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samurai_sarah

The Boyer Sisters, Part 3

572 posts in this topic

Did I misinterpret what you said, or are you really planning to write a history book series about all time periods and places? All by yourself? 

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28 minutes ago, AlwaysExcited said:

Did I misinterpret what you said, or are you really planning to write a history book series about all time periods and places? All by yourself? 

Definitely a misinterpretation. I do plan to write an overview of world history but that will be a collaboration with other historians. I also understand that it will be a generalized work and not be able to be all-encompassing.

My plan to highlight the stories of ordinary people would be a series of books or short stories that pick and focus on a particular time and place and tell a single story.

I have already begun to write historical fiction short stories, and when I am a little further down the road and have honed my craft, I will try to get published.

My historical study has been, and will be Eurocentric. That is what fascinates me.

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10 hours ago, Destiny said:

I also read the entire encyclopaedia, and if you didn't see how whitewashed and gender biased that history was, then I don't really know what else to say.

Did we all read the encyclopedias growing up?! :laughing-jumpingpurple: My parents had bought the 1980 ones. 

1 hour ago, Gabe said:

If by whitewashed you refer to the fact that white people account for the majority of people represented as important in some way to our history. And gender biased because men are overwhelmingly in the majority as well. I am happy to agree with you.

Oh my. The problem isn't that white people did all the important stuff, but that the non-white,non-male people who did important stuff have often been forgotten to history. If you think white men did All The Things, you need to go educate yourself. 

It is interesting who history deems important. Columbus by all accounts was a monster who sold children as sex slaves and should be remembered as the father of the transatlantic slave trade, yet he is glorified in history. Bartolome de las Casas was the man who should be remembered for spending his life and wealth to stop the monster that is Christopher Columbus, yet he is barely a blip on the historical radar. 

Robert Smalls, a slave in SC during the Civil War commandeered a Confederate ship and managed to get through several Confederate check points. After he got to freedom he then was instrumental in helping the Union start accepting black people as soldiers. He fought in the war and became the highest paid black soldier because of how good he was as a captain. After the war he went back to the state that enslaved him and served on the state assembly, the senate and the house of representatives! He was instrumental in creating the public school system in SC. 

Then there are the black women who worked for NASA and played an important role in the space program. Until very, very recently they were pretty much completely forgotten.

Gabe, have you heard of the black woman who fought for voting rights for black people? She was the one who brought the civil rights fight in her state to the attention of the nation. At one point white men police officers held her down and almost beat her to death using an instrument called a blackjack. Did she let that stop her? Hell no! She got back up and kept on fighting! Did she make your history education? If not, why do you think that is so? 

If you think white men did it all, then no way in hell do you need to be writing a history course. 

 

Edited by formergothardite
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9 hours ago, ViolaSebastian said:

My parents had an old dictionary with a color insert that had illustrations of various kinds of ships. I was fascinated with it as a child, so I now consider myself to be a chief officer. Ahoy, matey.

Heh, well, we do have "Captain Brett" Smith, who gave himself that title as he went on a yachting holiday, and considers himself a captain of men...  Funnily enough, he writes his own homeschool curriculum too...

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24 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

Did we all read the encyclopedias growing up?! :laughing-jumpingpurple: My parents had bought the 1980 ones. 

Oh my. The problem isn't that white people did all the important stuff, but that the non-white,non-male people who did important stuff have often been forgotten to history. If you think white men did All The Things, you need to go educate yourself. 

It is interesting who history deems important. Columbus by all accounts was a monster who sold children as sex slaves and should be remembered as the father of the transatlantic slave trade, yet he is glorified in history. Bartolome de las Casas was the man who should be remembered for spending his life and wealth to stop the monster that is Christopher Columbus, yet he is barely a blip on the historical radar. 

Robert Smalls, a slave in SC during the Civil War commandeered a Confederate ship and managed to get through several Confederate check points. After he got to freedom he then was instrumental in helping the Union start accepting black people as soldiers. He fought in the war and became the highest paid black soldier because of how good he was as a captain. After the war he went back to the state that enslaved him and served on the state assembly, the senate and the house of representatives! He was instrumental in creating the public school system in SC. 

Then there are the black women who worked for NASA and played an important role in the space program. Until very, very recently they were pretty much completely forgotten.

If you think white men did it all, then no way in hell do you need to be writing a history course. 

