Joseph Maxwell and Elizabeth share their heartwarming tale.

[SeaSaltCaramel]

We have maintained this courtship and engagement as a “no-touch†relationship (1 Corinthians 7:1). We feel this gives us the opportunity for our hearts and minds to become united without the complication of physical involvement and eliminates the possibility of moral failure in the relationship.

I absolutely cannot stand it when fundies take verses so badly out of context.

“It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.†-1 Corinthians 7:1

Now I read the KJV and it does say "touch" instead of "sexual relations," but looking up the original Greek word, it refers to intimate/sexual touching. Plus, when read in context, it is obviously referring to sex. It's like using a shotgun to kill an ant; a simply hand holding will DEFINITELY lead to sex. RIDICULOUS!!!

And the whole "eliminates the possibility of moral failure" is BS too. Again, if he read more of his Bible, he'd find this verse:

But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. -Matthew 5:28

So unless Steve has some sort of neurological head gear that induces an electric shock when Joseph's thoughts of Elizabeth go astray, there's no condom for the mind.

Start at the 1 minute mark ;)

[thoughtful]

there's no condom for the mind.

:lol: :lol:

[clibbyjo]

I just saw their upcoming schedule - the Maxwells will be about 30 minutes from me in Hammond, LA on October 5th-6th. I want to don a frumper and go so badly! :D

I used to live in Ponchatoula. I saw Hammond on the schedule and laughed. I would say around that area its equal Baptist/Catholic so it will be interesting what kind of crowd they get. You should o and report back with pics.

[jockosmom]

The speed of this courtship and engagement is very troubling and unnerving. The fear that drives so many fundy lives is terrible for them and they don't realize it. I wish Elizabeth's parents seemed more concerned with protecting her and her rights rather than what seems to be the search for approval and acceptance of them.

This. Absolutely this. I can't believe they're marrying so fast. It sounds like Joe has talked to Elizabeth's dad more than he's talked to her. These people are so bizarre. In so many ways, they overthink it, overdo it. And in others, like these "courtships" they rush into it before the kids have a chance to even think about things. Scary!

[ncb]

This. Absolutely this. I can't believe they're marrying so fast. It sounds like Joe has talked to Elizabeth's dad more than he's talked to her. These people are so bizarre. In so many ways, they overthink it, overdo it. And in others, like these "courtships" they rush into it before the kids have a chance to even think about things. Scary!

Totally, and often the courtships that do on longer and involve more interaction between boy and girl (said intentionally) often break up ala the Reith/Bates courtship or Chris Maxwell's first courtship. Seems to me like there is an increasing effort on the part of these parents to get them married off before they can actually think it over and potentially get out of it. The parents, all of whom dated themselves, seem to be consciously trying to get these kids married before the initial excitement of a courtship has worn off and the reality of marrying someone you barely know sets in. Also the parents are trying to avoid failed courtships. I think Steve is obsessed with doing each one more "godly" i.e. Nathan and Melanie touched so Christopher and NR Anna didn't. Christopher had a failed courtship so, Steve won't give Joseph any time to have his fail. What a sociopath Steve Maxwell is!

[johnhugh]

I left a comment, asking if Liz had visited her future home, or the Maxwell compound, but Stevie did not approve the post. Either he's read this thread or my use of the word compound hit a nerve. :naughty: Stevie, deleting or editing comments is not very Chrisitian....

[Just_Jane]

If they have a failed courtship have they given a piece of their heart away?

The whole courtship things is weird to me. Call it what it is an arranged marriage. Courtship implies some sort of romantic nature to it in my own opinion. An arranged marriage is more of a business transaction or agreement and less about romance because the people know they are not going to have love feelings for a bit.

[marmalade]

Totally, and often the courtships that do on longer and involve more interaction between boy and girl (said intentionally) often break up ala the Reith/Bates courtship or Chris Maxwell's first courtship. Seems to me like there is an increasing effort on the part of these parents to get them married off before they can actually think it over and potentially get out of it. The parents, all of whom dated themselves, seem to be consciously trying to get these kids married before the initial excitement of a courtship has worn off and the reality of marrying someone you barely know sets in. Also the parents are trying to avoid failed courtships. I think Steve is obsessed with doing each one more "godly" i.e. Nathan and Melanie touched so Christopher and NR Anna didn't. Christopher had a failed courtship so, Steve won't give Joseph any time to have his fail. What a sociopath Steve Maxwell is!

