Your loved one died so that God could teach you a lesson

[MagicalMuggle]

My son died in February. I think the things said to me that hurt the most were:

"Your son died for a reason you just don't know it yet." The reason he died was because he collided with a tree.

"When one door closes another opens" uhhh so God killed my son so a door would open?

"God needed an angel" really?

"We never know the reason God takes those from us" well again I'm sure I know the reason, its called an accident.

"Maybe God is trying to teach you something" that he is a jerk?

"God never gives us more then we can handle" So God knows how much I can handle but chooses to test my breaking point.?

I have foster kids, rescued dogs, tried my hardest, made mistakes but learned from them, tried hard to be honest, given to charities (time and money), be considerate, be ethical, be accepting, and be forgiving. I have not killed a human, stolen, cheated on my taxes, or abused a child. But because I do not live my life according to the fundementalist Christian ethics I deserve to have my son die?

Bad things happen to everyone, some things are worse then others. The measure of a person is not the amount of punishment heap on by an omniscient "God" it is the choices a person makes be they good or bad.

I am so sorry for your loss. :cry:

The whole 'God never gives us more then we can handle' line always makes me want to go hurt somebody because it's a load of crap! I cringe every time someone says or types it. They have no idea what the hell they are talking about and just repeating the usual christian cliches.

[mockingbird]

I am so sorry to all the moms on here who have lost children :( And for the things people have said to you. I think it is very low to tell someone in a very vulnerable state that they caused this mess by sinning (seems very manipulative) and/or that they didn't deserve to have that person with them for whatever reason (God needed an angel, for another door to open, etc).

Things like "everything happens for a reason" and "God never gives you more than you can handle" were thrown around in my home a lot growing up which was middle of the road Catholic. I have to say I personally still believe in these in a way. "God never gives you more than you can handle" is a way of reminding myself that I will be able to get through whatever is going on. I don't really think God is "giving" the bad things in the world, they just happen, but rather that faith can bring you peace in those times. So a more accurate rephrasing of what I believe would be "stuff is going to happen, but you can handle it through God". And I do think everything happens for a reason, I think you can believe that outside of religion, and to me it is just an expression of hope, like that in a bad time, I am going to come out stronger or find something good again, or that if I am not looking forward to something maybe it will be better than I thought. In terms of my faith I don't think God is giving us bad things specifically for any reason, or purposely causing say, a death to happen so that you can learn from it, but just that bad stuff will happen, and again that you can find peace or strength in religion. Anyway, I do think many people believe these statements literally and I don't agree with that. Personally I find it helpful in sorting through things, after being upset or angry, to find a positive I can focus on so these statements kind-of reflect that (rather than suppressing feelings), but I know everyone processes things differently and I don't mean to shame anyone who doesn't feel the same way. Just thought I would offer a (hopefully) non-fundy perspective on these sayings. I don't say these things to people outside of my immediate family who also say them all the time. I think they can actually be really dismissive of someone's feelings and have felt that even though I do believe in these things. If you are grieving and someone tells you it happened for a reason it can make you feel like they think you shouldn't be upset, or that God doesn't give you more than you can handle, that you are not coping "appropriately", for example.

ETA: I don't agree with the post at all and I find it sad and extreme. I don't think God kills people to teach people on Earth a lesson :shock: (I thought he said he stopped that in the Old Testament, after the Flood?) and I also don't really think everything always reflects back on you personally and God teaching you something, sometimes things just happen. I just use the above sayings in a way.

[samithemage]

This sort of thinking is what made me fall away from religion. I ended up coming to the conclusion that if god is all powerful and all knowing, he clearly can't be all good, because he "created" hell and tries to teach us "lessons" through pain and death. That kind of god is an asshole. If I treated a child the way that god supposedly treats mankind, I'd be in jail for abuse. God could be all good, but then hell and the terrible things that happen to people couldn't be a part of his control, so s/he's not all powerful. Those ideals just aren't reconcilable.

[wtfrenchtoast]

I don't believe that everything happens for a reason at all. That belief became very concrete for me this summer, when a terrible man opened fire in a movie theater a mere seven miles away from me. A six year old girl sustained multiple gunshot wounds. She died. So did the baby her mother was carrying. No one can ever, ever convince me there was a reason for that. If someone ever tries to tell me that that poor little girl died so that some person could "find Jesus", I would probably punch them in the face. A six year old girl had her life ripped from her in one of the most terrible ways imaginable, so that Jesus could get a little more worship? Please. That's fucked up on a serious level.

