Church and State

[Mama Mia]

In reading through threads I've found it really interesting that the U.S. makes a big deal about having a separation of Church and State , while in the U.K. there is an official state church, children are given bibles in school, the views of the church have an impact on legislation etc. - Yet it seems that it is in the U.S. that religion seems to have such a big sway culturally and is often a large part of policy making, and the feeling I get from the U.K. ( and other country ) posters is that the fact that there is an official church doesn't seem to be that big a deal or bother them.

Any thoughts ?

[yewchapel]

The Church of England is only the state church in England, not the UK. Wales and Northern Ireland have no state church (Northern Ireland for obvious reasons, Wales disestablished their state church) and the Church of Scotland is Presbyterian so a totally different denomination.

I am an Anglican (so a member of the Church of England) and I am in favour of disestablishment, and having no state religion. I don't think having a state church benefits the church or the state.

[JesusFightClub]

I think we're just used to it, really. Religion for most of us is a thing you do, not a thing you are. So we mostly don't define ourselves by religion, whereas my impression is that many Americans do feel that they are an embodiment of their religion (I don't mean here that they think they are perfect! Just that they see themselves as a living part of their religion, whereas we tend not to.)

For example British tourists who go to the US South are warned here that friendly people will invite them to church or ask about their church affiliation on a very short acquaintance indeed. That's kind of weird to us, it seems like a very personal question. It would never occur to me to ask that even if I had known someone for years. The advice is not to be offended and if you feel you can, to attend the church.

[yewchapel]

Also it's not just Bibles in church, there's prayer and hymns in school assemblies too, and the Christmas nativity play - it does seem so odd that US kids don't have these things that are just normal traditions for UK kids! Many state schools are faith schools (from all the main religions, and are open to kids not affilated to the faith the school is based in). Even many very secular parents are fine with sending their kids to faith schools, as often they have good results and the religious instruction is pretty much limited to assemblies and festivals - and with the exception of Catholic schools in Scotland (Scotland can control their education system separately), all faith schools must teach evolution, sex ed etc in order to be state-funded.

[VooDooChild]

Yeah but! "Murica was FOUNDED on Christianity. Therefore, only Christians can be in government and make the law and, and, blah, blah,blah.

I don't know where I'm going with this. It is something that bothers me with the fundies, as they seem to be hard up about America's Christian Roots, yet don't understand why there is separation of church and state. But I do wish Americans were more reserved about their religion. It's such a personal thing.

Also....my definition of the separation of church and state is a result of my former Christianity. Someone here mentioned an alternative understanding of why there is a separation that I found interesting at the time. However, I can't remember what it was. Anybody remember?

[cindyluvs24]

USA here: anything non-religious in school is OK so, snowman, Santa, reindeer and elves OK. Jesus in a manger not OK.

Student wants to silently pray before school? OK. Having the teacher lead the class in a prayer not OK. and so on.

[cindyluvs24]

Also, those fundies that claim that prayer in their public school is OK because everyone in their school is the same religion and no one would be excluded: my town is approx. 10% Jewish, 25% Hindu/Jain, and 25& Buddhist, 10& Muslim. The rest are various flavors of Christianity and no religioners. Exactly which religion is correct?

[ILoveJellybeans]

I noticed that-America has a seperation of church and state yet are mostly religious...but in the UK, we dont have one but nobody really cares because most people arent that religious. I was going to suggest we swap, but America needs it more with all the fundies, to prevent them taking over.

I hated doing prayers and stuff in school, I was raised without religion so when I started school I found it rather weird that school did all of those things, and thought prayer and stuff was just a weird thing that happened in schools at first, before I learned that people believed in things like that. I was an atheist from about age 7 although never really bought into religion before that, and our school had a lot of Muslims, and I thought that it was unfair for people who werent Christian. I enjoyed learning about religion, I always found it interesting, and our Religious Education classes were awesome because in High School we got to debate :D I just hated doing the prayers because I felt weird doing it as I felt fake, as I didnt believe. I dont know whether I could have told the teacher I wanted to opt out because I am an atheist, but nobody else said they had a problem with it so I didnt.

[OkToBeTakei]

I noticed that-America has a seperation of church and state yet are mostly religious...but in the UK, we dont have one but nobody really cares because most people arent that religious. I was going to suggest we swap, but America needs it more with all the fundies, to prevent them taking over.

