Female Arab/Muslim Athletes on the rise

[19 dogs and counting]

Islam does NOT condone murdering someone because of the gender of her kids. There is a hadith which says that if a person educates 3 daughters, he will go to paradise. Someone asked what if I only have 2 daughters? Mohammad answered that the person will still go to paradise for teaching them. Again, someone asked about 1 daughter, again, they will go to paradise for educating them.

It may not condone murdering your wife related to fetal gender (he was also a biology professor-hope the irony is not lost on this point) but he felt that the quaran demanded obedience from his wife as the male is the superior. She gave four daughters and no son, therefore, she was killed. It's obvious to me that there's some mental illness which is acting through religion in this case. I don't think that's unusual for any religious extremism. Anyway, it has been a decade and he is still in jail.

Edited because I forgot to mention that he sought and was given protection by his cleric. My uncle had to fly in from from Switzerland and raise hell to get justice.

[2xx1xy1JD]

It may not condone murdering your wife related to fetal gender (he was also a biology professor-hope the irony is not lost on this point) but he felt that the quaran demanded obedience from his wife as the male is the superior. She gave four daughters and no son, therefore, she was killed. It's obvious to me that there's some mental illness which is acting through religion in this case. I don't think that's unusual for any religious extremism. Anyway, it has been a decade and he is still in jail.

Edited because I forgot to mention that he sought and was given protection by his cleric. My uncle had to fly in from from Switzerland and raise hell to get justice.

What kind of "protection"? I'm sorry that your family had to go through such a tragedy.

[Black Aliss]

Um, actually, if you're familiar with the sunnah and hadith and if you've studied carefully, Islam is NOT misoginistic. Women were given rights long before Western women. It's culture that is misoginistic.

That, and you can't really say "Islam is " when there are so many different paths within Islam. Ismaeli Muslims have about as much in common with Wahabi Muslims as, say, Unitarian Universalists do with ATI/IFB/VF.

[latraviata]

That, and you can't really say "Islam is " when there are so many different paths within Islam. Ismaeli Muslims have about as much in common with Wahabi Muslims as, say, Unitarian Universalists do with ATI/IFB/VF.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ummah

Really? Do you ever hear about the different islamic denominations when they set fire to churches, hang homosexuals, commit honor killings, decapitate adulters meaning raped women?

You know exactly which group that is? Sunnis, Shiites, Wahabites?

The only liberal movement within islam are the Turkish alevis a very small minority and they are not considered to be muslims at all by the the other ' islamic movements' and therefore persecuted and killed by their fellow 'muslim brothers'.

[Arete]

Ismaelis are persecuted and killed by orthodox Muslims in India and Pakistan.

[heinz57]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ummah

Really? Do you ever hear about the different islamic denominations when they set fire to churches, hang homosexuals, commit honor killings, decapitate adulters meaning raped women?

You know exactly which group that is? Sunnis, Shiites, Wahabites?

The only liberal movement within islam are the Turkish alevis a very small minority and they are not considered to be muslims at all by the the other ' islamic movements' and therefore persecuted and killed by their fellow 'muslim brothers'.

Ehm yeah, at least in France you do hear for example "perpetrated by X, member of a fundamentalist branch of shiism". And even if you "never hear" it should only mean that those relaying the news neglected to mention it, not that it doesn't exist.

As for Ummah, it's no more precise than saying "the Jews" (ranging from Mea Shearim to Seinfeld), or "British Commonwealth" (ranging from Canada to Sri Lanka), or Christianity (ranging from the Pope to Steve Maxwell). Sure, the term exists, and it has its use - just like the Jews, Christianity, and Commonwealth.

[latraviata]

Ismaelis are persecuted and killed by orthodox Muslims in India and Pakistan.

Yes they kill each other as well.

But they are very united when it comes to killing jews (apparantly according to the Quran, they are apes and pigs) women, homosexuals and non muslims (infidels) in general.

Does it really matter wether people are rejected and condemned by fundamentalist catholics, baptists, mormons or pentecostals?

[latraviata]

Ehm yeah, at least in France you do hear for example "perpetrated by X, member of a fundamentalist branch of shiism". And even if you "never hear" it should only mean that those relaying the news neglected to mention it, not that it doesn't exist.