[FeministShrew]

I'm sorry for your loss, GiGi.

I have to say I'm so glad to finally found a group of human beings who feel the same way I do about so many things. I'm surrounded by Christians, mostly fundie & fundielite, & I have to bite my tongue every day about something. You guys are awesome!

[latraviata]

My son died in February. I think the things said to me that hurt the most were:

"Your son died for a reason you just don't know it yet." The reason he died was because he collided with a tree.

"When one door closes another opens" uhhh so God killed my son so a door would open?

"God needed an angel" really?

"We never know the reason God takes those from us" well again I'm sure I know the reason, its called an accident.

"Maybe God is trying to teach you something" that he is a jerk?

"God never gives us more then we can handle" So God knows how much I can handle but chooses to test my breaking point.?

I have foster kids, rescued dogs, tried my hardest, made mistakes but learned from them, tried hard to be honest, given to charities (time and money), be considerate, be ethical, be accepting, and be forgiving. I have not killed a human, stolen, cheated on my taxes, or abused a child. But because I do not live my life according to the fundementalist Christian ethics I deserve to have my son die?

Bad things happen to everyone, some things are worse then others. The measure of a person is not the amount of punishment heap on by an omniscient "God" it is the choices a person makes be they good or bad.

Everything you say, applies for me too! I know exactly what you are going through, don't let this utter stupidity get to you. The situation is difficult enough, without the ignorance and cruelty of the so called believers. Apparantly they are not able to deal with real emotions and have to rely on fairytales because reality is too difficult.

There is simply no answer to the 'why did this happen' other than bad luck, so they (the believers) just invent the answers, especially those who have never experienced anything like this.

Hugs!

[themadapple]

I don't believe that everything happens for a reason at all. That belief became very concrete for me this summer, when a terrible man opened fire in a movie theater a mere seven miles away from me. A six year old girl sustained multiple gunshot wounds. She died. So did the baby her mother was carrying. No one can ever, ever convince me there was a reason for that. If someone ever tries to tell me that that poor little girl died so that some person could "find Jesus", I would probably punch them in the face. A six year old girl had her life ripped from her in one of the most terrible ways imaginable, so that Jesus could get a little more worship? Please. That's fucked up on a serious level.

I think it's difficult for some people to handle the fact that traumatic events can be senseless and without a concrete purpose. But I would be seriously enraged to have someone tell me that a loved one died because it was god's will or similar. Not only is it disrespectful (whether intentionally or not), but it would serve to discount and even invalidate my feelings. Apparently, some seem to think that we're not supposed to feel sickened and distraught when some person goes apeshit and ruthlessly slaughters a group of innocent people.

[formergothardite]

That's awesome. Are you taking full responsibility for these words?

Do you still see bands of harpies roaming the streets berating their husbands every place you go?

The hive doesn't forget. I did, but the hive sure didn't! :lol:

[Maude]

My son died in February. I think the things said to me that hurt the most were:

"Your son died for a reason you just don't know it yet." The reason he died was because he collided with a tree.

"When one door closes another opens" uhhh so God killed my son so a door would open?

"God needed an angel" really?

"We never know the reason God takes those from us" well again I'm sure I know the reason, its called an accident.

"Maybe God is trying to teach you something" that he is a jerk?

"God never gives us more then we can handle" So God knows how much I can handle but chooses to test my breaking point.?

I have foster kids, rescued dogs, tried my hardest, made mistakes but learned from them, tried hard to be honest, given to charities (time and money), be considerate, be ethical, be accepting, and be forgiving. I have not killed a human, stolen, cheated on my taxes, or abused a child. But because I do not live my life according to the fundementalist Christian ethics I deserve to have my son die?

Bad things happen to everyone, some things are worse then others. The measure of a person is not the amount of punishment heap on by an omniscient "God" it is the choices a person makes be they good or bad.

I'm sorry about your son, Gigi. I heard many of the same things when my sister passed away. Though generally well-meaning, I don't think people realize just how condescending those statements are. Saying "God never gives you more than you can handle" is a slap in the face to people everywhere who struggle and suffer from one thing or another. To buy into that, you basically have to be either extremely privileged (lucky) or extremely gullible.

