Mormon Marriage Crisis

[Fundilicious]

http://www.joshweed.com/2012/06/club-un ... ut-of.html

 

Has anyone read this? It's been floating around on Facebook. It's not much related in terms of fundies, so maybe this belongs in chatter (so MODS feel free to move).

 

I'm not sure how I feel about it. I want this man to be happy. He seems happy, but I guess there is no way to know unless I jumped into his body for a day.

[Witsec7]

When I was an embalmer we did a lot of work for LDS. The local Bishop was gay and always had a young man on his arm when he visited with the owner in the private areas of the mortuary.

[gustava]

I have a hard time believing that he's sexual attracted ONLY to men, yet has a good sex life with his wife, a woman.

[DarkAnts]

The mormons will let homosexuals in the church and some even have temple recommends (this depends on the bishop in the ward). They just have to either be celibate and not in a homosexual relationship or they have to pretend to be cured and live a heterosexual life.

[Soldevi]

I have a hard time believing that he's sexual attracted ONLY to men, yet has a good sex life with his wife, a woman.

This. Saying this as a bisexual myself. I have bi friends who say they are more attracted with another sex yet enjoy making love better with another sex. Maybe there is something like that behind this? And this is not new, many of bisexuals don't categorise themselves as ones, they only see two slots: heteros and homosexuals. This might be because bisexuals tend to be seen worse than ones who are strictly gays or strictly straights. You see, we bis fuck everything with two feet from ladders to chickens...

[gustava]

This. Saying this as a bisexual myself. I have bi friends who say they are more attracted with another sex yet enjoy making love better with another sex. Maybe there is something like that behind this? And this is not new, many of bisexuals don't categorise themselves as ones, they only see two slots: heteros and homosexuals. This might be because bisexuals tend to be seen worse than ones who are strictly gays or strictly straights. You see, we bis fuck everything with two feet from ladders to chickens...

Rubbing my chin and pondering other two footed things..... :lol: :lol: :lol:

[QAF_Rocks]

During our conversation, she told me about her life with her partner. She spoke of a girl, whom she considered her daughter, who is the biological child of her ex-lover, with whom she lived for only three years. She told me of how much she loved her daughter, but how infrequently she got to see her. And eventually, when talking about my sex life, she said “well, that’s good you enjoy sex with your wife, but I think it’s sad that you have to settle for something that is counterfeit.â€

I was a little taken aback by this idea—I don’t consider my sex-life to be counterfeit. In response, I jokingly said “and I’m sorry that you have to settle for a counterfeit family.†She immediately saw my point and apologized for that comment. Obviously, I don’t actually think a family with non-biological members is counterfeit in any way. I also don’t feel that my sex-life is counterfeit. They are both examples of something that is different than the ideal. I made that joke to illustrate a point. If you are gay, you will have to choose to fill in the gaps somewhere. She chose to have a family in a way that is different than the ideal. I choose to enjoy sex in a way that is different than the ideal for a gay man. It all comes down to what you choose and why, and knowing what you want for yourself and why you want it. That’s basically what life is all about.

Something about this rubs me the wrong way. He seems to be pointing to the therapist's family as an example of not being the ideal. But the fact that she rarely gets to see her daughter isn't because she had to "fill in the gaps" by having a non-biological child. Her situation is because they broke up and her relationship to her daughter must not have been recognized by law. Biology has nothing to do with it. If she'd been a straight, married man who had adopted a child or had a non-biological child through donor insemination, that relationship would have been honored and respected by the courts, and she would have been entitled to joint custody. Of course, if they'd stayed together, there would have been no problem, but I doubt the author would see it that way. He seems to think that having non-biological children is inherently settling for less than the ideal.

[Guest Anonymous]

Something about this rubs me the wrong way. He seems to be pointing to the therapist's family as an example of not being the ideal. But the fact that she rarely gets to see her daughter isn't because she had to "fill in the gaps" by having a non-biological child. Her situation is because they broke up and her relationship to her daughter must not have been recognized by law. Biology has nothing to do with it. If she'd been a straight, married man who had adopted a child or had a non-biological child through donor insemination, that relationship would have been honored and respected by the courts, and she would have been entitled to joint custody. Of course, if they'd stayed together, there would have been no problem, but I doubt the author would see it that way. He seems to think that having non-biological children is inherently settling for less than the ideal.

