Female Arab/Muslim Athletes on the rise

August 3, 2012

I thought I read it wrong, but no.

You really have just likened Muslim immigrants to the Nazis.

This is vile and unbelievably offensive not only to Muslims, but also to Jews and every single victim of the Holocaust and the Nazi occupation.

As a Jew, a Pole, and, frankly, a human being, I find it despicable.

*Bzzzzt* Round over! Loser: Latraviata! Rules of Engagement: Internet Version clearly state that the first person to analogize the Holocaust automatically forfeit.

August 3, 2012

*Bzzzzt* Round over! Loser: Latraviata! Rules of Engagement: Internet Version clearly state that the first person to analogize the Holocaust automatically forfeit.

Sorry, this was not a Godwin.

I have been called a nazi on FJ, remember that? Only because I am not particularly impressed by islam.

It is true, never mind orthodox jews, fundie christians (and rightly so) but oh no when it comes to islam everybody shouts discrimination, bigotry!! You know, you are a bunch of hypocrites!!

Never mind the women, jews, homosexuals, infidels, never mind about them, we can't criticise islam because that is bigotry!!

August 3, 2012

Sorry, this was not a Godwin.

Sorry, but you replaced Muslims with Nazis and tried to use it as an argument, it is a Godwin.

August 3, 2012

wow my very first live Godwin!

August 3, 2012

wow my very first live Godwin!

Fun isn't it!

August 3, 2012

Sorry, but you replaced Muslims with Nazis and tried to use it as an argument, it is a Godwin.

No I didn't, I exposed ridiculous reasoning. But I know you like me to Godwin and you enjoy it, only the thought of it makes you drool. You didn't bother to read my postings properly, let alone the articles and Quran verses I gave you, you only read what you wanted to read, so you can shout bigot and show your own goodness and virtue. Look how incredibly unprejudiced I am well, you are a joke and a hypocrite.

In addition, comparing your progressive veiled (which is a contradictio in terminis in itself) participants in a meeting about oh boy, sensitive subjects to the cruelty, violence and antisemitism going on in the islamic world is completely out of proportion and a disgrace to the people who are killed, tortured and suppressed by this lovely bunch, think about that.

August 3, 2012

No I didn't, I exposed ridiculous reasoning. But I know you like me to Godwin and you enjoy it, only the thought of it makes you drool. You didn't bother to read my postings properly, let alone the articles and Quran verses I gave you, you only read what you wanted to read, so you can shout bigot and show your own goodness and virtue. Look how incredibly unprejudiced I am well, you are a joke and a hypocrite.

In addition, comparing your progressive veiled (which is a contradictio in terminis in itself) participants in a meeting about oh boy, sensitive subjects to the cruelty, violence and antisemitism going on in the islamic world is completely out of proportion and a disgrace to the people who are killed, tortured and suppressed by this lovely bunch, think about that.

First: You brought up Nazi Germany to argue your point about Muslims, that is Godwin's law.

Second: I didn't say veiled, I said covered. And even if I did say veiled, it is not automatically a contradiction to label the same person as progressive if they are in fact progressive in their views.

Third: Stop with the fucking generalizations all ready. It makes you look like a goddamn idiot with stringent, fundie style, bigoted views. It's no different than saying "well sure, some blacks are ok but that doesn't change the actions of the bunch of them!"

August 3, 2012

First: You brought up Nazi Germany to argue your point about Muslims, that is Godwin's law.

Second: I didn't say veiled, I said covered. And even if I did say veiled, it is not automatically a contradiction to label the same person as progressive if they are in fact progressive in their views.

Third: Stop with the fucking generalizations all ready. It makes you look like a goddamn idiot with stringent, fundie style, bigoted views. It's no different than saying "well sure, some blacks are ok but that doesn't change the actions of the bunch of them!"

Too bad, bringing up black people is not considered to be a Godwin, but still the same difference.

Covered and progessive is not necessarily a contradiction? The same applies for covered christians? Do you understand why women are supposed to cover themselves? Or is it just a fashion statement?

I don't think so.

And even though they are voluntarily covered, it is not in solidarity with their sisters who are forced to cover by their governments like the judoka.

Never mind about all that, you remain in your political correct spasm and cover yourself.

August 3, 2012

I know people who considered themselves "Bad Jews" because they don't follow all the rules exactly. For Christians, I'll admit I've never heard someone describe themselves as a "Bad Christian", but I know "Cafeteria Catholics" who consider themselves Catholic but the only time they attend church is Christmas and Easter and they don't follow the many rules of the R.C.C.

