Female Arab/Muslim Athletes on the rise

[CanadianHippie]

I don't think headcovering or not headcovering makes you a fundie Muslim vs. a "normal everyday" Muslim. Certainly there are cultural identity issues. And honestly, if a woman wants to cover herself for religious reasons but holds no judgment against those who don't and is not being coerced, then who cares? To compare every woman who adopts hijab to the Wahhabis is like comparing Modern Orthodox women to the Ger Hassidim. A certain level of religious observance alone does not make you a fundie.

+1

I think someone like latriviata would have a heart attack if she had to sit in on a discussion regarding gender and sexual orientation in children, or adolescent sexuality in some classes I've take at Uni. Among the most progressive students voicing their opinion were women who covered. One of them even discussed her experience as a Muslim woman who covers and chooses to live with her fiancee before marriage.

[latraviata]

+1

I think someone like latriviata would have a heart attack if she had to sit in on a discussion regarding gender and sexual orientation in children, or adolescent sexuality in some classes I've take at Uni. Among the most progressive students voicing their opinion were women who covered. One of them even discussed her experience as a Muslim woman who covers and chooses to live with her fiancee before marriage.

I am a developmental psychologist, I have seen and treated cases you can only dream about.

Read my postings carefully and you will find out that the base my resentment towards religions is the intolerance, cruelty, bias and discrimination.

[CanadianHippie]

I am a developmental psychologist, I have seen and treated cases you can only dream about.

Read my postings carefully and you will find out that the base my resentment towards religions is the intolerance, cruelty, bias and discrimination.

You missed the point of my post completely. It has nothing to do with developmental psychology and everything to do with the fact that some of the most progressive view points regarding sex, sexuality and gender identity came from practicing Muslim women who cover.

[Guest Anonymous]

latraviata

Your 'resentment towards religions' presents itself in the form of wild generalizations about all Muslims and that pathetic excuse for a defense "You know that your argument is nonsense, I won't give you any reasons why it's nonsense, I'll just pretend that everybody accepts my viewpoint and is being difficult for no reason". Your 'resentment towards religions' manifests itself almost exclusively as a hatred and bigotry (Oh, by any other name, I'm sure!) towards Islam with only the most nominal reference to any other faith.

I used to wonder how my fellow Europeans could be so easily suckered in to supporting legislation that restricted religious freedom for Muslims, why they were so disgustingly happy to ban the veil, and how they could honestly believe that it could possibly be the right thing to do. Thank you for the crash course.

[latraviata]

You missed the point of my post completely. It has nothing to do with developmental psychology and everything to do with the fact that some of the most progressive view points regarding sex, sexuality and gender identity came from practicing Muslim women who cover.

I am sorry, apparantly my poor English isn't sufficient enough to understand your eloquent postings. I will be happy to continue this conversation in Dutch, French or German.

Yeah right.

There is a constant battle here in the Nehterlands with practicing muslim medical students boycotting classes because of evolution, very progressive!!

There is a constant battle going on the European schools where practicing young muslims boycot classes regarding the Holocaust.

There is a constant battle going on in public schools from practicing muslim students demanding

a prayer closet/room, christian prayer closets are constantly mocked here on FJ, and rightly so.

Schools are constantly very worried about girls not returning from summer holiday because they have been forced to marry somebody in the motherland.

The list goes on and on and yes I resent that.

[CanadianHippie]

I am sorry, apparantly my poor English isn't sufficient enough to understand your eloquent postings. I will be happy to continue this conversation in Dutch, French or German.

Yeah right.

There is a constant battle here in the Nehterlands with practicing muslim medical students boycotting classes because of evolution, very progressive!!

There is a constant battle going on the European schools where practicing young muslims boycot classes regarding the Holocaust.

There is a constant battle going on in public schools from practicing muslim students demanding

a prayer closet/room, christian prayer closets are constantly mocked here on FJ, and rightly so.

Schools are constantly very worried about girls not returning from summer holiday because they have been forced to marry somebody in the motherland.

The list goes on and on and yes I resent that.

