Female Arab/Muslim Athletes on the rise

[Patsy]

Oh. My. God. CORRECT. The Koran contains incorrect science, and Muslims' attempts to explain it away by saying that it actually predicts science nobody knew at the time is futile. YES. I AGREE. The embryology example is particularly pathetic.

That doesn't change the fact that many scientific discoveries came from the Muslim world. That the Koran did not keep them in a tribal society.

[Deleted03]

I asked a friend recently why I knew so many muslims who would always add after I'm muslim: I'm not a good muslim. I don't know any christian who does that (do you?). She explained to me that you grow in the faith. It means that you are born as muslim, but then it is up to you alone (well with often nagging from family) to become a good muslim who does the five pillars, etc, etc.

Being muslim it's about growing in the faith, it's not simply about following all the edicts. And that is why some women cover, some don't. They do what they feel called to.

I don't know if I explained it well, but it is simply another way of comprehending religion.

Now, in addition to this flexibility of what you do with your religion, there are many cultural practices that come into consideration in addition to political practices that make some things mandatory (like the veil) rather than leaving this up to the individual.

Latraviata, what country did you live in? I think it matters a lot in what kind of experience you had.

I think that there are practices that are very unequal gender wise in first generation immigrant: guys are allowed much more slack than women are. Which does not mean that women don't do anything, simply they have to hide it better. I am very curious to see what the second generation will do in the family I personally know.

[mpheels]

In short, there is nothing to celebrate. The headscarf during the Olympics is a negative trend, it is haggling with Western values ​​because with a bit of discrimination against women set the door open for more. Look for inspiration to Islamic countries. Now all the women are set back a little behind because a woman with a headscarf on JUDOMAT appears. Who does not see!

The Olympics are a global event, and it is beyond arrogant to place Western values as the standard all other nations must meet. We have no more right to tell athletes from Asia or Africa how to dress than they do to tell us. If the Saudis were refusing to compete unless all women wore head coverings, then there would be a problem. They aren't doing that. They are imposing their laws on their people, and even then it was a relaxed version of their laws, evidenced by the fact that female Saudi athletes appeared on international TV broadcasts without abayas.

If we start banning athletes from oppressive societies, half the teams in London would be ineligible. The IOC could choose to make national participation contingent on humans rights standards, but they don't because that would be counter productive. Welcoming participation by athletes from Saudi Arabia, China, North Korea, and other countries with questionable human rights practices gives the athletes a chance to see the world without the restrictions they are used to. Once they know what life is like "on the other side" they are more likely to fight for change at home.

Wojdan Shaherkani competed with her head covered. She lasted about 80 seconds. Not because her head was covered, but because she was woefully unqualified to be in the competition (yeah, I still think that was a larger factor in the conflict over her participation). Her presence was purely symbolic, and the IOC knew it. They specifically invited her because they felt it a female Saudi athlete with her hair covered was better for human rights in the long run than no female Saudi athlete at all. It was basic diplomacy.

As for religious symbols worn by athletes in general, male Sikh athletes are allowed to wear turbans while competing. Female Christian athletes were allowed to wear running skirts during track competitions long before running skirts were trendy. I've lost count of how many crosses and saint's medals I've seen around athletes' necks in the past week - even in sports were there is a significant risk of jewelry getting caught and causing injury. The Olympics cannot ban head covering for Muslim women until they are ready to ban all other religious symbols and clothing - in other words, never.

Now as long as we're talking about oppression of female athletes, how about the fact that these Olympics are the first international competition where female beach volleyball players are allowed to wear anything less revealing than a bikini...

[heinz57]

Semantics,that is that your argument?

I never call people names, but I think you are a vindictive cow.

Your lack of knowledge of Europe is painfully obvious. If it is any consolation, you are not the only one here.

The composition and social backround of the non-Western community in relation to western immigrants and the native population is so very different than in the USA and Canada who originally always been countries of emigration to begin with.

But I suspect that you do not care so I'll spare you the information about the matter.

Because you have decided that I am a hating bigot.