Instead of Bad Christian, I do hear people say "that's not very Christian of me" "that wouldn't be a Christian thing to do", etc.

I think maybe because they're usually the minority, Jews and Muslims feel more pressure to walk the religious straight and narrow 24/7. Christians give themselves more leniency.

although I have known those people outside of their homecountry, they were not immigrants to other countries, just temporary students. So I don't think it applies. I really think it is something about the way they consider their religon differently.

Latraviata, I know people from Turkey and really do not see at all what you see. When they say there is one islam it does not mean there is one way to practice islam, it means there is only one community and one God, but I guess your perspective would not be able to accept that when people from other culture speak they might mean things that you don't see as a Westerner.

Heinz summed it up very well. People are going back to religion because we have failed them, not the other way around. That some people become fundies... well it happens everywhere. Have a very good friend of mine who decided suddenly to accept her parents' ongoing pressure to be the good catholic girl and now she's married with a kid, stays at home and does nothing all day because she lives in the middle of nowhere. she's just like most fundie muslims, neither she nor her husband are going to take up arms because that is only a minority of minority that does that.

August 3, 2012

!"

Too bad, bringing up black people is not considered to be a Godwin, but still the same difference.

Covered and progessive is not necessarily a contradiction? The same applies for covered christians? Do you understand why women are supposed to cover themselves? Or is it just a fashion statement?

I don't think so.

And even though they are voluntarily covered, it is not in solidarity with their sisters who are forced to cover by their governments like the judoka.

Never mind about all that, you remain in your political correct spasm and cover yourself.

August 3, 2012

Hmm, LaTraviata, do we know the judoka in question didn't cover voluntarily?

I'm a modest person in views, the day you see me in a bikini will be the day Hell freezes over ;) I cover my arms and legs, not for religion but because I'm uncomfortable not doing so. Could she have covered from her personal opinion?

August 4, 2012

Hmm, LaTraviata, do we know the judoka in question didn't cover voluntarily?

I'm a modest person in views, the day you see me in a bikini will be the day Hell freezes over ;) I cover my arms and legs, not for religion but because I'm uncomfortable not doing so. Could she have covered from her personal opinion?

No she didn't she is from Saudi Arabia and women are forced to cover themselves. The Saudi authorities and her father were making a big fuss about their uncovered national/daughter. So the OC gave in. Follow the money trail/oil.

I cover all my wrinkeld limbs because I am old, the days of exposing my 'gorgeous' body are definitively over.

August 4, 2012

Too bad, bringing up black people is not considered to be a Godwin, but still the same difference.

Covered and progessive is not necessarily a contradiction? The same applies for covered christians? Do you understand why women are supposed to cover themselves? Or is it just a fashion statement?

I don't think so.

And even though they are voluntarily covered, it is not in solidarity with their sisters who are forced to cover by their governments like the judoka.

Never mind about all that, you remain in your political correct spasm and cover yourself.

You are taking those women's agency by saying that. YOU ARE. Not their men. Not their sheikhs. YOU.

Because I personally don't believe you're wearing pants out of your own volition. I think you're wearing pants because other women do. It's not a fashion statement. It's not a political statement. It's just you following blindly what other people do around you.

How do you feel about that?

August 4, 2012

To be fair, I read somewhere that one of the Saudi athletes is going to school in the US and does not cover here.

I don't think Wahhabism can be used as a fair representative of Islam though.

August 4, 2012

No she didn't she is from Saudi Arabia and women are forced to cover themselves. The Saudi authorities and her father were making a big fuss about their uncovered national/daughter. So the OC gave in. Follow the money trail/oil.

I cover all my wrinkeld limbs because I am old, the days of exposing my 'gorgeous' body are definitively over.

Forget about the Saudi government and forget about her father. How do you know that she wouldn't have chosen to remain covered if it weren't for them? Some Saudi women choose to remain covered to some extent when they go to Western countries. Some choose to remain in the abaya and hijab, others prefer Western clothes with a hijab. How do you know she wouldn't have chosen that for herself.

During 40/45 and the Germans occupied Europe, nobody said well, they are horrible but there are good Germans too.
Of course there were good Germans but that doesn't wipe away the horrors caused by these monsters or should I say 'victims' of society.

Fuck this. :evil:

August 4, 2012

No she didn't she is from Saudi Arabia and women are forced to cover themselves. The Saudi authorities and her father were making a big fuss about their uncovered national/daughter. So the OC gave in. Follow the money trail/oil.

