Female Arab/Muslim Athletes on the rise

[emmiedahl]

And yet, she was filmed and her image broadcast around the world with far less covering than is legally required in Saudi Arabia (an abaya), or what is socially required/expected in most major Saudi cities (abaya + niqab). That is a huge step forward for a country that would not allow female athletes under any circumstances four years ago. Just think about how many women in Saudi Arabia and other countries with forced modesty saw her on TV, saw her wearing a gi, a swim cap, and nothing else. How many young women will now question the required abaya? How many will now push to participate in sports?

I also think it interesting that you apparently have no interest in the other female Saudi athlete - Sarah Attar. Her head is uncovered in her official photo on the US broadcast webpage, and she competes in US college track meets in shorts, tank tops, and with her head uncovered. She will compete in the Olympics with long pants/sleeves and with her hair covered per the Saudi team rule. She is a dual Saudi/US citizen and has lived in the US her whole life. She could have pursued her Olympic dream with the US, but she chose to compete with the Saudis despite the required head covering.

My understanding is that there is no media coverage of the female athletes in SA. Their competing was forbidden by various important religious people. It is a huge break with Wahhabi Islam on the part of the government and they are keeping it on the downlow within the country. They were faced at the last minute with having to withdraw their male Olympians if they did not send women. They decided not to send a runner from within the country because it would be dangerous for her. Sarah Attar was not involved in the level of training normally seen in Olympians (I read she has not ran competitively since high school), so it is a huge opportunity for her as well. The Saudi government is not paying for any of the expenses of the female athletes or promoting them in any way. This was a compromise that would make many people in SA very angry.

I don't think many people will argue that the government of Saudi Arabia is not oppressive and misogynist, but it is one small subset of Islam. There are many Muslim women at the Games who are not from Saudi Arabia. I saw a Turkish gymnast who was in normal attire. Obviously there are many moderate Islamic countries out there.

[CanadianHippie]

I sobbed ridiculously reading this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ondon.html

You know, looking at how some of those women have covered, I realize now I'm just a poor, oppressed woman forced to hide myself because on any given day I will be just as covered up as them. Well, if I could find my under scarf, and I really wish I could cause it is great for keeping hair off my neck. But yeah, long pants, long sleeves, and hair tied up under a scarf.

Pretty much something like this with looser pants.

[emmiedahl]

Here are pictures of her running in the US, and then in the Olympics.

I think it is obvious that she is covering because of who she is running for. But it has nothing to do with Islam. She is the same Muslim woman in both photos. Her Saudi, Muslim parents allowed her to compete in the outfit to the left. Obviously they do not agree with some of the issues in fundamental Islam.

[shesinsane]

Here are pictures of her running in the US, and then in the Olympics.

I think it is obvious that she is covering because of who she is running for. But it has nothing to do with Islam. She is the same Muslim woman in both photos. Her Saudi, Muslim parents allowed her to compete in the outfit to the left. Obviously they do not agree with some of the issues in fundamental Islam.

She's representing her country, and her country has specific laws about women's dress in public.

In a more practical sense, her Olympics outfit makes it easier for footage of her to be aired in her home country. Her US track outfit might be considered inappropriate for a Saudi woman, making the news reluctant to air her. For Saudi media, her covered self is a less controversial image that might let the story be about her and the Olympics, not what she's wearing. Maybe she's got some conservative relatives who will only watch her compete if she's covered to their standards.

[emmiedahl]

She's representing her country, and her country has specific laws about women's dress in public.

In a more practical sense, her Olympics outfit makes it easier for footage of her to be aired in her home country. Her US track outfit might be considered inappropriate for a Saudi woman, making the news reluctant to air her. For Saudi media, her covered self is a less controversial image that might let the story be about her and the Olympics, not what she's wearing. Maybe she's got some conservative relatives who will only watch her compete if she's covered to their standards.

I agree that she is representing SA and when in Rome, etc. Major news outlets have reported that the Saudi women will not be shown or even mentioned in the media there. Of course some people still will find out, this being a very connected era.

[latraviata]

QFT.

ETA- Welcome to my foe list Latraviata. You're just as bigoted and self-rightous as the fundies we snark on. No one could possibly be right except for you. I have no patience for that. Good riddence.

Thank you, promise I will remain on your list??

[latraviata]

“And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband’s fathers, their sons, their husbands’ sons, their brothers or their brothers’ sons, or their sisters’ sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss.†Sura 24:31

Sura 33:59 reads:

“O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested.â€

4:34 Husbands should take full care of their wives, with [the bounties] God has given to some more than others and with what they spend out of their own money. Righteous wives are devout and guard what God would have them guard in the husbands’ absence. If you fear high-handedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great.

