Frank Peretti On Atheism

[debrand]

anna.xanga.com/70328771/item/

 

When I was a Christian, I read a couple of his books. Although I halfway enjoyed them, I can't say that he is the greatest writer. He tells interesting stories-or at least that is what I remember.

 

 

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It's kind of a betrayal of the athiest starts to ask questions like 'why are we here?', because if they are able to ask that kind of question, because he's proving he's a person, which means his source had to be a person, too, which means the ultimate reality of the universe is personal and not impersonal. When they say 'we gotta do good for the community'... well, how do you measure good when you have no standard with which to measure good? If you're going to be a good athiest/humanist, you have to believe what is, is. It's not good, it's not bad, it just... is. There's no fixed point of reference!

 

This is a common argument aimed at atheists. No matter how we answer it, it keeps getting asked. The question is not really, how can atheist be good but why would they be good? How do atheists decide what is good?

 

This is my opinion and mine only. I believe that humans evolved to be social. We need each other. Like it or not, we are dependent on one another for survival. It makes sense to want a peaceful society. Alturism makes sense because it helps the entire community survive. A lot of morals are actually very logical when you think about it. It doesn't make sense, for example, to kill off the oldest members of society because they offer knowledge and experience to the younger generation. Studies have even shown that the presence of grandmothers helps children survive to adulthood. Morality is actually rational

 

 

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And then they ask "Well, how do you define God?" It's not up to man to define God. God is not a matter of opinion. He's the great 'I am that I am', not 'I am... uh, whaddya want me to be'? He's not here to please you. He is here to be pleased and worshipped. And if you want to know God, you have to know Him as He is. Your opinion don't amount to diddly-squat.

 

So, atheists have to play by rules that Christians do not have to use. I should define and explain where my morals come from but Peretti doesn't have to do the same.

 

Continued in next post

[debrand]

For example] Kids... welcome to Biology 101. We're gonna learn lots of fun things in this class - but the first thing you need to know is that you are an accident! You have absolutely no reason for being here. There is no meaning or purpose for your life, you are merely a conglomeration of molecules that came together purely by chance billions and billions of years ago. All the dust and the gas in the galaxy floated around for who-knows-how-long, and then they bumped into each other and said "I know, let's be organic". So they became organic. And... they became what you are today - from goo to you by way of the zoo. As such, you really have no reason for being here. Your existance is pointless and the universe won't mind a bit when you die. And when you die, you just become someone's compost. (((RING!!))) Class dismissed, head on down to that new class we're starting this week on 'self-esteem'.

Lots of religious people have difficulty with the ambiguity. They want certain, exact answers and are willing to follow religion to have the answers laid out for them.(I am not talking about all religious people) There is nothing wrong with that. If you find peace in a particular faith and its answers, I support you. How can I criticize someone for following what brings them comfort? However, please don't misconstrue why some of us can't believe. I like the thought that we have star dust in us. It seems almost romantic to me. The fact that I decide my own course and there isn't a grand plan laid out for me is beautiful. It makes life seem all the more precious.

[Ava]

People who ask why atheists bother to be good kind of scare me. Aside from the insulting factor, it implies that the only reason they follow any kind of moral code is because of the threat of divine punishment for it at some point - that they can't decide what's good and bad for themselves and they have no real issues on a personal level with, say, murdering a bunch of people, they only don't do it because it's the rules and you get punished for breaking the rules. And then of course with Christianity, if you break the rules and then say you're sorry about it later, you don't get punished anyway so in theory there ought to be a lot of Christians doing immoral things out there...

Ambiguity / lack of concrete answers for some things seems to be a big issue with a lot of religious folks and atheism, and with science as well. Maybe that's why so many conflate the two. "I don't know" is a perfectly valid answer to a question in science (or really more like "I don't know...yet"), but a lot of religious people seem to take having to say "I don't know" as a sign of failure - if your scientific theory or philosophical outlook or whatever it is can't provide a concrete answer to every single thing in the universe, the whole thing is wrong. And of course Christians always get to fall back on "God did it" or "because God said so" as a reason so their religion is never susceptible to this.

And you know what? I don't get it. I don't the feeling of having to have an answer to everything when there are so many things that you literally can't know. What happens after we die? There's no way for you to know that, you can only make theories. Are there other intelligent life forms in the universe? There's no way for you to know that either. Same thing with having a "purpose" in life. Why does it have to be that someone put you here for some specific reason, why can't you just be here for no particular reason? Is the idea really that horrible? I'd rather have that than thinking I was created only to worship the entity that created me and I will be punished for all of eternity if I want to do something else with my existence.