I think that he has to think of it as a definite choice or sacrifice to justify to himself why he is doing what he is doing. You can have a 'real family' or you can be in a gay relationship. Nothing else.

[Kathryn31]

I am LDS and I cry foul. My friends who are gay could NOT have sex with a woman just as a straight person could not have "fulfilling sex" with a person of the same gender. You can't "pray the gay away". Something seems really off with this story and I have read it several times...thinking there will be more to this couples story in the years to come.

[QAF_Rocks]

I think that he has to think of it as a definite choice or sacrifice to justify to himself why he is doing what he is doing. You can have a 'real family' or you can be in a gay relationship. Nothing else.

That's a good insight! I think it must be the way he rationalizes it to himself. If he were in a same-sex relationship, he thinks that he would have to give up his ideal family. He probably doesn't think that he could have just as fulfilling a parenting experience with adopted children.

[QAF_Rocks]

Not sure what I think about the article overall. Human sexuality can be complicated. I have no doubt that many gay men do indeed deeply love their wives. It's possible to have a strong emotional bond with someone, even a romantic bond, that isn't sexual in nature. So I wouldn't be so quick to say that his relationship with his wife isn't based on anything real. I'm sure there's love and loyalty involved, and sex can also be a bonding experience that's about more than just lust, passion, or even physical pleasure. I would guess that most gay men who have been in relationships with women have had (at least some of the time) pleasurable sex with them, and I'm sure that is heightened when there is a strong emotional bond, a sort of BFF relationship between the two.

I don't think there's anything wrong with a gay man choosing to have a primary relationship with a woman if it's what fulfills him, but of course in this specific scenario, religion has reared its head, so it's obvious that there are other motivations besides what's inherently most fulfilling.

[deelaem]

This is very similar to my Mormon niece's situation. It's obvious her husband is gay. They were both well into their 30's when they married, which is pretty unusual in Mormon couples. They are raising a family together, but have moved away from Mormon HQ. Another nephew of mine, who is gay and decidedly NOT Mormon, thinks that my niece is a lesbian herself. They seem to be making it work, but's awfully sad that neither one of them feels free to be their true selves.

[reckoner]

I think that he has to think of it as a definite choice or sacrifice to justify to himself why he is doing what he is doing. You can have a 'real family' or you can be in a gay relationship. Nothing else.

I agree. I also found it incredibly rude and offensive that he called his therapist's family "counterfeit." Would he say the same to a couple (gay or straight) with adopted kids? Would he say that to the kid? Sooo rude. If this works for him, that's fine but I do feel bad for him. I just have a hard time believing he's truly happy or has no regrets. There's also a danger in him sharing this story. Others are going to read it and think "well, why can't more gay men choose this lifestyle?" They're going to think he's doing something so noble and brave that other gay people should choose as well if they were only as good.

[Fundilicious]

Ok, I finally decided that I know what really bothers me about this article.

I too feel that some individuals can be in fulfilling relationships with those of the opposite sex when they themselves are Gay/ Lesbian. Some may want the tradition family and find a best friend in a mate of the opposite sex. However, this man adamantly says that he is not sexually attracted to his wife, yet he and his wife have enjoyable, fulfilling sex.

So how does this sex come about? Do they schedule days during the week where they will have sex so that they can both remain satisfied sexually, or do they have sex when the desire arises in them? Now if they are letting the desire arise in them naturally, wouldn't it be happening in a moment where they are finding themselves turned on and attracted to one another?

Maybe I'm still not understanding, as this situation is unique (or at least it is in my opinion. Most people I know in hetero relationships that then come out as gay, leave the relationship to pursue one with the same sex). Still all I can hope is that this man (and his wife) are truly happy.