4:34 ... As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly) ...

4:34 As for women you feel are averse, talk to them suasively; then leave them alone in bed (without molesting them) and go to bed with them (when they are willing).

You have rights over your wives and they have rights over you. You have the right that they should not defile your bed and that they should not behave with open unseemliness. If they do, God allows you to put them in separate rooms and to beat them but not with severity. If they refrain from these things, they have the right to their food and clothing with kindness. Lay injunctions on women kindly, for they are prisoners with you having no control of their own persons.

Culture or religion??

[mpheels]

Sarah Attar has been running for Pepperdine University, she just hasn't been running at the distance she is going to run in London. She wouldn't have qualified for the Olympics on her own, but was invited by the IOC. I highly doubt she will medal, but she is more qualified to be there than Wojdan Shahrkhani, and should have a better finish. I believe/hope she will also act with the same level of grace and maturity. I was mostly trying to point out that she chose to cover in order to compete in the Olympics. She was born and raised in the US, and as emmiedahl pointed out, he parents clearly don't require her to cover. The Saudi government is requiring her cto over, but they didn't require her participation. She could have said no, and gone on with her life in California.

[So Many Lies]

QFT.

ETA- Welcome to my foe list Latraviata. You're just as bigoted and self-rightous as the fundies we snark on. No one could possibly be right except for you. I have no patience for that. Good riddence.

Just wondering why do you want to snark on christian fundies sunnichick? No really. I think you are a nice person based on responses I have read of yours,to various issues on fj but it seems weird to try to debate dogma/scripture when a lot of people on here are secular humanists...I'm not saying you have to be non religious to enjoy a good anti zsu fest but directing people to the qa'ran etc. well, its a lot (ahem, exactly) like directing lost souls to the king james bible....circular logic that is extremely snarkworthy.

[emmiedahl]

Latraviata, the Tanakh has the same shit in it. Are you implying that reform Jews are terrorists and dangers to society? I am looking around my family for the oppressed females and I cannot seem to find any.

Any book written by misogynists is going to have misogynist crap in it. And the religious among us have to look at the contradictions and decide what fits our personal beliefs about God. <---- See that part? Everyone will read religious documents through a personal lens. Culture is a huge part of that cultural lens. You can think that makes me a stupid misguided sheeple, but you have to know it does not make me a terrorist.

[latraviata]

Latraviata, the Tanakh has the same shit in it. Are you implying that reform Jews are terrorists and dangers to society? I am looking around my family for the oppressed females and I cannot seem to find any.

Any book written by misogynists is going to have misogynist crap in it. And the religious among us have to look at the contradictions and decide what fits our personal beliefs about God. <---- See that part? Everyone will read religious documents through a personal lens. Culture is a huge part of that cultural lens. You can think that makes me a stupid misguided sheeple, but you have to know it does not make me a terrorist.

I never said anything about terrorism in relation to islam, I said something about the suppression of women and antisemitism, homosexuals and infidels.

Yes and we snark on that, don't we? But we don't snark when it is the quran because that makes you a bigot.

And what is my personal, cultural lens exactly? And that means we should deny it? We are not allowed to mock and snarck on it?

[mpheels]

But we don't snark when it is the quran because that makes you a bigot.

No, it makes you a bigot when you snark on ALL Muslims and refuse to accept that there is just as much variation in belief among Muslims as there is among Christians and Jews. You have repeatedly refereed to fundamentalist Jews, fundamentalist Christians, and Muslims with a modifier. Every time you are are implying that all Muslims are fundamentalists, and that simply is true. Just look at the photographs in the article that started this thread - every woman pictured lives in a country that is majority Muslim. Half of the women covered/modest, half are not. There clearly is no one size fits all rule.

You keep posting snippets from the Quran and presenting them as evidence that every Muslim in the world holds to those beliefs. Just about every line you have posted from the Quran has some equivalent in Jewish and/or Christian texts, but you don't seem to have trouble believing that there are Jews and Christians who have non-literal interpretations. Why will you not give the same credit to Muslims?

I don't think anyone here has a problem with calling out fundamentalists of any flavor. Muslims do seem to get less attention here, but they also aren't blogging and signing up for reality TV shoes at the same rate as Christian fundies. As soon as My Big Fat Muslim Family starts airing on TV with the stated purpose of sharing their faith with the world, then we'll start snarking on them as much as we do the Duggars.