[ElphabaGalinda]

The hive doesn't forget. I did, but the hive sure didn't! :lol:

I forgot too...great memory Lissar! I rarely remember stuff like that.

[Guest Anonymous]

The hive doesn't forget. I did, but the hive sure didn't! :lol:

That "I take full responsibility for my words" comment after she scampered off and quit posting for a month rather than do that very thing was just too much for me.

[MrsKay]

What thread was that, Lissar? I want to go back and read now!

[Guest Anonymous]

What thread was that, Lissar? I want to go back and read now!

This one: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=12597

[kb2]

I'm sorry for everyone's losses.

One the one hand, it seems weird that people haven't caught on to the "platitudes might be hurtful, maybe don't use them unless you know the grieving person will actually feel better," idea, but it seems like whenever bad things happen, people post them all over Facebook. So I guess that hasn't really caught on.

Also, that post reminded me of this take on the song "Christmas Shoes":

iq10bz3PxyY

[MagicalMuggle]

That "I take full responsibility for my words" comment after she scampered off and quit posting for a month rather than do that very thing was just too much for me.

Not that it's any of your business but I've been going through all kinds of hell the past month or so and the last thing I was concerned about was coming on here to answer your snarky bullshit remarks. I don't care if you don't agree with anything I say but you don't have to act like a b!tch about it.

Oh yes, I take full responsibility for those words. I said them as I was transitioning myself out of fundamentalist Christianity.

Next time you want to belittle people, make sure your past is clean. Karma's a b!tch.

[Guest Anonymous]

Not that it's any of your business but I've been going through all kinds of hell the past month or so and the last thing I was concerned about was coming on here to answer your snarky bullshit remarks. I don't care if you don't agree with anything I say but you don't have to act like a b!tch about it.

Oh yes, I take full responsibility for those words. I said them as I was transitioning myself out of fundamentalist Christianity.

Next time you want to belittle people, make sure your past is clean. Karma's a b!tch.

Somebody call Alecto and tell her to change the name of the forum. Apparently, we're not supposed to snark! :roll:

[slh12280]

I am so sorry to all the moms on here who have lost children :( And for the things people have said to you. I think it is very low to tell someone in a very vulnerable state that they caused this mess by sinning (seems very manipulative) and/or that they didn't deserve to have that person with them for whatever reason (God needed an angel, for another door to open, etc).

Things like "everything happens for a reason" and "God never gives you more than you can handle" were thrown around in my home a lot growing up which was middle of the road Catholic. I have to say I personally still believe in these in a way. "God never gives you more than you can handle" is a way of reminding myself that I will be able to get through whatever is going on. I don't really think God is "giving" the bad things in the world, they just happen, but rather that faith can bring you peace in those times. So a more accurate rephrasing of what I believe would be "stuff is going to happen, but you can handle it through God". And I do think everything happens for a reason, I think you can believe that outside of religion, and to me it is just an expression of hope, like that in a bad time, I am going to come out stronger or find something good again, or that if I am not looking forward to something maybe it will be better than I thought. In terms of my faith I don't think God is giving us bad things specifically for any reason, or purposely causing say, a death to happen so that you can learn from it, but just that bad stuff will happen, and again that you can find peace or strength in religion. Anyway, I do think many people believe these statements literally and I don't agree with that. Personally I find it helpful in sorting through things, after being upset or angry, to find a positive I can focus on so these statements kind-of reflect that (rather than suppressing feelings), but I know everyone processes things differently and I don't mean to shame anyone who doesn't feel the same way. Just thought I would offer a (hopefully) non-fundy perspective on these sayings. I don't say these things to people outside of my immediate family who also say them all the time. I think they can actually be really dismissive of someone's feelings and have felt that even though I do believe in these things. If you are grieving and someone tells you it happened for a reason it can make you feel like they think you shouldn't be upset, or that God doesn't give you more than you can handle, that you are not coping "appropriately", for example.

ETA: I don't agree with the post at all and I find it sad and extreme. I don't think God kills people to teach people on Earth a lesson :shock: (I thought he said he stopped that in the Old Testament, after the Flood?) and I also don't really think everything always reflects back on you personally and God teaching you something, sometimes things just happen. I just use the above sayings in a way.

All of this is what I believe.