I hated doing prayers and stuff in school, I was raised without religion so when I started school I found it rather weird that school did all of those things, and thought prayer and stuff was just a weird thing that happened in schools at first, before I learned that people believed in things like that. I was an atheist from about age 7 although never really bought into religion before that, and our school had a lot of Muslims, and I thought that it was unfair for people who werent Christian. I enjoyed learning about religion, I always found it interesting, and our Religious Education classes were awesome because in High School we got to debate :D I just hated doing the prayers because I felt weird doing it as I felt fake, as I didnt believe. I dont know whether I could have told the teacher I wanted to opt out because I am an atheist, but nobody else said they had a problem with it so I didnt.

To the bolded pretty much. Of course there are super religious people, but it just does not seem such a huge issue. Possibly because as JFC said it is a private thing.

Despite there being a state church it is nominally ceremonial a bit like the Queen. A left over from centuries ago. I suppose somebody could kick up a shit storm about it if they wanted, but nobody has really.

I find the US far more focussed on religion and politics than here. Case in point I had to ask what the fish symbol was :lol: Fat chance of seeing that on a car here without some serious side-eye.

What is really fascinating is that we do pray here at schools do the nativity thing etc. I think it is seen as just a school thing like lumpy custard and hideous school uniforms and how many girls can faint at assembly and at which hymn. You can be excused from it if you do not identify with said religion. Whereas in the US where religion plays such a huge part in every other aspect that it is not allowed in schools. Although does school not start with a pledge of Allegiance which covers the god thing anyway?

[debrand]

In reading through threads I've found it really interesting that the U.S. makes a big deal about having a separation of Church and State , while in the U.K. there is an official state church, children are given bibles in school, the views of the church have an impact on legislation etc. - Yet it seems that it is in the U.S. that religion seems to have such a big sway culturally and is often a large part of policy making, and the feeling I get from the U.K. ( and other country ) posters is that the fact that there is an official church doesn't seem to be that big a deal or bother them.

Any thoughts ?

What is ironic is most fundamentalists view Europe as the evil, godless place.

I've wondered if somehow having an official state church makes cultures less religious. Maybe being forced to worship makes people less inclined to be fanatical? It is probably harder to have a persecution complex in U.K. when the school gives out bibles.

[miffy]

I'm fairly sure state schools in Australia teach RE but its not compulsory. We don't even have a state religion but if I remember correctly about 40% of people are Catholic or Anglican.

I went to an Anglican school so obviously we did do RE, had a school church service at the cathedral in the city, assemblies were pretty much a mass. etc etc There was a not orthodox but very devout Jewish girl in my class, some kind of Pentecostal, Lutherans in my class.

[OkToBeTakei]

What is ironic is most fundamentalists view Europe as the evil, godless place.

I've wondered if somehow having an official state church makes cultures less religious. Maybe being forced to worship makes people less inclined to be fanatical? It is probably harder to have a persecution complex in U.K. when the school gives out bibles.

It affected me so much I did not know there was an official church until not so very long ago :lol:

[Joan of Snarc]

To the bolded pretty much. Of course there are super religious people, but it just does not seem such a huge issue. Possibly because as JFC said it is a private thing.

Despite there being a state church it is nominally ceremonial a bit like the Queen. A left over from centuries ago. I suppose somebody could kick up a shit storm about it if they wanted, but nobody has really.

I find the US far more focussed on religion and politics than here. Case in point I had to ask what the fish symbol was :lol: Fat chance of seeing that on a car here without some serious side-eye.

What is really fascinating is that we do pray here at schools do the nativity thing etc. I think it is seen as just a school thing like lumpy custard and hideous school uniforms and how many girls can faint at assembly and at which hymn. You can be excused from it if you do not identify with said religion. Whereas in the US where religion plays such a huge part in every other aspect that it is not allowed in schools. Although does school not start with a pledge of Allegiance which covers the god thing anyway?

Yes, school does start with the Pledge and God is included but it's more a patriotic thing. It's a pledge of allegiance to country, with God thrown in there. Our school district starts the day with the Pledge and then has a moment of silence, which I think is a nice compromise for everybody. Those who wish can pray, those who wish can just breathe deeply and relax a minute, and those who are like my boys can just zone out for minute.

:eusa-whistle:

[OkToBeTakei]

Yes, school does start with the Pledge and God is included but it's more a patriotic thing. It's a pledge of allegiance to country, with God thrown in there. Our school district starts the day with the Pledge and then has a moment of silence, which I think is a nice compromise for everybody. Those who wish can pray, those who wish can just breathe deeply and relax a minute, and those who are like my boys can just zone out for minute.

:eusa-whistle:

You know what is funny? I would hazard a guess that there would be a HUGE stink here if they tried to get schools to pledge allegiance to the Queen or country but nobody seems to care about throwing out a quick Our Father or Jerusalem :think:

[Joan of Snarc]

These things largely become rote and meaningless over time.