[latraviata]

No, it makes you a bigot when you snark on ALL Muslims and refuse to accept that there is just as much variation in belief among Muslims as there is among Christians and Jews. You have repeatedly refereed to fundamentalist Jews, fundamentalist Christians, and Muslims with a modifier. Every time you are are implying that all Muslims are fundamentalists, and that simply is true. Just look at the photographs in the article that started this thread - every woman pictured lives in a country that is majority Muslim. Half of the women covered/modest, half are not. There clearly is no one size fits all rule.

You keep posting snippets from the Quran and presenting them as evidence that every Muslim in the world holds to those beliefs. Just about every line you have posted from the Quran has some equivalent in Jewish and/or Christian texts, but you don't seem to have trouble believing that there are Jews and Christians who have non-literal interpretations. Why will you not give the same credit to Muslims?

I don't think anyone here has a problem with calling out fundamentalists of any flavor. Muslims do seem to get less attention here, but they also aren't blogging and signing up for reality TV shoes at the same rate as Christian fundies. As soon as My Big Fat Muslim Family starts airing on TV with the stated purpose of sharing their faith with the world, then we'll start snarking on them as much as we do the Duggars.

I didn't, initially I snarked on islam, headscarf and islamic countries, I never brought up 'the muslims'. I responded to not all muslims are fundie. No islam is fundie in itself. Of course everywhere in every community there are good people and bad people. I didn't even bother to acknowledge that because the bear was loose anyway.

A few good people isn't an excuse to brush away the actions of the bad people, that is my point.

[Deleted03]

You're not even willing to understand islam is a different religion. It,s not only a few who are progressive, and not all women who cover do it coerced or because they celebrate inequality between women and men.

Even if there are sourates about women having to cover, it does not mean that every Muslim will do it. It does not even mean that they are bad Muslims if they don't do it. It's a process, and a personal journey (No it's not in countries where backward traditions exist, but there are many of those everywhere including in catholic countries; Brazil still struggles with great numbers of 10 and 11 yo pregnant girls, will you tell me these are exerting agency? or are there taken in a backwards community where teaching sex ed, and respect is not done?)

Yes there are bad people, but I don't see how having MORE Muslim female athletes, no matter how they are dressed is a bad thing. It's a proof fundies have to acknowledge women's worth for their countries aside from being meek and submissive.

[galaxygirl]

Yes there are bad people, but I don't see how having MORE Muslim female athletes, no matter how they are dressed is a bad thing. It's a proof fundies have to acknowledge women's worth for their countries aside from being meek and submissive.

I think its fabulous that there are more and more female Muslim athletes and I don't give a flying fuck how they choose to dress while competing. The only thing that concerns me is if the way of dress is causing concern for safety, but everyone seems willing to work with that so all is good.

Slightly related, just read that Fanny Blankers-Koen got hate mail from fellow countrymen before the '48 London Olympics because she was supposed to stay home and take care of her kids(think of the baybees!!), she went and won 4 gold medals, which is still a record for a female track and field athlete. No one even bats an eye anymore if a woman who has kids competes, so lots of progress has been made there. I firmly believe that in a decade or so seeing many female Muslim athletes won't be a big deal either.

[latraviata]

You're not even willing to understand islam is a different religion. It,s not only a few who are progressive, and not all women who cover do it coerced or because they celebrate inequality between women and men.

Even if there are sourates about women having to cover, it does not mean that every Muslim will do it. It does not even mean that they are bad Muslims if they don't do it. It's a process, and a personal journey (No it's not in countries where backward traditions exist, but there are many of those everywhere including in catholic countries; Brazil still struggles with great numbers of 10 and 11 yo pregnant girls, will you tell me these are exerting agency? or are there taken in a backwards community where teaching sex ed, and respect is not done?)

Yes there are bad people, but I don't see how having MORE Muslim female athletes, no matter how they are dressed is a bad thing. It's a proof fundies have to acknowledge women's worth for their countries aside from being meek and submissive.

Again I never said that.

On the other hand I don't think we must enable this kind of women's suppression and as far as the quran and the islamic countries are concerned, the head scarf is part of systematic belittling and suppression of women.

Due to the continuous presentation of abuses in other communities and religions, these abuses do not disappear or are less severe. So it is completely pointless.

Moreover we do snark and criticise all religions on Fj or did I miss something?

[Katiebug]

My understanding is that there is no media coverage of the female athletes in SA. Their competing was forbidden by various important religious people. It is a huge break with Wahhabi Islam on the part of the government and they are keeping it on the downlow within the country. They were faced at the last minute with having to withdraw their male Olympians if they did not send women. They decided not to send a runner from within the country because it would be dangerous for her. Sarah Attar was not involved in the level of training normally seen in Olympians (I read she has not ran competitively since high school), so it is a huge opportunity for her as well. The Saudi government is not paying for any of the expenses of the female athletes or promoting them in any way. This was a compromise that would make many people in SA very angry.