As for Ummah, it's no more precise than saying "the Jews" (ranging from Mea Shearim to Seinfeld), or "British Commonwealth" (ranging from Canada to Sri Lanka), or Christianity (ranging from the Pope to Steve Maxwell). Sure, the term exists, and it has its use - just like the Jews, Christianity, and Commonwealth.

Perhaps this is true to us as non muslims, but really the Ummah has a different connotation.

[heinz57]

Perhaps this is true to us as non muslims, but really the Ummah has a different connotation.

Well then as a non-Muslim you can't really say, can you?

Obviously, it's always different from outside, but it just means that people from the outside make gross over-generalisations.

When I went to the US with my French then-husband we considered ourselves very much a mixed marriage and in the States we got almost always referred to as "the Euros". You can go on and on explaining that Finland, Bulgaria and Portugal have nothing much in common, people from the outside will toss you in the same bag and attribute the same vices and qualities to everyone from the bag you happen to be in.

And that's exactly what you seem to be doing with the Muslims.

[Sunnichick31]

Yes they kill each other as well.

But they are very united when it comes to killing jews (apparantly according to the Quran, they are apes and pigs) women, homosexuals and non muslims (infidels) in general.

Does it really matter wether people are rejected and condemned by fundamentalist catholics, baptists, mormons or pentecostals?

You cannot judge something based on a video of a 3 year old. She is obviously just parroting what her parents and family say. Also, that video is from Saudi Arabia, which is a wahabi country. The majority of Muslims are not wahabis.

I can't provide a source for this because I read it several years ago and can't remember where I found it, but I read something where a scholar said that the less educated a person is, the more likely they'll become an extremist because it'll be easier for extremists to recrute them when they can't read Islamic materials for themselves and they might not be able to provide for their families unless they go to work for extremists. Of course that isn't always true, I'm sure that there are many educated extremists as well.

And no, we are NOT united in killing people! There is a saying that if you save one life, it's like you've saved all of humanity, and likewise, if you take a life unneccesarily (meaning it was not in self defense) then it's like you've killed all of humanity. I do not know even one Muslim who would condone killing.

[heinz57]

Sunnichick, slightly off topic, but could you recommend a decent blog of a girl/woman converting to Islam?

[latraviata]

You cannot judge something based on a video of a 3 year old. She is obviously just parroting what her parents and family say. Also, that video is from Saudi Arabia, which is a wahabi country. The majority of Muslims are not wahabis.

I can't provide a source for this because I read it several years ago and can't remember where I found it, but I read something where a scholar said that the less educated a person is, the more likely they'll become an extremist because it'll be easier for extremists to recrute them when they can't read Islamic materials for themselves and they might not be able to provide for their families unless they go to work for extremists. Of course that isn't always true, I'm sure that there are many educated extremists as well.

And no, we are NOT united in killing people! There is a saying that if you save one life, it's like you've saved all of humanity, and likewise, if you take a life unneccesarily (meaning it was not in self defense) then it's like you've killed all of humanity. I do not know even one Muslim who would condone killing.

You know very well, this isn't just one video. Also the standard response, incidents...

Well, what about, Syria, Egypt, Afganistan, Sudan, Somalia, Iran, Jemen etc. all just incidents??

Extremists are very often educated people indeed, 9/11? Oh I am sorry, just an incident....

FYI the saying, when you save one life.... is originally a Thalmudic saying. The quran includes many, many elements from the talmud, thora and bible.

United in killing is not exactly what I said. I meant the vile attitude towards, jews, women, homosexuals, infidels (non muslims) and let's not forget black people. The islamic countries I stayed for a few years, black people were considered less than third class citizens.

[heinz57]

You know very well, this isn't just one video. Also the standard response, incidents...

Well, what about, Syria, Egypt, Afganistan, Sudan, Somalia, Iran, Jemen etc. all just incidents??

Extremists are very often educated people indeed, 9/11? Oh I am sorry, just an incident....

FYI the saying, when you save one life.... is originally a Thalmudic saying. The quran includes many, many elements from the talmud, thora and bible.

But on the other end, in recent history, you have Bosniaks and Uyghurs.