I cover all my wrinkeld limbs because I am old, the days of exposing my 'gorgeous' body are definitively over.

LOL! I don't think I would win any beauty prizes. Maybe "spectacular ugliness" ones.

That's sad to hear the judoka didn't make her own decision.

I sobbed ridiculously reading this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ondon.html

I would be very proud to meet any of these women and shake their hands. Results weren't great in 2012, maybe they will be in 2016?

(Shaherkani was a fucking BLUE BELT up against striped black belts though? I totally applaud her bravery. I shall hope all the best for her in Rio, she did a sterling job here.)

August 4, 2012

although I have known those people outside of their homecountry, they were not immigrants to other countries, just temporary students. So I don't think it applies. I really think it is something about the way they consider their religon differently.

Latraviata, I know people from Turkey and really do not see at all what you see. When they say there is one islam it does not mean there is one way to practice islam, it means there is only one community and one God, but I guess your perspective would not be able to accept that when people from other culture speak they might mean things that you don't see as a Westerner.

Heinz summed it up very well. People are going back to religion because we have failed them, not the other way around. That some people become fundies... well it happens everywhere. Have a very good friend of mine who decided suddenly to accept her parents' ongoing pressure to be the good catholic girl and now she's married with a kid, stays at home and does nothing all day because she lives in the middle of nowhere. she's just like most fundie muslims, neither she nor her husband are going to take up arms because that is only a minority of minority that does that.

I don't believe in our failing Sophie. We have many nationalities and they seem to adjust just fine.

The Turkish people who came to the Netherlands are predominantly from rural Anatolia.

Once I had to evaluate a seventeen year old girl who had killed her baby.

She was shipped off to the Netherlands to marry her 25 years older cousin, of course her parents had arranged that.

Her husband abused her, raped her, isolated her, she couldn't leave the house and was not allowed to use the telephone. Of course she didn't speak Dutch.

This is by the way not an uncommon situation. I have seen many situations like this. They arrange a bride from their village, preferably young, scared along way from home and completely subservient and depending on the husband

This girl snapped and killed her child (3 weeks old) in an extremely violant way, I have seen the photographs, I will spare you the details.

I spoke with her through an interpreter and I can't describe how sad the whole situation was. What is going to happen with her after her time in prison. She can't go back to her village, because she violated the honor of her family. She can't go back to her husband, he disowned her.

The husband's defense was.......it is our religion. The wife stays at home and when she is not obedient I am allowed to beat her up.

August 4, 2012

You are taking those women's agency by saying that. YOU ARE. Not their men. Not their sheikhs. YOU.

Because I personally don't believe you're wearing pants out of your own volition. I think you're wearing pants because other women do. It's not a fashion statement. It's not a political statement. It's just you following blindly what other people do around you.

How do you feel about that?

So covering yourself is blindly following others? I agree with that.

As far as the pants are concerned, I do have a choice to wear pants or a skirt or be naked if I would like to be.

Indeed, apparantly the men are not able to control themselves so the women need to wrap themselves.

August 4, 2012

Forget about the Saudi government and forget about her father. How do you know that she wouldn't have chosen to remain covered if it weren't for them? Some Saudi women choose to remain covered to some extent when they go to Western countries. Some choose to remain in the abaya and hijab, others prefer Western clothes with a hijab. How do you know she wouldn't have chosen that for herself.

Fuck this. :evil:

There, there, language.

You are completely delusional. There is nothing to choose for Saudi women.

If you do wish to submit to this religion, be my quest, but don't give me that song and dance about how wonderful this religion is for women, wrong translations and the like.

August 4, 2012

So covering yourself is blindly following others? I agree with that.

As far as the pants are concerned, I do have a choice to wear pants or a skirt or be naked if I would like to be.

Indeed, apparantly the men are not able to control themselves so the women need to wrap themselves.

no according to other people's opinions both you and these women have no agency and no choice in the matter.

I think it's most often very hard to determine who has a "choice" to wear a certain item of clothing and who does not. You are just as much under social regulation as those women are. Except you think it's fine to have women's clothes and men's clothes (and not transgender clothes, cisclothes, or no clothes), so in your mind you have a choice. But that's your own blind opinion.

I think we are all under social constraints, some women that don't live in countries with mandatory coverings have all the choice to wear the veil, others don't. But to say NO WOMAN wears it of her own volition or does not see it as anything else than what you are willing to attribute meaning is really really close minded.

August 4, 2012

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