It's totally the ego of the fundie parents to "prove" that the courtship model is superior to dating in leading to marriage; the Bateses learned their lesson. Their defense of the breakup was pathetic. The sad thing is they don't even realize their entire premise is wrong and are instead rushing kids who don't know each other into marriages that may or may not be compatible somewhere down the line. No wonder Gothard encourages engagements of no longer than 3 months. That Steve-o is rushing this along at breakneck speed sends up all kinds of alarm bells and red flags for me. We thought the Priscilla Keller/David Waller courtship -----> wedding was fast (5 months, IIRC). Parse this out: Joe and Liz courted for about one month (they didn't start courting immediately after the Max visit in April...they were purposely vague as to when they began to court, other than it was sometime in May) and engaged for less than two - engaged June 25th -----> wedding Aug. 18th.

Yikes. May as well have just eloped. It would have been cheaper and they'd have about the same amount of household items to buy (everything).

[WonderingInWA]

I can't believe they don't have any plans to stream the wedding. I think he's planning to deliver his usually drudgery and doesn't want to fire us all up. That's not very Christian, Stevie! C'mon, let us in on the fun!

[darkplumaged]

I'll be disappointed if they don't stream it. I was totally planning to sit in front of the computer naked, drinking a very large Pepsi.

[twin2]

I wonder if Christopher's failed courtship had played any part in Steve-O determining that Joesph's courtship/engagement would be so rushed. The more time before the transfer of authority takes place, the more time for the betrothed (or more likely her father) to change her mind.

[IReallyAmHopewell]

Elope?? Not on your life! When would they ever be alone to decide that? I guess if you're doing an arranged marriage you could say at least they got to meet BEFORE the wedding. My hope is the other "junior" Maxwells will get to marry at around 22--25 and not be stuck home like poor Sarah.

[lilwriter85]

Elope?? Not on your life! When would they ever be alone to decide that? I guess if you're doing an arranged marriage you could say at least they got to meet BEFORE the wedding. My hope is the other "junior" Maxwells will get to marry at around 22--25 and not be stuck home like poor Sarah.

I think that will happen. I predict John will be married within the next two years. Anna is 19 or 20, I think Steve will make sure she is married off before she turns 25. The same thing will happen with Mary. Mary is very pretty and I bet a few fundie boys already have their eyes on her and are probably counting down the years until she comes of age.

[Anise]

I'll be disappointed if they don't stream it. I was totally planning to sit in front of the computer naked, drinking a very large Pepsi.

:lol:

[Hane]

I bet Stevie won't stream this combo hymen-sale-'n'-death-festival because he caught wind of how much we enjoyed NR-Anna's.

My "favorite" parts were the fact that neither bride, groom, nor patriarchs uttered the word "love" in describing their family relationships. Lots of mentions of "training," though. Oh, and the subtle "WTF is this shizz?" look on the face of the African-American minister in the wake of the hymen sale transfer of authority part. Was this the wedding where everyone had a collective orgasm because "Mr. Gothard," whose plane had been delayed, managed to show up after all?

[FloraDoraDolly]

Elizabeth has been raised to expect this.

I'm not sure about that. I haven't read the family's whole blog, but it sounds like the Muncks were fundie lite and they keep getting in deeper and deeper. At any rate, they're still more normal than the Maxwells. That's why I expressed my concern earlier about how neither Elizabeth nor her family have visited Maxwell-land. (You'd think she could travel with a sister and maybe stay with Christopher and NR Anna or Nathan and Melanie. Or maybe the grandparents.)

I guess she could be glad he's close to her age, reasonably attractive, making an attractive home for them (we don't know what she really picked out etc, but I assume she'll be pleased). It could have been a lot worse--an older guy with several kids, or an older guy who never got married and finds himself 40 and "lonely" and needing a "helpmeet" etc. No she didn't get to choose, but in her scheme of things it isn't as bad as it could be. Plus we don't know what goes on in Melanie and Nathan's or Christopher and Anna's homes when Daddy Steve isn't there. For all we know they could have a secret satelite dish in the attic!!!