I don't think many people will argue that the government of Saudi Arabia is not oppressive and misogynist, but it is one small subset of Islam. There are many Muslim women at the Games who are not from Saudi Arabia. I saw a Turkish gymnast who was in normal attire. Obviously there are many moderate Islamic countries out there.

I read this in an article just the other day - that far from being an inspiration to Saudi women and girls to take up sport, the Saudi press establishment is not really covering the participation of women in the Olympics. They're absolutely not playing it up in any way because the men in charge don't want to encourage such behavior from women and they know that a sizable percentage of their citizens disapprove of women's participation in sports at all. They're only sending women because they had to in order to send their male athletes; before Sarah Attar was named, many observers expected their female Olympians to pull out of competition due to "injury" and I believe the female equestrian competitor (who is also based in a Western country, not Saudi Arabia) did just that. I'm actually kind of shocked that their judoka competed - I had guessed that they wouldn't be able to find a solution for her to be able to compete while covered enough and that she would pull out because of that, while technically the Saudi Olympic committee would have followed the rules enough to let their male athletes compete.

Sarah Attar is a mid-level collegiate athlete. I certainly give her credit for being an NCAA Division I level athlete; having been one myself for a year in college I know what a significant commitment it is. Pepperdine is known for their high performing teams. She competes in cross country in college, but that's much longer distances than the 800 m which is the race that the IOC gave Saudi Arabia the entry for. It seems that it was a matter of the Saudi Olympic committee finding someone who could run the distance. She's not a medal contender at all but she'll still run 800 meters a hell of a lot faster than I could! :lol:

There are women from Middle Eastern countries competing in swimming, gymnastics, etc. which require wearing relatively revealing clothing by the very nature of the sport. Obviously if a woman has a personal conviction against such attire in any circumstances, she would be unable to compete at the Olympics in those events. The pregnant Malaysian shooting competitor was in a hijab in the photos I saw of her, and I've seen pictures of other Muslim women competing in other sports while wearing a hijab and more conservative clothing. It depends on the sport as to whether it can be made modest enough to work with the athlete's personal convictions and/or their country's laws. I was a competitive swimmer in middle and high school and a competitive rower in high school and college. There's no way you can make a competition swim suit modest enough to suit more conservative religious modesty codes, especially now that technical suits are banned. For rowing you could wear a hijab and a loose long-sleeved top, but you really do need rowing shorts or leggings to avoid getting loose fabric caught in the seat track (they're Spandex compression shorts with reinforced seams in the seat and hips and a high back to stay fully covered).

There's such a wide range of belief and practice in the Muslim world, just as in any religion. I have a hard time tarring everyone with the same brush because of the beliefs of the extremists. I'm a fairly liberal Lutheran and trust me, I don't want to be associated with the acts and beliefs of fundamentalist Christians here in the US!

[shesinsane]

That's just sad. Bad enough to go to the Olympics and not win anything, but then to go home and most of your country doesn't even know you competed? Booo on KSA.

[CanadianHippie]

That's just sad. Bad enough to go to the Olympics and not win anything, but then to go home and most of your country doesn't even know you competed? Booo on KSA.

My guess is, despite attempts by the government and media to hide the SA women competing, people know and there are women and some men there who are silently cheering these women on no matter how they fare because of what it stands for; a sign that it is possible to force change. Sometime, the best thing you can do for something is ban it.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I don't believe in our failing Sophie. We have many nationalities and they seem to adjust just fine.

The Turkish people who came to the Netherlands are predominantly from rural Anatolia.

Once I had to evaluate a seventeen year old girl who had killed her baby.

She was shipped off to the Netherlands to marry her 25 years older cousin, of course her parents had arranged that.

Her husband abused her, raped her, isolated her, she couldn't leave the house and was not allowed to use the telephone. Of course she didn't speak Dutch.

This is by the way not an uncommon situation. I have seen many situations like this. They arrange a bride from their village, preferably young, scared along way from home and completely subservient and depending on the husband

This girl snapped and killed her child (3 weeks old) in an extremely violant way, I have seen the photographs, I will spare you the details.

I spoke with her through an interpreter and I can't describe how sad the whole situation was. What is going to happen with her after her time in prison. She can't go back to her village, because she violated the honor of her family. She can't go back to her husband, he disowned her.

The husband's defense was.......it is our religion. The wife stays at home and when she is not obedient I am allowed to beat her up.