Canadian hippie and the rest of North American FJers - for the record, I find your assessment and your experiences very similar to mine. And I'm European born and bred, living in Paris (where about 10% of inhabitants declare to be Muslim) and you find all kinds and flavors of Muslims here. I know covering/uncovering women, people eating halal/non-halal, mixed marriages... Basically a whole gradation of human behaviors, just like if Muslims were normal human beings :o (sarcasm)

So don't fall into the same trap and based on some unfortunate examples think that all europeans are bigots - or that indeed you're not qualified to think differently because "your lack of knowledge of Europe is painfully obvious".

[latraviata]

I asked a friend recently why I knew so many muslims who would always add after I'm muslim: I'm not a good muslim. I don't know any christian who does that (do you?). She explained to me that you grow in the faith. It means that you are born as muslim, but then it is up to you alone (well with often nagging from family) to become a good muslim who does the five pillars, etc, etc.

Being muslim it's about growing in the faith, it's not simply about following all the edicts. And that is why some women cover, some don't. They do what they feel called to.

I don't know if I explained it well, but it is simply another way of comprehending religion.

Now, in addition to this flexibility of what you do with your religion, there are many cultural practices that come into consideration in addition to political practices that make some things mandatory (like the veil) rather than leaving this up to the individual.

Latraviata, what country did you live in? I think it matters a lot in what kind of experience you had.

I think that there are practices that are very unequal gender wise in first generation immigrant: guys are allowed much more slack than women are. Which does not mean that women don't do anything, simply they have to hide it better. I am very curious to see what the second generation will do in the family I personally know.

Turkey, Kuweit, Syria and Abu Dhabi. We lived on coumpounds with the exeption of Turkey, but even in the compound countries I always had a job outside.

Turkey at that time was genuinly secular. The islamisation of Turkey is a fact, jews are leaving the country, the Alevi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alevi) are bullied and lately there were a few chistian churches and synagogues burning.

The Turkish president (his wife is wrapped up from head to foot) stated, 'there is no such thing as a liberal or moderate islam, there is only one islam.'

I live in the Netherlands and the accretian of non western immigrants started in the early sixties, that means many are third and fourth generation.

[latraviata]

Canadian hippie and the rest of North American FJers - for the record, I find your assessment and your experiences very similar to mine. And I'm European born and bred, living in Paris (where about 10% of inhabitants declare to be Muslim) and you find all kinds and flavors of Muslims here. I know covering/uncovering women, people eating halal/non-halal, mixed marriages... Basically a whole gradation of human behaviors, just like if Muslims were normal human beings :o (sarcasm)

So don't fall into the same trap and based on some unfortunate examples think that all europeans are bigots - or that indeed you're not qualified to think differently because "your lack of knowledge of Europe is painfully obvious".

Nothing wrong in the banlieue??

We are all bigots in Europe and we don't shave our armpits.

[galaxygirl]

Turkey, isn't that the country that had a female prime minister, something a lot of the western countries haven't had yet?

[freejoytoo]

I never seen such a horrific display of Islamaphobia.

I'm in Europe and I have no problem with Muslims. I have a problem with fundy Muslims as I do with fundy Christians but not all Muslims are fundamentalists!

[latraviata]

Turkey, isn't that the country that had a female prime minister, something a lot of the western countries haven't had yet?

No.

[latraviata]

I never seen such a horrific display of Islamaphobia.

I'm in Europe and I have no problem with Muslims. I have a problem with fundy Muslims as I do with fundy Christians but not all Muslims are fundamentalists!

Yes, but there are a lot of fundie muslims.

Initially I was talking about islam and suddenly it was translated into muslims, perhaps you should read the entire thread.

But on the other hand the damage has been done, because people love and ejoy pointing fingers so they can feel good about themselves.

[mpheels]

I'm sure Tansu Ciller would be interested in learning she is not female. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tansu_%C3%87iller

[latraviata]

I'm sure Tansu Ciller would be interested in learning she is not female. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tansu_%C3%87iller

It is not true that a lot of western countries didn't have.