Thank Spaghetti Monster/God/Save the Queen.

;)

[yewchapel]

When I was 8, I was an atheist. I refused to join the Brownies (UK Girl Scouts) because you have to pledge allegiance to the Queen, but somehow didn't mind singing hymns (I enjoyed singing and sometimes we had weird secular hymns about the environment lol) or the prayers (I just thought my own thoughts during them, like being grateful for food and clothes or what was for lunch today). Go figure ;)

[OkToBeTakei]

When I was 8, I was an atheist. I refused to join the Brownies (UK Girl Scouts) because you have to pledge allegiance to the Queen, but somehow didn't mind singing hymns (I enjoyed singing and sometimes we had weird secular hymns about the environment lol) or the prayers (I just thought my own thoughts during them, like being grateful for food and clothes or what was for lunch today). Go figure ;)

I went to the Brownies but I was no moral warrior I just liked 'Ladders' and my best friend went. God I was shallow :lol:

My life of course would not be complete without my Hostess Badge.

[Joan of Snarc]

We had Brownies too -- pre-Girl Scouts. I was a major Badge Collector.

Kind of like these two:

:o :lol: :oops:

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

I think we're just used to it, really. Religion for most of us is a thing you do, not a thing you are. So we mostly don't define ourselves by religion, whereas my impression is that many Americans do feel that they are an embodiment of their religion (I don't mean here that they think they are perfect! Just that they see themselves as a living part of their religion, whereas we tend not to.)

For example British tourists who go to the US South are warned here that friendly people will invite them to church or ask about their church affiliation on a very short acquaintance indeed. That's kind of weird to us, it seems like a very personal question. It would never occur to me to ask that even if I had known someone for years. The advice is not to be offended and if you feel you can, to attend the church.

Believe me, it's VERY weird for those of us who are not from the South as well. My job might take me anywhere in the next 5 years, and I'm really worried about finding myself in a place where everyone is all up in your face about church and Jesus all the time. :?

[OkToBeTakei]

We had Brownies too -- pre-Girl Scouts. I was a major Badge Collector.

Kind of like these two:

:o :lol: :oops:

Holy shit :lol: :lol:

[m_mdon]

Yes, school does start with the Pledge and God is included but it's more a patriotic thing. It's a pledge of allegiance to country, with God thrown in there. Our school district starts the day with the Pledge and then has a moment of silence, which I think is a nice compromise for everybody. Those who wish can pray, those who wish can just breathe deeply and relax a minute, and those who are like my boys can just zone out for minute.

:eusa-whistle:

Up until the 1950's the Pledge didn't even include the words "Under God", it was thrown in at the height of the Cold War to separate ourselves from the ebil Godless Commies

[constantgardener]

Without intending any disrespect to Anglicans here, I think in many ways the Church of England is seen as a bit of a joke, or just not relevant to people's lives. I don't know what the figures are for C of E regular church attendance but I don't think they are high for a supposedly 'state' church. If we were talking about, say, fundie Baptists or ebil Muslims involved in running state schools perhaps more people would have something to say about it. Just because it's historic or traditional does not make it right for members of one church above any other to have a say in educating our children or passing our laws (i.e. in the House of Lords). My mum was taken out of assemblies when she was at school in the 50's and 60's because she was Catholic, and England was a Catholic country long before the C of E was invented!

[yewchapel]

Constantgardener, Baptists (who are not fundie in the UK) and Muslims DO run state schools, as do Catholics, Quakers, Jews, Methodists and Hindus (and doubtless more groups as well). There are plenty of non-CoE faith schools in England.

[constantgardener]

Constantgardener, Baptists (who are not fundie in the UK) and Muslims DO run state schools, as do Catholics, Quakers, Jews, Methodists and Hindus (and doubtless more groups as well). There are plenty of non-CoE faith schools in England.

Yes, I know there are other faith-run state schools (I am in England :D) but they are not really on the same scale as C of E schools. I live in a rural area and luckily our village school is non-denominational. But if I had lived in the next village, I would have had the choice of a C of E school, or driving my kids several miles to a different village. My issue is that it is so unquestioning accepted that it is OK for religious organisations to be running schools. I have no objection to my children learning about religion as a subject, but I do object to a single denomination being part of the fabric of the organisation.

[valsa]

Sidetracking back to the U.S., I'm personally not in favor of reciting the Pledge of Allegiance (with or without the God part) because it still runs the risk of singling out certain children (just like prayer in school can single out non-Christian children) In high school, one of my classmates couldn't say the Pledge because she was a JW and in a group of 100-120 student, that kind of thing can stick out.