Every time you are tempted to make a generalization about the Muslims, try replacing the word "Muslim" in that statement by the word "Jew" or "Black" and see if you'd be still OK with that.

[latraviata]

But on the other end, in recent history, you have Bosniaks and Uyghurs.

Every time you are tempted to make a generalization about the Muslims, try replacing the word "Muslim" in that statement by the word "Jew" or "Black" and see if you'd be still OK with that.

Or Fundies.

Apparantly it is ok to critisise fundie christians, jews, but when it comes to islam, suddenly people get into a political correct spasm.

[latraviata]

Well then as a non-Muslim you can't really say, can you?

Obviously, it's always different from outside, but it just means that people from the outside make gross over-generalisations.

When I went to the US with my French then-husband we considered ourselves very much a mixed marriage and in the States we got almost always referred to as "the Euros". You can go on and on explaining that Finland, Bulgaria and Portugal have nothing much in common, people from the outside will toss you in the same bag and attribute the same vices and qualities to everyone from the bag you happen to be in.

And that's exactly what you seem to be doing with the Muslims.

Yes I can say something about it, it has been explained to me in extenso during our years in the middle east.

The comparison is completely wrong, this is a religion we are talking about, with the common denominator a holy book as a guide, as much as the bible is a guide for christians. And the books are filled with cruelty, mysery, prejudice and absurd rules of conduct.

Initially we were talking about the head scarf of a judoka, the mandatory headgear is as woman oppressive as of head covering of any other religion.

[LucySnowe]

Friend of mine who's a very keen mountain-climbing sort of guy mentioned that Iran has some excellent female mountaineers, because apparently it's a sport that's considered compatible with clothing restrictions - a brief Google is coming up with some examples of said women, but I haven't found any kind of discussion that this is encouraged for women; anyone who can provide any background, I'd be grateful!

[heinz57]

Apparantly it is ok to critisise fundie christians, jews, but when it comes to islam, suddenly people get into a political correct spasm.

I am all for criticizing muslim fundamentalists, they are cruel whackjobs, who pick and choose from an ancient text the parts that suit their agenda. That's what fundamentalists of all stripes do.

What I don't agree with, is putting all Muslims in the same bag. Other commenters upthread were pointing out that there is a lot of flavors within Islam, and you seem to completely refute the concept, and imply that all muslims are fundamentalists.

If your sentence read "Apparantly it is ok to critisise fundie Muslims, Christians, but when it comes to Judaism, suddenly people get into a political correct spasm", I would consider it bordering on antisemitism.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Or Fundies.

Apparantly it is ok to critisise fundie christians, jews, but when it comes to islam, suddenly people get into a political correct spasm.

I will agree with you that fundie trends in Islam are every bit as snark-worthy as those in Christianity or Judaism.

On this board, though, a fair amount of time and effort is spent exposing EXACTLY what the fundie trends are, what organizations are pushing them, who is supporting them, etc. It's not really "Christianity is horrible, look at how they beat kids with plumbing line". It's more "Look at this horrible book by the Pearls, and at this list of bloggers and places that are endorsing it", or "look at this Quiverfull trend and the particular way that it is being pushed by Vision Forum and ATI/Gottard". I'd love to be able to have discussions on this level about trends in Islam, but I'm not sure how many on this board have enough background to do so.

You may also want to do some research on the various sects, and at the vocal dissidents and reformers.

Ahmadi Muslims, for example, reject fanaticism and violence. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmadiyya Unfortunately, they have also been subject to persecution from other, more dominant Muslim groups. (I live near a large Ahmadi community)

Tarek Fatah wrote an excellent book, "The Jew is Not My Enemy". Here's the link to his Twitter feed: https://twitter.com/TarekFatah

Fatah goes through the Quran and the Hadiths, as well as analyzing some ancient history and current events. He's not a fan of the Hadiths, and points out that many of these are far worse toward Jews that the Quran itself. He also talks about different translations, and who sponsors them. He also reviews some of the history of Muslim/Jewish relations, and notes some of the current anti-Jewish trends can be traced back to Nazi influence during WWII.

Irshad Manji's "The Trouble With Islam Today" discusses both problematic trends and sources for a more liberal interpretation.