If Muslim minorities in other countries are doing better (less income gap, more integration, more opportunities for women), then how can you say that your country is NOT failing when it comes to absorbing and integrating Muslim immigrants? Do you not see ways that issue could be addressed differently?

Let's take a look at your example.

What regulations are in place when it comes to sponsoring a spouse?

What language training is given to immigrants, including sponsored spouses?

What information on Dutch society and women's rights is given to new immigrants, including sponsored spouses? Is any of this information available in languages other than Dutch?

What training is given to doctors and hospitals to identify victims of domestic abuse and/or women lacking adequate support? Are there multilingual posters with information and crisis hotline numbers?

Is there a program to send public health nurses to visit new mothers within a week of the birth?

Are there women's centers located in immigrant areas?

Does the government would with the local mosques to offer programs?

How integrated are the neighborhoods?

Will kids go to school with kids from other backgrounds?

[JesusFightClub]

Hello LaTrav,

I hope this doesn't seem like a pile-on. When I was a Christian I had similar thoughts about Muslims, believe me.

What got me thinking was when I had a Muslim for a best mate at school. This was when I moved schools from religious back again to state (long story). This Muslim girl remembered me from state primary where we were friends. She spoke openly and honestly about her faith.

She said she loved Allah and his prophet but she was struggling with some of her (Pakistani) cultural traditions. She was quite devout, she covered fully but wouldn't cover her head. She said it was more important that men didn't see her legs etc than that they didn't see her hair. She observed Ramadan.

From this I think Islam may be complex? Like how Sunnichick is a person IIRC who wears a niqab. But she supports gay marriage.

We should not be too quick to judge. We may make mistakes (like I did with you).

LOL at you trying Trainspotting! Good shot. You need to hear it like it's spoken in your head. Easier for me than for you, because I think in Scots :lol: But well done for even trying.

JFC

[latraviata]

Hello LaTrav,

I hope this doesn't seem like a pile-on. When I was a Christian I had similar thoughts about Muslims, believe me.

What got me thinking was when I had a Muslim for a best mate at school. This was when I moved schools from religious back again to state (long story). This Muslim girl remembered me from state primary where we were friends. She spoke openly and honestly about her faith.

She said she loved Allah and his prophet but she was struggling with some of her (Pakistani) cultural traditions. She was quite devout, she covered fully but wouldn't cover her head. She said it was more important that men didn't see her legs etc than that they didn't see her hair. She observed Ramadan.

From this I think Islam may be complex? Like how Sunnichick is a person IIRC who wears a niqab. But she supports gay marriage.

We should not be too quick to judge. We may make mistakes (like I did with you).

LOL at you trying Trainspotting! Good shot. You need to hear it like it's spoken in your head. Easier for me than for you, because I think in Scots :lol: But well done for even trying.

JFC

I have seen the movie (I loved it), that was a lot easier.

[freejoytoo]

OT, but I managed to read Trainspotting without being Scottish - it was a struggle but I made it!

[latraviata]

If Muslim minorities in other countries are doing better (less income gap, more integration, more opportunities for women), then how can you say that your country is NOT failing when it comes to absorbing and integrating Muslim immigrants? Do you not see ways that issue could be addressed differently?

Let's take a look at your example.

What regulations are in place when it comes to sponsoring a spouse?

What language training is given to immigrants, including sponsored spouses?

What information on Dutch society and women's rights is given to new immigrants, including sponsored spouses? Is any of this information available in languages other than Dutch?

What training is given to doctors and hospitals to identify victims of domestic abuse and/or women lacking adequate support? Are there multilingual posters with information and crisis hotline numbers?

Is there a program to send public health nurses to visit new mothers within a week of the birth?

Are there women's centers located in immigrant areas?

Does the government would with the local mosques to offer programs?

How integrated are the neighborhoods?

Will kids go to school with kids from other backgrounds?

To all the questions, YES.

But when the Dutch administration wants some advice regarding this matter, I'll refer them to you.

[2xx1xy1JD]

They weren't all yes or no questions.

Are you familiar with the experience of minority Muslim communities outside of Europe? I'm not saying that everything is 100% perfect, but the integration is better. You don't, for example, have the banlieu problem.

I've read Ayaan Hirsi Ali's book Infidel, which talks about the Dutch refugee system. There's no question that it is generous, but she does point out areas in which it is not working well. Muslim immigrants are not being integrated into the rest of Dutch society. I understand that immigrant groups naturally want to stay together, but lack of integration starts to affect employment, feelings of inclusion in the larger society and adoption of the social values of the surrounding society. In North American, public schools are one of the main tools of integration, but I understand that the Netherlands has separate special religious schools for Muslims.