[Guest Anonymous]

Not that it's any of your business but I've been going through all kinds of hell the past month or so and the last thing I was concerned about was coming on here to answer your snarky bullshit remarks. I don't care if you don't agree with anything I say but you don't have to act like a b!tch about it.

Oh yes, I take full responsibility for those words. I said them as I was transitioning myself out of fundamentalist Christianity.

Next time you want to belittle people, make sure your past is clean. Karma's a b!tch.

Could someone tell me the point of name calling but not actually spelling it out? Is that supposed to make it nicer? Does one feel less guilty about spouting misogynistic slurs if one uses an exclamation point instead of an "i"?

I didn't belittle you, for what it's worth. I didn't call you any names, either. I asked you a question. If you don't agree with those remarks that you made, then you can state that you no longer agree with them and apologize and I bet most people would give you another chance. I would. But when you're stating on your blog that you're "not an anti keeper at home feminist" and saying nasty things about women on a largely feminist forum, you can expect to meet some pushback.

You are not the only snowflake that has left fundamentalism behind. I have been there and so have lots of other people on this forum. Yeah, it takes some time to sort through it (years, often!) but that doesn't give you a "get out of saying fucked up stuff free" card.

[GiGi_41]

Thank you everyone for your thoughts!

Life goes on whether you want it to or not.

GiGi

[phoenissadido]

I'm so sorry for everyone's loss. I've had a bunch of near and dear (old) relatives die in the past year and one of them died when I was on a study abroad trip with a Baptist university from Texas (if you've guessed it, you're probably). As well meaning as they were, it was just uncomfortable and painful being around so many people (professors, too!*) who were obviously "okay"** with the fact that I was in pain because it meant I could be brought to God...sigh. It wasn't even like they thought a heathen family member of mine was going to Heaven.

*I know that obviously a private Christian school is allowed to proselytize to students, but I couldn't shake the "isn't this illegal?" feeling every time they said grace or prayed as a group.

** Obviously they weren't gleeful, but sometimes knowing what's in someone else's head is still hard to deal with when they've got religion oozing out of every pore.

[Koala]

Could someone tell me the point of name calling but not actually spelling it out? Is that supposed to make it nicer? Does one feel less guilty about spouting misogynistic slurs if one uses an exclamation point instead of an "i"?

I didn't belittle you, for what it's worth. I didn't call you any names, either. I asked you a question. If you don't agree with those remarks that you made, then you can state that you no longer agree with them and apologize and I bet most people would give you another chance. I would. But when you're stating on your blog that you're "not an anti keeper at home feminist" and saying nasty things about women on a largely feminist forum, you can expect to meet some pushback.

You are not the only snowflake that has left fundamentalism behind. I have been there and so have lots of other people on this forum. Yeah, it takes some time to sort through it (years, often!) but that doesn't give you a "get out of saying fucked up stuff free" card.

Didn't you know, nice ladies don't say "bitch", they say "b!tch". It's much more polite. :roll: Anyway, if you call someone on their shit that makes you a total B!tch! Just like those nasty b!tchy wives who n@g their saintly husbands.

[outrunningzombies]

Gigi, I'm sorry for your loss.

I'm convinced that people who spew mindless platitudes have never been close to tragedy. I don't think God killed my cousin's father a week before her wedding to teach her to cherish life; I think he had a massive heart attack at a terrible time because life is just horrible sometimes. It's not something you can rationalize, it just is.

[DarkAnts]

Why do these people think that god micromanages their lives?

I personally think that god has better things to do then toy with our lives in abusive ways. For starters, there are millions of children out there going hungry. If there is a god then I hope they are working to help bring them food.

[DistantStar]

Perhaps I'm strange, but I find the idea that things like death just happen a hell of a lot more comforting than the idea that Somebody decided to, say, yank my dad away when I was 17. And if anybody tries to tell me that there was a reason for that to happen to him they'll shortly be meeting my friend Mr. 2x4.

Many hugs to you, Gigi, and to everybody here who has lost family or other loved ones. It's hard.

[JesusFightClub]

Hugs to you, GiGi. I am very sorry for your loss.

As I mentioned elsewhere I lost a relative to murder and I'm utterly bewildered as to what God would have been thinking. "I'd like to torment two families, one of which is dealing with severe mental health issues and substance abuse, the other which is facing two relatives on trial for knife crime. They haven't had enough in the way of pain so let's have one of them kill the other."

I strongly feel that he had bugger all to do with it :)