[QAF_Rocks]

I too feel that some individuals can be in fulfilling relationships with those of the opposite sex when they themselves are Gay/ Lesbian. Some may want the tradition family and find a best friend in a mate of the opposite sex. However, this man adamantly says that he is not sexually attracted to his wife, yet he and his wife have enjoyable, fulfilling sex.

So how does this sex come about? Do they schedule days during the week where they will have sex so that they can both remain satisfied sexually, or do they have sex when the desire arises in them? Now if they are letting the desire arise in them naturally, wouldn't it be happening in a moment where they are finding themselves turned on and attracted to one another?

Hmmm, my only frame of reference for this is what I've heard some asexuals say about their relationships. It's possible for romantic asexuals to be in relationships with sexuals, in which there might be a compromise about sex. The asexual partner is not sexually attracted to the other person, but they choose to have sex because they want to please their partner, and also possibly because the sex itself feels good, even if there's no attraction.

So if this guy has a typical sex drive, there are going to be many occasions when he's turned on and desires sex, even if he's not attracted to his wife. Since his wife is there (and presumably wants to have sex with him), then it's possible they have pleasurable experiences on a regular basis together. Maybe he just sees the sex more as a spiritual, emotional, or bonding activity, as opposed to one fraught with passion and desire.

I feel bad, though, because it seems that if it weren't for religion, he wouldn't have to sacrifice anything as far as his true sexual desires are concerned. There would be no reason he couldn't have a relationship with a romantic, emotional, and sexual element.

[Boltingmadonna]

Oh, thanks for posting this. I've been feeling obsessively pissed off about it all day and was going to post something about it myself. I wish this couple only the best, and if they were just saying "This is what works for me," I'd say fine. None of my business. But you know they're NOT--this is getting picked up all over the place by Christians who think it proves something. And I don't think it's any accident that Josh Weed just had to come out right now, when marriage equality is an issue. He makes himself sound like a nice guy, but I think he's very disingenuous about the effect his revelation is meant to have.

Here's what really makes me mad: he says his sex life is "healthy," "robust" and "better" than that of most people he knows. Yet, when commenters ask him just how that can be, he gets all coy and says that's too private to discuss. But without details, how are we supposed to know what he means? By what standard is his sex life so wonderful? We don't have any idea how often they have sex, whether his wife is satisfied and has orgasms, what kinds of activities they engage in, or whether he fantasizes about men when he's with his wife.

As the saying goes, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." If he wants to convince me that he and his wife have an awesome sex life, he needs to provide me with some evidence, other than "take my word for it." Again, if he wanted to say that as a private person, in private conversation, there would be no need to pursue details, but since he's making himself a spokesman, we need some proof, dammit. His sex life is "private"? Well, making laws that prevent other people from marrying affects their private life too! He can't use himself as evidence that gay men can totes be happily straight-married, and then claim special snowflake status when people want to ask him how the hell that's supposed to happen.

[fluttershies]

This. Saying this as a bisexual myself. I have bi friends who say they are more attracted with another sex yet enjoy making love better with another sex. Maybe there is something like that behind this? And this is not new, many of bisexuals don't categorise themselves as ones, they only see two slots: heteros and homosexuals. This might be because bisexuals tend to be seen worse than ones who are strictly gays or strictly straights. You see, we bis fuck everything with two feet from ladders to chickens...

*shiftily puts down the ladder and the chicken :oops: *

[CrazyCatLady]

i have a hard time understanding how SHE could be truly happy in this situation. if my husband frequently claimed that he was not sexually aroused by or attracted to me i would be devastated. my best male friend is gay, i knew this when we became friends and had he not been gay i think we would've made an amazing couple but ya know, as much as we loved each other, he was not attracted to be sexually and knowing this, i could've never been truly happy in a relationship with him. Lucky for us, we're now both married to the men of our dreams :)

[mockingbird]

i have a hard time understanding how SHE could be truly happy in this situation. if my husband frequently claimed that he was not sexually aroused by or attracted to me i would be devastated. my best male friend is gay, i knew this when we became friends and had he not been gay i think we would've made an amazing couple but ya know, as much as we loved each other, he was not attracted to be sexually and knowing this, i could've never been truly happy in a relationship with him. Lucky for us, we're now both married to the men of our dreams :)

This. She must be living in perpetual denial. That's what it sounded like when she was talking about how they weren't infatuated with each other so they weren't distracted. :doh: (It sounded like she WAS/is? attracted to him, though.)