[shesinsane]

I asked a friend recently why I knew so many muslims who would always add after I'm muslim: I'm not a good muslim. I don't know any christian who does that (do you?). She explained to me that you grow in the faith. It means that you are born as muslim, but then it is up to you alone (well with often nagging from family) to become a good muslim who does the five pillars, etc, etc.

Being muslim it's about growing in the faith, it's not simply about following all the edicts. And that is why some women cover, some don't. They do what they feel called to.

I don't know if I explained it well, but it is simply another way of comprehending religion.

Now, in addition to this flexibility of what you do with your religion, there are many cultural practices that come into consideration in addition to political practices that make some things mandatory (like the veil) rather than leaving this up to the individual.

Latraviata, what country did you live in? I think it matters a lot in what kind of experience you had.

I think that there are practices that are very unequal gender wise in first generation immigrant: guys are allowed much more slack than women are. Which does not mean that women don't do anything, simply they have to hide it better. I am very curious to see what the second generation will do in the family I personally know.

I know people who considered themselves "Bad Jews" because they don't follow all the rules exactly. For Christians, I'll admit I've never heard someone describe themselves as a "Bad Christian", but I know "Cafeteria Catholics" who consider themselves Catholic but the only time they attend church is Christmas and Easter and they don't follow the many rules of the R.C.C.

Instead of Bad Christian, I do hear people say "that's not very Christian of me" "that wouldn't be a Christian thing to do", etc.

I think maybe because they're usually the minority, Jews and Muslims feel more pressure to walk the religious straight and narrow 24/7. Christians give themselves more leniency.

[latraviata]

I know people who considered themselves "Bad Jews" because they don't follow all the rules exactly. For Christians, I'll admit I've never heard someone describe themselves as a "Bad Christian", but I know "Cafeteria Catholics" who consider themselves Catholic but the only time they attend church is Christmas and Easter and they don't follow the many rules of the R.C.C.

Instead of Bad Christian, I do hear people say "that's not very Christian of me" "that wouldn't be a Christian thing to do", etc.

I think maybe because they're usually the minority, Jews and Muslims feel more pressure to walk the religious straight and narrow 24/7. Christians give themselves more leniency.

True and now i feel free, at last, to say something about this.

My avatar shows the daughter of my Pakistani domestic help. Before somebody feels the need to accuse me of being an aristocratic feudal bitch. I need domestic help twice a month because I have a paresis due to a spinal stenoses, in other words I am a cripple.

Anyway, as said my help is from Pakistan and married a Dutch/Surinamese man coming from an muslim family, granted the Surinamese muslims are not particularly the most fanatic ones, their faith is fading away for many generations now, more tradition than actual faith.

He is an atheist and she not quite. She is very happy with her husband and living in the Netherlands and not obliged to wear a veil so she doesn't.

She is telling me the stories about how horrible the situation towards women is in Pakistan and believe me it is.

She is pregnant of her third child (not visable yet) and has to explain over and over to the muslims in her neighbourhood other than the Surinam 'muslim' why she doesn't fast during ramadan. Her husband and her in laws eat secretly for the same reasons.

Second my my Moroccan grocer/greengrocer. A very hardworking sweet man, with 5 sons who thanks to his strict demeanor all having an education and in their spare time work in the shop to avoid trouble, as he puts it.

He is religious, I know because when my son died he asked me wether I was religious, I said no and he said well I am.

During one of our converstions I asked him about his wife, again all wrapped up, he said, I don't think it is necessery, but if she doesn't we will be shunned and bullied by the community and have a miserable life.

In other words there is a enormous social pressure from the muslim community.

[JesusFightClub]

I am in Europe.

Not going to fight with anyone on the thread but when it comes to religion I have no problems with anyone who isn't oppressing others.

I've known devout Muslims who were anarchists and devout Muslims who are communists. I'm slightly confused by this and suspect in a future society we might have less religion ;) but it is surely right they can practice their beliefs in peace.

The level of Islamophobia nowadays is concerning. You only have to say "I think Israel's policy is a bit off on this point, you see it's just that... to be met with hysterical accusations of hating all Jews. But if you say the wildest things about Muslims you're accepted and even applauded. If I was a Muslim nervous wouldn't begin to describe how I'd feel.