Christopher and Anna are especially secretive. There's got to be a reason why they want all that privacy! :twisted:

Seriously, I've got to give Joseph credit for working so hard on the house. Elizabeth is fortunate that she's getting a man with a work ethic. I don't know how he earns his $$$, but obviously he and Elizabeth will not be living in poverty (not until they crank out seven or eight kids in less than a decade, anyhow). This puts him ahead of Josh Duggar and Zach Bates, at least in the "provider" category. Poor Zach doesn't seem to have much going for him financially, and what's Josh going to do when the TLC money dries up? That car lot just doesn't seem like much of a moneymaker. And then there are the Shraders who are moving to Zambia because they can't make a living in the USA. I don't see anything like that happening to Elizabeth.

[lilwriter85]

I'm not sure about that. I haven't read the family's whole blog, but it sounds like the Muncks were fundie lite and they keep getting in deeper and deeper. At any rate, they're still more normal than the Maxwells. That's why I expressed my concern earlier about how neither Elizabeth nor her family have visited Maxwell-land. (You'd think she could travel with a sister and maybe stay with Christopher and NR Anna or Nathan and Melanie. Or maybe the grandparents.)

Christopher and Anna are especially secretive. There's got to be a reason why they want all that privacy! :twisted:

Seriously, I've got to give Joseph credit for working so hard on the house. Elizabeth is fortunate that she's getting a man with a work ethic. I don't know how he earns his $$$, but obviously he and Elizabeth will not be living in poverty (not until they crank out seven or eight kids in less than a decade, anyhow). This puts him ahead of Josh Duggar and Zach Bates, at least in the "provider" category. Poor Zach doesn't seem to have much going for him financially, and what's Josh going to do when the TLC money dries up? That car lot just doesn't seem like much of a moneymaker. And then there are the Shraders who are moving to Zambia because they can't make a living in the USA. I don't see anything like that happening to Elizabeth.

I agree, Joseph is definitely ahead of Josh and Zach. I don't like Steve Maxwell that much, but I think he has instilled a good work ethic on his sons and he doesn't let them slide like how Boob lets Josh slide.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I'm not sure about that. I haven't read the family's whole blog, but it sounds like the Muncks were fundie lite and they keep getting in deeper and deeper. At any rate, they're still more normal than the Maxwells. That's why I expressed my concern earlier about how neither Elizabeth nor her family have visited Maxwell-land. (You'd think she could travel with a sister and maybe stay with Christopher and NR Anna or Nathan and Melanie. Or maybe the grandparents.)

Yeah, I share your concerns too. Surely she was raised to expect "courtship" but not necessarily THIS crazy fast, y'know? And she's never visited Kansas as far as we know.

As others posted too, keeping to the rules of this particular courtship model, her parents could easily have given the two more time for engagement by simply saying they required Joseph to do this or that first, or just plain right out wait a bit. But they didn't.

Reading the Munck blog it seems they fell head over heels for the Maxwells at that first conference that only the parents attended. That was only in 2008. Four short years ago. Elizabeth would have already been 16 years old.

(Completely aside - looking at the Munck blog just now I see they're fans of Jonathan Park! Argh!!!! Teach your kids some REAL SCIENCE please!!!)

[Justme]

If Joe is man enough to marry, he should be man enough to answer his own comments! 27 comments so far and 2 Stevie "snarky" replys. "Is she moving far from her family" "pretty far". "Will the wedding be live streamed?" "probably not". :roll:

[devilsadvocate]

I left a comment, asking if Liz had visited her future home, or the Maxwell compound, but Stevie did not approve the post. Either he's read this thread or my use of the word compound hit a nerve. :naughty: Stevie, deleting or editing comments is not very Chrisitian....

I wonder, has anyone tried to contact the Muncks to make sure they realize what they're signing Elizabeth up for?

[lilith]

I wonder, has anyone tried to contact the Muncks to make sure they realize what they're signing Elizabeth up for?

They know. All the information available to us is available to them, plus they have also attended conferences, purchased material that we haven't seen cause we don't want to support the Maxwell "ministry" by paying for it, and spent one on one time with the Maxwells.