I have always wondered if one woman in my parents' church is lesbian but chose to remain single so she could still be Catholic and it always made me feel bad for her because I didn't think I'd be happy in her situation. I feel bad for this couple too, as I don't know how they can be truly happy in that relationship. However, I do think he has a political bent/motivation and agree with whoever said it's going to encourage other fundies to wonder why other gay people can't just choose to live in a straight marriage.

[alba]

I see no reason to believe he isn't truly happy in his relationship. Reading his post I got the impression that he has a romantic attraction to his wife, in the same way that a person can be asexual and have a romantic attraction to his/her partner. He obviously loves his wife and children dearly. I'm not going to criticise him for choosing a life that makes him happy.

That said, if it weren't for religion he would probably be equally happy with a husband and adopted children, and it bothers me that he felt the need to choose between being with someone to whom he was attracted and living the "proper" Mormon life. In many ways his choice reflects wider cultural trends against LGBTQ relationships: he's a "traditionalist" who wanted a wife and bio kids, something his religion encouraged, and he couldn't achieve that in a same-sex marriage.

I also think a lot of anti-same-sex marriage people will use his story as "evidence" that there's no need for same-sex marriage because people of any sexual orientation can have happy heterosexual marriages. It's entirely possible that's why he came out at this time. The problem is that this encourages the notion that LGBTQ relationships are second-class or less "real" than hetero ones, and that ALL people can be happy in heterosexual relationships. He chose to marry a woman, and his right to that choice is no greater than another man's choice to marry a man.

ETA: He comments on how being gay means you'll have to make sacrifices somewhere, but that only applies when you involve religious and cultural dictates on marriage. For instance he says if he was in a same-sex marriage they couldn't obey the church's ideas on children being born within marriage. Outside of his church, however, straight couples can adopt and same-sex couples can have biological children. Neither couple is making a sacrifice, nor is a couple that chooses to have no children.

The only sacrifices exist when people subscribe to the aforementioned ideas that heterosexual relationships are inherently superior.

[debrand]

*shiftily puts down the ladder and the chicken :oops: *

We need this on a t shirt

You see, we bis fuck everything with two feet from ladders to chickens...[/

[QAF_Rocks]

I wonder also if his sex life is fulfilling to him simply because he has nothing to compare it to? If he's never been with a man, then he doesn't know how much more intense or passionate it could potentially be. The good sex he currently has with his wife might very well pale in comparison.

[Kaylee]

This whole story is sort of weird to me. If they are both truly happy, good for them, but they could both probably be more happy if they didn't feel obligated by their faith to live a certain lifestyle with a certain type of family.

The thing that bothers me about all of this is that there's already a pattern among a lot or religious people to try to change gay people by talking them into getting married and pretending to be straight (usually comes from their parents and families, but also from church leaders). It almost always fails, with varying consequences, but usually with a lot of hurt on both sides of the relationships. I'm afraid that having this spread around is going to increase the number of people who think it's a good idea and who encourage those types of relationships and marriages.

From the wife's side, it does seem like she was reluctant at first and the whole "am I worth it to you" thing seems manipulative - maybe she felt obligated because of the whole Mormon idea of having to be married and have children. I'm in a relationship that is similar in some ways and I can say for sure that I'd never marry a gay man by choice. My husband identifies as bi, but I think he's more attracted to men and only seems really attracted to women when there's certain types of fetish stuff and roleplay involved, and that makes things hard enough as it is. The whole feeling that you're not really what your spouse wants in a partner and that you're just there to provide kids and a cover story really sucks, however much you try to say you're happy and OK with it.

[CrazyCatLady]

new post from Josh about all the attention his coming out is getting: http://www.joshweed.com/2012/06/notes-b ... er-to.html

[Witsec7]

Josh is supposedly a therapist. I wonder if he advocates for marrying away the gay?