Every section of society has its bad types. Ask me how I know :(

We should support our Muslim sisters in competing, IMO.

[Sunnichick31]

Turkey, Kuweit, Syria and Abu Dhabi. We lived on coumpounds with the exeption of Turkey, but even in the compound countries I always had a job outside.

Turkey at that time was genuinly secular. The islamisation of Turkey is a fact, jews are leaving the country, the Alevi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alevi) are bullied and lately there were a few chistian churches and synagogues burning.

The Turkish president (his wife is wrapped up from head to foot) stated, 'there is no such thing as a liberal or moderate islam, there is only one islam.'

I live in the Netherlands and the accretian of non western immigrants started in the early sixties, that means many are third and fourth generation.

Turkey is still a secular country. Many of my friends came here because it was hard to ouwardly practice religion in Turkey. Having to choose between having a job and covering their hair, or having to choose between having a job and praying (when my husband was in the mililtary there, he couldn't let any of the higher-ups see him praying or else he would have been given hell.)

Yes, but there are a lot of fundie muslims.

And your definition of a fundie Muslim is...??

The Olympics are a global event, and it is beyond arrogant to place Western values as the standard all other nations must meet. We have no more right to tell athletes from Asia or Africa how to dress than they do to tell us. If the Saudis were refusing to compete unless all women wore head coverings, then there would be a problem. They aren't doing that. They are imposing their laws on their people, and even then it was a relaxed version of their laws, evidenced by the fact that female Saudi athletes appeared on international TV broadcasts without abayas.

If we start banning athletes from oppressive societies, half the teams in London would be ineligible. The IOC could choose to make national participation contingent on humans rights standards, but they don't because that would be counter productive. Welcoming participation by athletes from Saudi Arabia, China, North Korea, and other countries with questionable human rights practices gives the athletes a chance to see the world without the restrictions they are used to. Once they know what life is like "on the other side" they are more likely to fight for change at home.

This. so much this.

Very interesting read:

http://www.apostatesofislam.com/index.htm

I read through some of the stories on here, and half of the ones that I read through had problems with culture, and a lot of the women converted for men, not for themselves. The first story I read even admited that the person who taught her religion was uneducated herself (http://www.faithfreedom.org/Testimonials/parvin.htm Lots of cultural problems too. A lot of it is dusgusting culture, and it should be done away with, but that doesnt' mean that the religion needs to be done away with too.) Also, is a website for ex-Muslims really the best way to be learning about Islam? I mean, if I wanted to learn about Judaism or Sikhism I wouldn't ask a non-Jew or a non-Sikh, I'd ask someone who is practicing.

We should support our Muslim sisters in competing, IMO.

Thank you JFC!

[Sunnichick31]

I am in Europe.

Not going to fight with anyone on the thread but when it comes to religion I have no problems with anyone who isn't oppressing others.

I've known devout Muslims who were anarchists and devout Muslims who are communists. I'm slightly confused by this and suspect in a future society we might have less religion ;) but it is surely right they can practice their beliefs in peace.

The level of Islamophobia nowadays is concerning. You only have to say "I think Israel's policy is a bit off on this point, you see it's just that... to be met with hysterical accusations of hating all Jews. But if you say the wildest things about Muslims you're accepted and even applauded. If I was a Muslim nervous wouldn't begin to describe how I'd feel.

Every section of society has its bad types. Ask me how I know :(

We should support our Muslim sisters in competing, IMO.

Eh, I don't see too much of a problem with Muslim communism or Muslim anarchy. The only conflict I can think of is generally communists are athiests, but aside from that one point, I can't think of any other conflicts. I don't know much about either of those things though, so I might be wrong.

[CanadianHippie]

Nothing wrong in the banlieue??

We are all bigots in Europe and we don't shave our armpits.

No, just you and a few others. You may be fine with generalizing, but most of the rest of us aren't. Which is a good thing, it means your biases won't affect how we view the larger European population.