[latraviata]

I am all for criticizing muslim fundamentalists, they are cruel whackjobs, who pick and choose from an ancient text the parts that suit their agenda. That's what fundamentalists of all stripes do.

What I don't agree with, is putting all Muslims in the same bag. Other commenters upthread were pointing out that there is a lot of flavors within Islam, and you seem to completely refute the concept, and imply that all muslims are fundamentalists.

If your sentence read "Apparantly it is ok to critisise fundie Muslims, Christians, but when it comes to Judaism, suddenly people get into a political correct spasm", I would consider it bordering on antisemitism.

I mean on this FJ forum it is ok to snark and critisise fundie christians and orthodox jews.

For the record, I resent all religions. I am perfectly ok with people believing in some sort of deity no matter what flavour it is, as long as they don't bother the rest of society.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_sc ... _in_France

It is exactly the vile islamic antisemitism I really resent. Jews in the Netherlands and in France for that matter can't openly wear their kippah without being bullied mocked and attacked and frankly I don't care wether it is by christians,catholics, baptists, hindus, sikhs or muslims, wahabists, sunnis or shiites.

One example:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18357812

[linnea27]

I mean this as an honest question.

I think, at least for me, some of the perceived double-standard when it comes to snarking on fundies and Muslims is that there seems to be a discrepancy in determining what makes a fundie between religions. I tend to think that if Muslims were judged by Christian-fundie standards, they'd mostly be fundies, and yet as someone posted above, when it comes to Islam, the only ones we call fundamentalists are the "cruel wackjobs."

Take, for instance, the link that sunnichick posted early on in this thread. She called it her "favourite hejabi fashion blog" and in one of the posts, the blogger criticizes this outfit because it reveals the shape of the wearer's ankles:

Can you imagine the fallout on here if the Duggars or the Coghlans or the Maxwells posted this picture, ankles circled, implying that this woman was immodest? We snark on Christian fundies for being "modest" by wearing longer skirts, etc, but don't say anything about the women who cover from head to toe.

(I don't mean this post to call out sunnichick specifically, despite discussing her link, as from what I've read she's a very nice person. I just mean it to help illustrate something I have always wondered: this board, by and large, respects Muslim women dressing according to their religious beliefs, but doesn't tend to respect fundie Christian women dressing according to theirs, from what I've seen.)

[latraviata]

I mean this as an honest question.

I think, at least for me, some of the perceived double-standard when it comes to snarking on fundies and Muslims is that there seems to be a discrepancy in determining what makes a fundie between religions. I tend to think that if Muslims were judged by Christian-fundie standards, they'd mostly be fundies, and yet as someone posted above, when it comes to Islam, the only ones we call fundamentalists are the "cruel wackjobs."

Take, for instance, the link that sunnichick posted early on in this thread. She called it her "favourite hejabi fashion blog" and in one of the posts, the blogger criticizes this outfit because it reveals the shape of the wearer's ankles:

Can you imagine the fallout on here if the Duggars or the Coghlans or the Maxwells posted this picture, ankles circled, implying that this woman was immodest? We snark on Christian fundies for being "modest" by wearing longer skirts, etc, but don't say anything about the women who cover from head to toe.

(I don't mean this post to call out sunnichick specifically, despite discussing her link, as from what I've read she's a very nice person. I just mean it to help illustrate something I have always wondered: this board, by and large, respects Muslim women dressing according to their religious beliefs, but doesn't tend to respect fundie Christian women dressing according to theirs, from what I've seen.)

My point exactly.

Not all muslim fundamentalists are terrorists. But fundamentalism is not an exeption at all.

This thread was about the Saudi officials force their athletes to wear hijabs/veils. One of the posters said it must be the stubbornness of the judo federation, of course "l'enfer c'est les autres". No, it is not the judo federation, it is the Saudi government pushing their way no matter what the Olympic rules and regulations are.

As far as the head covering is concerned, here in Europe, the Netherlands/France for that matter the social pressure is enormous to cover the head.

Though, there are some courageous women, Wafa Sultan, Ayaan Hirshi Ali, Fadela Amara (ni putes, ni soumises) who fight the oppressing nature of islam in particular towards women.

I live in one of the major cities here in Holland and when (young) women walk on the streets without a head scarf, young muslim men are hissing 'whore' when passing by.