I resent your insistence that we simply ignore our own experience with Muslims because you have a prejudice. Fundies of all sorts are mocked on Free Jinger, but we are also capable of seeing that not all Christians/Jews/Muslims/Pastafarians/random other religion are fundies. You don't seem to understand that not all Muslims are fundamentalist who hold these views. You would rather sit in your little bubble of hate for "the other" than try and expand your understanding.

[latraviata]

latraviata

Your 'resentment towards religions' presents itself in the form of wild generalizations about all Muslims and that pathetic excuse for a defense "You know that your argument is nonsense, I won't give you any reasons why it's nonsense, I'll just pretend that everybody accepts my viewpoint and is being difficult for no reason". Your 'resentment towards religions' manifests itself almost exclusively as a hatred and bigotry (Oh, by any other name, I'm sure!) towards Islam with only the most nominal reference to any other faith.

I used to wonder how my fellow Europeans could be so easily suckered in to supporting legislation that restricted religious freedom for Muslims, why they were so disgustingly happy to ban the veil, and how they could honestly believe that it could possibly be the right thing to do. Thank you for the crash course.

Perhaps it is important to learn more about the European situation which is entirely different than in the traditional immigration countries, such as USA, Canada and Australia.

The ban of the veil in France is only in public schools.

All the arguments, different flavours of islam, wrong translation of the quran, not the religion but culture, we have heard it all. The fact remains, there is constant violence and cruelty in the islamic countries.

It is very easy to call me a hating bigot which I am not. It is the bigotry and hatred in religions including islam that I strongly resent.

If you think I am a bigot, well so be it.

[Guest Anonymous]

latraviata wrote (OK, so I'm paraphrasing a little):

"My argument is right because I say it is. Your argument is wrong because I say it is. You don't get it! I'm right! I'm always right! I'm not hateful (because I say I'm not, despite providing evidence to the contrary in just about everything I say), I'm just resentful and that's different. Huff."

[BlueChair]

Perhaps it is important to learn more about the European situation which is entirely different than in the traditional immigration countries, such as USA, Canada and Australia.

The ban of the veil in France is only in public schools.

All the arguments, different flavours of islam, wrong translation of the quran, not the religion but culture, we have heard it all. The fact remains, there is constant violence and cruelty in the islamic countries.

It is very easy to call me a hating bigot which I am not. It is the bigotry and hatred in religions including islam that I strongly resent.

If you think I am a bigot, well so be it.

There is constant violence and cruelty in my country as well (the U.S.). Peaceful little Norway had a massacre last summer committed by an individual who hated Islam. There is absolutely no way you can construe Muslim nations as having a corner on the violence, cruelty, and hatred market.

[latraviata]

I resent your insistence that we simply ignore our own experience with Muslims because you have a prejudice. Fundies of all sorts are mocked on Free Jinger, but we are also capable of seeing that not all Christians/Jews/Muslims/Pastafarians/random other religion are fundies. You don't seem to understand that not all Muslims are fundamentalist who hold these views. You would rather sit in your little bubble of hate for "the other" than try and expand your understanding.

Fine.

My bubble is not as little as you like it to be. Did you live in islamic countries? Well I did.

As a court expert witness I stood up for battered muslim women, did you??

As far as fundamentalist muslims are concerned. Islam is a fundamentalist religion, the QUran is the undisputed word of god, very rigid and certainly not free for interpretation.

Islam never had a period of enlightment, did you know that? It is exactly the same as 1400 years ago, based on a tribal society.

Try to live in an islamic country, I wish you good luck with that.

[latraviata]

There is constant violence and cruelty in my country as well (the U.S.). Peaceful little Norway had a massacre last summer committed by an individual who hated Islam. There is absolutely no way you can construe Muslim nations as having a corner on the violence, cruelty, and hatred market.

That was absolutely dreadful and shocking, but in no comparison with the daily violence in practically all islamic countries, that is a gross denial of the victims.