[latraviata]

The level of Islamophobia nowadays is concerning. You only have to say "I think Israel's policy is a bit off on this point, you see it's just that... to be met with hysterical accusations of hating all Jews. But if you say the wildest things about Muslims you're accepted and even applauded. If I was a Muslim nervous wouldn't begin to describe how I'd feel.

So is antisemitism.

And as far as I know, Muslims are not persecuted and gassed.

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/2122/ ... -in-europe

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/04/world ... wanted=all

[heinz57]

Nothing wrong in the banlieue??

We are all bigots in Europe and we don't shave our armpits.

There are plenty of things wrong with the banlieue. They have nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with lack of integration of big groups of immigrants, poverty, lack of education, cultural desert, lack of social mixity, stigma etc. The problems with banlieues are the exact same problems that the US are facing with their "inner cities" (and not many Muslims there), and to certain extent that Brazil is facing with the favelas (same) - in short, a sociological problem and not a problem with those evil Muslims.

And I didn't understand what you meant about the armpits.

[JesusFightClub]

Eh, I don't see too much of a problem with Muslim communism or Muslim anarchy. The only conflict I can think of is generally communists are athiests, but aside from that one point, I can't think of any other conflicts. I don't know much about either of those things though, so I might be wrong.

That was my main point of confusion with communism and Islam :D Communists are normally in a range from non to anti religious, so the Muslim communists I know confuse me a bit.

I asked my comrade who's an anarchist about Muslims and anarchism. He pointed out a comrade of ours who's Muslim and anarchist and he said that he finds this to be an unusual mix but acceptable. He said "Possibly it's a cultural thing to self define as Muslim, I certainly wouldn't want to deny the right to anyone."

Anarchos generally go the "no gods, no masters" route, and this comrade of ours says "I am an atheist but I'm still a Muslim". Not sure what you would reckon to that? I also had an (apolitical) friend who used to call herself a Muslim nihilist :?:

[latraviata]

There are plenty of things wrong with the banlieue. They have nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with lack of integration of big groups of immigrants, poverty, lack of education, cultural desert, lack of social mixity, stigma etc. The problems with banlieues are the exact same problems that the US are facing with their "inner cities" (and not many Muslims there), and to certain extent that Brazil is facing with the favelas (same) - in short, a sociological problem and not a problem with those evil Muslims.

And I didn't understand what you meant about the armpits.

You can't be serious, many problems in the banlieues have nothing to do with islam???

Are you so afraid of being discriminatory that you just deny it?

You don't do them any favour by not acknowledging the problems, this way they will never be solved.

And you honestly believe it is just the fault of French society?

That is so patronising not holding certain groups accountable for their own behaviour. They are thinking human beings and no victims. Well, they rape, murder, steal but you know what in fact they are victims of our society, they can't help themselves.

That is what I really resent, well they are victims because we are all doing them wrong, you really think that helps?

I am very glad with this lot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ni_Putes_Ni_Soumises

During 40/45 and the Germans occupied Europe, nobody said well, they are horrible but there are good Germans too.

Of course there were good Germans but that doesn't wipe away the horrors caused by these monsters or should I say 'victims' of society.

[heinz57]

During 40/45 and the Germans occupied Europe, nobody said well, they are horrible but there are good Germans too.

Of course there were good Germans but that doesn't wipe away the horrors caused by these monsters or should I say 'victims' of society.

I thought I read it wrong, but no.

You really have just likened Muslim immigrants to the Nazis.

This is vile and unbelievably offensive not only to Muslims, but also to Jews and every single victim of the Holocaust and the Nazi occupation.

As a Jew, a Pole, and, frankly, a human being, I find it despicable.

[freejoytoo]

...wow. No words.

[latraviata]

I thought I read it wrong, but no.

You really have just likened Muslim immigrants to the Nazis.

This is vile and unbelievably offensive not only to Muslims, but also to Jews and every single victim of the Holocaust and the Nazi occupation.

As a Jew, a Pole, and, frankly, a human being, I find it despicable.

It was not a comparison at all, but an example of illogical and irrational reasoning.