They know, and they somehow think that the Maxwells are a fine family to sell their 20 year old daughter to.

Fundie as they are, the Muncks seem to have a lot more fun and colour in their lives than the Maxwells. But they obviously see the austerity of Steve and co as something laudable, so they are going to push their duaghter into it, even though they themselves are too attached to fun to actually go that extreme.

[Arete]

They know. All the information available to us is available to them, plus they have also attended conferences, purchased material that we haven't seen cause we don't want to support the Maxwell "ministry" by paying for it, and spent one on one time with the Maxwells.

They know, and they somehow think that the Maxwells are a fine family to sell their 20 year old daughter to.

Fundie as they are, the Muncks seem to have a lot more fun and colour in their lives than the Maxwells. But they obviously see the austerity of Steve and co as something laudable, so they are going to push their duaghter into it, even though they themselves are too attached to fun to actually go that extreme.

This. They know, and even worse they think "Maxwellness" is something every good family should aspire to, even if they can't quite get there.

[xReems]

[

It's totally the ego of the fundie parents to "prove" that the courtship model is superior to dating in leading to marriage; the Bateses learned their lesson. Their defense of the breakup was pathetic. The sad thing is they don't even realize their entire premise is wrong and are instead rushing kids who don't know each other into marriages that may or may not be compatible somewhere down the line. No wonder Gothard encourages engagements of no longer than 3 months. That Steve-o is rushing this along at breakneck speed sends up all kinds of alarm bells and red flags for me. We thought the Priscilla Keller/David Waller courtship -----> wedding was fast (5 months, IIRC). Parse this out: Joe and Liz courted for about one month (they didn't start courting immediately after the Max visit in April...they were purposely vague as to when they began to court, other than it was sometime in May) and engaged for less than two - engaged June 25th -----> wedding Aug. 18th.

Yikes. May as well have just eloped. It would have been cheaper and they'd have about the same amount of household items to buy (everything).

Agree with you, completely. These fundies are such wackadoodles when it comes to emotional attraction, it drives me crazy. They allow their children, who are courting, to get to know one another but there seriously is no deep conversation. Honestly, I feel like my boyfriend and I tend to have our most intimate conversations when it's just the two of us out on our date nights. We're able to get to know each other more and understand what's going on in our hearts completely. These fundie couples don't get that advantage because the parents are so afraid of them rushing into sex, they're willing to do whatever it takes to make sure it doesn't happen.

Getting married can be a good thing but rushing into it, especially at such a young age, can be detrimental. Elizabeth just turned 20-I don't think she's mentally and emotionally stable enough to get married. Yes, there are those couples out there who are but in fundie land-especially with so much emphasis on purity-it stunts their emotional and mental growth. Look at Priscilla (Keller) and David Waller? They're both in their mid-20s and act like teenagers, with all the matching outfits and preteen excitement. Also, we cannot forget Smuggar and Anna (remember her Joshy's Girl purse?!).

What bothers me is that Elizabeth's family were pretty fundie lite a few years ago. I think I remember someone finding a picture of Elizabeth, when she was 16, wearing jeans. Sometime after that, they fell pretty deep into this ultra conservative lifestyle and are now falling to the Maxwell trap. How do you go from being care free to getting married to a Maxwell in such little time?!

The girl is so young and still growing up mentally and emotionally. I don't understand why her parents have allowed this to happen so fast. In a 4 months period-they will have courted, been engaged, and married. That should raise concern for any parents, especially for a 20 year old!

[marmalade]

Reems, I'm with you. My husband met, dated and were married all in less than a year (about 10 1/2 months), but we were also a decade older than these two. We also met and engaged in each others' company on our own before we introduced the parents; funny how in the secular (or even liberal Christian) world - which is what I was trying to be at the time...didn't work :lol: - the couple brings the parents in once they consider the relationship serious. I have plenty of former boyfriends who never met the parents. And when I think back, the only ones who met the parents, other than dates who picked me up in high school (none of whom were serious), were the ones I had long-term relationships with - or, in the case of the last one, ended up marrying.

Worked for us; we celebrate 18 years next Monday.

[flojo]

:lol:

This quote just caused me to explain who the maxwells are, their history, the idea that Pepsi is an idol and why this was funny to Mr. flojo to be...