[latraviata]

latraviata wrote (OK, so I'm paraphrasing a little):

"My argument is right because I say it is. Your argument is wrong because I say it is. You don't get it! I'm right! I'm always right! I'm not hateful (because I say I'm not, despite providing evidence to the contrary in just about everything I say), I'm just resentful and that's different. Huff."

Yes, that is about it.

[Guest Anonymous]

I'll take that as an admission of trollishness. Bye then.

ETA: I've added my first person to the foe list. That's like a rite of passage, right?

[latraviata]

I'll take that as an admission of trollishness. Bye then.

Beye

[keeperrox]

I am a developmental psychologist, I have seen and treated cases you can only dream about.

Read my postings carefully and you will find out that the base my resentment towards religions is the intolerance, cruelty, bias and discrimination.

And there it is. I was wondering when you'd trot that out. Again. Because that has everything to do with the discussion of the growth of female Muslim athletes. :roll:

[Patsy]

+1

I think someone like latriviata would have a heart attack if she had to sit in on a discussion regarding gender and sexual orientation in children, or adolescent sexuality in some classes I've take at Uni. Among the most progressive students voicing their opinion were women who covered. One of them even discussed her experience as a Muslim woman who covers and chooses to live with her fiancee before marriage.

See, I was about to respond "No, she is way more smarter and experienceder than you could ever know", and then she did it for me.

[Sunnichick31]

Perhaps it is important to learn more about the European situation which is entirely different than in the traditional immigration countries, such as USA, Canada and Australia.

The ban of the veil in France is only in public schools.

All the arguments, different flavours of islam, wrong translation of the quran, not the religion but culture, we have heard it all. The fact remains, there is constant violence and cruelty in the islamic countries.

It is very easy to call me a hating bigot which I am not. It is the bigotry and hatred in religions including islam that I strongly resent.

If you think I am a bigot, well so be it.

You know what guys, there is constant violence in Mexico with the drug cartels. Mexico is a Catholic country, so I'm going to declare ALL Catholics as violent people. That's OK, right?? :roll: (end sarcasm)

Seriously, you cannot judge an entire religion based on some bad seeds. In case you hadn't noticed, violence, misogeny, and general stupidity don't care about race or religion.

[CanadianHippie]

Fine.

My bubble is not as little as you like it to be. Did you live in islamic countries? Well I did.

As a court expert witness I stood up for battered muslim women, did you??

As far as fundamentalist muslims are concerned. Islam is a fundamentalist religion, the QUran is the undisputed word of god, very rigid and certainly not free for interpretation.

Islam never had a period of enlightment, did you know that? It is exactly the same as 1400 years ago, based on a tribal society.

Try to live in an islamic country, I wish you good luck with that.

And I live in an area with a very high Muslim population and I've seen them speak out against domestic violence, homophobia, anti-antisemitism, racism, and fundamentalism. I've seen the Muslim community work harder than the Christians, or any other religious group, to end these things in this country of mine.

Here's the think, you ask any bible believing Christian they will likely tell you the Bible is the undisputed word of God and not up for interpretation. But they all interpret it differently. Just like every Muslim interprets the Quran differently. There is no way that 1.6 billion people can come to the exact same conclusions or have exactly the same beliefs. It is not humanly possible; no matter how much you may want to believe it.

[mockingbird]

Fine.

My bubble is not as little as you like it to be. Did you live in islamic countries? Well I did.

As a court expert witness I stood up for battered muslim women, did you??

As far as fundamentalist muslims are concerned. Islam is a fundamentalist religion, the QUran is the undisputed word of god, very rigid and certainly not free for interpretation.

Islam never had a period of enlightment, did you know that? It is exactly the same as 1400 years ago, based on a tribal society.

Try to live in an islamic country, I wish you good luck with that.

Yeah, no. The Islamic period of enlightenment AKA the Islamic Golden Age preceded the western Enlightenment. Much of Western Enlightenment thought is based on previous Islamic scholarship. Algebra, The 1001 Nights, architecture, etc. They also preserved and translated Greek and Roman texts which would have otherwise been lost.