Every religion that forces their women to rap up themselves because apparantly men can't control themselves is reprehensible.

[heinz57]

I mean on this FJ forum it is ok to snark and critisise fundie christians and orthodox jews.

For the record, I resent all religions. I am perfectly ok with people believing in some sort of deity no matter what flavour it is, as long as they don't bother the rest of society.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_sc ... _in_France

yes, fundie Christians, orthodox Jews and fundamentalist Muslims. Once again, my beef with what you write is that it suggests all Muslims are fundamentalists.

And I don't see what the veil in France has to do with anything??? It is forbidden in France to be veiled in schools and in public institutions, as it is forbidden to wear a kippah, or a cross on your neck - it's how the French interpret the separation of religion and state. It is also forbidden in Turkey and Indonesia. But I don't even understand why you pull the Wikipedia quote. As proof that the Muslims "bother the rest of the society"?

It is exactly the vile islamic antisemitism I really resent. Jews in the Netherlands and in France for that matter can't openly wear their kippah without being bullied mocked and attacked and frankly I don't care wether it is by christians,catholics, baptists, hindus, sikhs or muslims, wahabists, sunnis or shiites.

One example:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18357812

Why do you resent the islamic antisemitism exactly? I resent all antisemitism equally.

I'm sorry, but frankly you appear to be pulling a bit of a strawman. You say you resent all religions but really you seem to have a specific problem with Islam.

[Guest Anonymous]

For Linnea27's question:

Obviously I can't answer for anyone else, but I do have some opinions on snarking on Muslims vs. snarking on Jews and Christians. For me, it comes down to the fact that I don't know much about Islam. I live in a Christian country (with an official religion), I went to a Catholic school, and I am pretty immersed in a Jewish community now (though I am not Jewish myself). I don't understand as much about Judaism or Christianity as some of the other FJers, but I can scare up a Bible quote and vague recollections about episodes from the Midrash from somewhere in the back of my mind. I can't do this for Islam and so I don't. Obviously, this is my own shortcoming, and I should certainly do something about it, but until I do I'm not so confident snarking on things.

I don't agree that if most Muslims were tested by Christian fundy standards they would be proven fundies. That might just be because the Muslims I know are straightforwardly secular or, otherwise, kept their religious stuff pretty private.

Deleted a weird typo, despite the fact that this has already been quoted in full.

[linnea27]

For Linnea27's question:

Obviously I can't answer for anyone else, but I do have some opinions on snarking on Muslims vs. snarking on Jews and Christians. For me, it comes down to the fact that I don't know much about Islam. I live in a Christian country (with an official religion), I went to a Catholic school, and I am pretty immersed in a Jewish community now (though I am not Jewish myself). I don't understand as much about Judaism or Christianity as some of the other FJers, but I can scare up a Bible quote and a could of vague recollections about episodes from the Midrash from somewhere in the back of my mind. I can't do this for Islam and so I don't. Obviously, this is my own shortcoming, and I should certainly do something about it, but until I do I'm not so confident snarking on things.

I don't agree that if most Muslims were tested by Christian fundy standards they would be proven fundies. That might just be because the Muslims I know are straightforwardly secular or, otherwise, kept their religious stuff pretty private.

Interesting, although now I feel bad because I don't know much more about Christianity than I do about Islam. lol. I was raised to be fairly staunchly athiest, and most of what I know about Christianity comes from these boards or my husband who was raised Jehovah's Witness, which some don't consider true Christianity.

All the Muslims I know tend to be rather "fundie" by the standards we place on Christian fundies (fully-covered, very anti-same-sex marriage, women don't usually work, women are expected to be submissive, etc), although to be fair it's entirely possible that I do know some people who are in fact Muslim and just don't advertise it.

[B5SnowDog]

All the Muslims I know tend to be rather "fundie" by the standards we place on Christian fundies (fully-covered, very anti-same-sex marriage, women don't usually work, women are expected to be submissive, etc), although to be fair it's entirely possible that I do know some people who are in fact Muslim and just don't advertise it.

When I was in college, I knew several people who were Muslim. My adviser was Muslim and she was the opposite of what you describe. She taught at the college, was working on her Ph.D., and worked in the lab at the local hospital. She was an excellent instructor.