[Guest Anonymous]

It's kind of a betrayal of the athiest starts to ask questions like 'why are we here?', because if they are able to ask that kind of question, because he's proving he's a person, which means his source had to be a person, too, which means the ultimate reality of the universe is personal and not impersonal.

That is not a logical progression of thought. "I'm saying the word 'person', I'm saying that word a lot, I'm imbuing that word with some kind of mystical meaning, and I believe this allows me to draw a conclusion that has absolutely no basis in fact!" :roll:

[doggie]

I agree with all of the above. Man has been searching for the meaning of life forever. To think you can just pick up a book and learn it is the ultimate fools dream. As the a very old Chinese saying goes. To know us to know that to know is not to know.

Nothing wrong about using religion for comfort. There is wrong condemning others for not believing like you do. Or using said beliefs to force others to obey you.

Christians have proven throughout time they are no better then anyone else and often worse. The fool thinks he knows the wisest know it is impossible to know

[debrand]

That is not a logical progression of thought. "I'm saying the word 'person', I'm saying that word a lot, I'm imbuing that word with some kind of mystical meaning, and I believe this allows me to draw a conclusion that has absolutely no basis in fact!" :roll:

I really didn't understand what he meant by that statement. Was he saying that atheists aren't people because they don't believe in the Christian god? The Christian god is not a person, it is a spirit. Even Jesus is not a person in the sense that we think of a person. He is fully god and fully human combined. So, his statement about 'his source had to be a person." doesn't make sense to me either. Also, why does questioning why 'we' are here mean that the answer has to be to serve god? Some people might feel that their reason for life is to help others or to raise a family.

[linnea27]

Christians always do a great job of making god sound like a prick even as they are singing his praises. "He is here to be pleased and worshipped"? Really? Well, then sign me up for Christianity! :eyeroll:

[wtfrenchtoast]

I too see no horror in my life not having some grand, overarching purpose. It's enough for me that I'm here, now. I don't know how I got here, or why, if there is indeed a reason. But that doesn't scare me. I don't need my life to have some big grand meaning. It has meaning to me, and that's enough. It's enough for me to want to make the fullest of my life because its the only one I get. I'll decide the purpose of my life, thank you very much.

[AnnieC 305]

People who ask why atheists bother to be good kind of scare me. Aside from the insulting factor, it implies that the only reason they follow any kind of moral code is because of the threat of divine punishment for it at some point - that they can't decide what's good and bad for themselves and they have no real issues on a personal level with, say, murdering a bunch of people, they only don't do it because it's the rules and you get punished for breaking the rules. And then of course with Christianity, if you break the rules and then say you're sorry about it later, you don't get punished anyway so in theory there ought to be a lot of Christians doing immoral things out there...

Anyone else suddenly thinking of making a list of alllll the Christians caught doing exactly what they swore the evil atheists/liberals/whatalls were doing?

[Kitty]

I too see no horror in my life not having some grand, overarching purpose. It's enough for me that I'm here, now. I don't know how I got here, or why, if there is indeed a reason. But that doesn't scare me. I don't need my life to have some big grand meaning. It has meaning to me, and that's enough. It's enough for me to want to make the fullest of my life because its the only one I get. I'll decide the purpose of my life, thank you very much.

This.

I could never be a part of a religion that stated what my life's purpose was, especially if it prescribed the same purpose to half of all of the other believers. Which in turn is why I could not be fundie or fundie-lite, in which my only purpose would be to be a wife and mother. Couldn't do it. Isn't it off how the other half would get to be more than just husbands and fathers?

I went on a bit of a tangent there, but part of the reason I became an atheist was because I could not reconcile evangelical Christianity with feminism.

[debrand]

lionandlambministry.com/index.php/liontube/video/442/The-Chair-by-Frank-Peretti---10-21-05-Full-Version

I found the full version. It is 43 minutes and I can't hear it. My computer doesn't have sound and my son would probably rebel if I took over his computer. LOL

But for some of the more patient members here, maybe you'd like to listen.

I did read the comments and found this a bit depressing

Great Message

I had the privilege of seeing Frank Peretti live in Colorado Springs several years ago. This message made such an impact on me, I have never forgotten it. In an age where there are so many messages teaching us how to have self-esteem, Frank makes it clear that we find our value in God. Without Him we have no self-worth. He is our fixed point of reference. When you take God our of the equation, you are left with nothing.