[Sunnichick31]

Yeah, no. The Islamic period of enlightenment AKA the Islamic Golden Age preceded the western Enlightenment. Much of Western Enlightenment thought is based on previous Islamic scholarship. Algebra, The 1001 Nights, architecture, etc. They also preserved and translated Greek and Roman texts which would have otherwise been lost.

Muslims also played a huge part in medical research. They were even attempting cataract surgery. if you ask me, you have to be pretty damn enlightened to be doing eye surgery.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicine_i ... amic_world (yea, i know Wiki isn't the best source, but i'm tired and don't feel like finding a better one.)

[Patsy]

Yeah, no. The Islamic period of enlightenment AKA the Islamic Golden Age preceded the western Enlightenment. Much of Western Enlightenment thought is based on previous Islamic scholarship. Algebra, The 1001 Nights, architecture, etc. They also preserved and translated Greek and Roman texts which would have otherwise been lost.

Thank you, mockingbird, I missed the bolded. Algebra and development of the number '0' are hardly what I would call unenlightening theories.

L, by acknowledging that a religion can have a period of enlightenment, you are acknowledging that religions are not only their original religious texts but the summation of parts, including holy texts, cultural practices attributed to religious belief (whether or not they actually originated solely from the belief), and different threads of interpretation throughout history. You are acknowledging that what we call "Islam" can, in fact, change. I don't see how you can say that and insist that there is violence inherent to the religion, or that ALL Muslims hate Jews, or that any expression of Islam other than the ultra-fundamentalist hatred that you are talking about (and that we ALL disagree with) is "fake" Islam, putting itself forward as a pretense of friendliness when in fact they all base their lives on hateful words.

I AGREE with you that there is a lot of shit going on in Muslim countries that does not receive enough criticism. I AGREE with you that the Koran has some stupid stuff in it. I am not rolling my eyes at what you say because I am a political correct liberal who considers Islam precious and inviolate, I am rolling my eyes at what you say because some of it is really, really stupid and worthy of ridicule.

[latraviata]

Very interesting read:

http://www.apostatesofislam.com/index.htm

In this paragraph appears what I am trying to say

What is our goal?

I question islam and I am not running around hating muslims.

Unfortunately the discussion evolved to the point that I am considered to be a stupid bigot.

If you find me a stupid bigot, well so be it.

On the scientific contribution to science:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages ... -Islam.htm

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Science/index.htm

Maybe the Enlightenment concept is not entirely clear to some of our valued FJers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment

http://www.theatheistconservative.com/2 ... ghtenment/

[CanadianHippie]

You're not questioning anything, you've made up your mind and you want everyone else to share your hatred. You are unwilling to accept anything that contradicts what you've already decided.

[latraviata]

You're not questioning anything, you've made up your mind and you want everyone else to share your hatred. You are unwilling to accept anything that contradicts what you've already decided.

So are you, perhaps you should read my postings and articles more carefully, but you already made up your mind, the bigotry/hatred bug is infecting you and clouds your view.

A very suprising column of one of Holland's most prominent islam apologetic politicians/columnists regarding the headscarf during the Olympics. I have tried to translate it into English, feel free to check and correct if necessary

In short, there is nothing to celebrate. The headscarf during the Olympics is a negative trend, it is haggling with Western values ​​because with a bit of discrimination against women set the door open for more. Look for inspiration to Islamic countries. Now all the women are set back a little behind because a woman with a headscarf on JUDOMAT appears. Who does not see!

[latraviata]

You're not questioning anything, you've made up your mind and you want everyone else to share your hatred. You are unwilling to accept anything that contradicts what you've already decided.

Semantics,that is that your argument?

I never call people names, but I think you are a vindictive cow.

Your lack of knowledge of Europe is painfully obvious. If it is any consolation, you are not the only one here.

The composition and social backround of the non-Western community in relation to western immigrants and the native population is so very different than in the USA and Canada who originally always been countries of emigration to begin with.

But I suspect that you do not care so I'll spare you the information about the matter.

Because you have decided that I am a hating bigot.