 

I totally agree. I want to add that an Eurocentric history book will just be a drop in the bucket of Eurocentric history books. But I would recommend Gabe stick with that topic since he probably knows nothing of non Eurocentric history. 

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 My favorite history book is A Disability History of the United States by Kim Neilson. Excellent, informative, well-written history of an almost universally overlooked group.

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1 hour ago, Gabe said:

Definitely a misinterpretation. I do plan to write an overview of world history but that will be a collaboration with other historians. I also understand that it will be a generalized work and not be able to be all-encompassing.

My plan to highlight the stories of ordinary people would be a series of books or short stories that pick and focus on a particular time and place and tell a single story.

I have already begun to write historical fiction short stories, and when I am a little further down the road and have honed my craft, I will try to get published.

My historical study has been, and will be Eurocentric. That is what fascinates me.

Good. I got scared. :pb_lol:

But I still have questions. 

1. What languages do you know and how well? I assume, your Latin is great, of course, but even Eurocentric works require a lot more.
2. You say "other historians", so you consider yourself a historian - why? Do you have a degree? Finished and published academic works? 
3. Good for you for writing historical fiction, but how is that gonna help you with academic work? 


I have a lot more to ask, but no time, so let's stop at this. 
And I actually see no problem with Eurocentric works. If that's what interest you, then do you. But it's important not to forget that white Europeans never lived in vacuum. 

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I wrote up a long reply but my phone lost when I hit submit (gotta love technology.) :(

TLDR version, I am very interested in people you think are underrepresented in history books I don't care what color or gender they are as long as they contributed in a positive way. (It's easy enough to find villains) I want my work to be well rounded and to get that you sometimes have to talk to people with very opposite views. (One of the reasons I bother coming here)

I am studying German at the moment. I took three courses of Spanish when I was high school age, I am currently an amateur historian as it isn't my bread and butter and I am still a student. (I am in my early 20s and these are long term goals)

I took Ancient Greek and Latin as well.

Edited by Gabe
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In case anyone is interested, including Gabe -- even especially Gabe! -- "Stuff You Missed in History Class" is an excellent place to start when wanting to learn about those in history who have been overlooked, forgotten, or ignored. 

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On what period of European history would you  like to focus on? 

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1 hour ago, formergothardite said:

Bartolome de las Casas was the man who should be remembered for spending his life and wealth to stop the monster that is Christopher Columbus, yet he is barely a blip on the historical radar.

I had never heard of him. The boy wrote a report about him for history a couple of months ago. I think I need to read it now.

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1 hour ago, Gabe said:

Definitely a misinterpretation. I do plan to write an overview of world history but that will be a collaboration with other historians. I also understand that it will be a generalized work and not be able to be all-encompassing.

My plan to highlight the stories of ordinary people would be a series of books or short stories that pick and focus on a particular time and place and tell a single story.

I have already begun to write historical fiction short stories, and when I am a little further down the road and have honed my craft, I will try to get published.

My historical study has been, and will be Eurocentric. That is what fascinates me.

So you want to write a Eurocentric history of the world? Groundbreaking. 

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I never claimed it would be groundbreaking. Just a different emphasis. I grew up reading about kings and noblemen, about battles and politics. I rarely encountered history that focused on ordinary people, what they believed, how they lived etc... It was the clothing research when I became interested in living history that opened up a world of wonderful detail that I missed in the vague overviews. I love analysing cycles and moods of history and the progression and regression of ideas. But I also love the details, the life of peasant in Romania or the tailor in a Dutch city during the religious wars of the 16th/17th centuries. Hopefully I can contribute my own 2 cents to the rich cultural and historical literature of the world.

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My current research project is a certain sergeant major Patricks in the 60th regiment of foot during the French and Indian war. He appears in 3 communications between general Amherst and Colonel Bouquet. He was denied promotion to the rank of ensign because he was too valuable to the army as a tailor. I am trying to track down information about his history prior to 1759. 

42 minutes ago, Ms Jess said:

In case anyone is interested, including Gabe -- even especially Gabe! -- "Stuff You Missed in History Class" is an excellent place to start when wanting to learn about those in history who have been overlooked, forgotten, or ignored. 

I have listened to a bunch of their podcasts. Brigid introduced me to them.

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It's called social history. It's been around since the 1960s. But it isn't what the encyclopedia covers, so I guess you missed it. 

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@Gabe, do you really think it isn't whitewashing because in your mind white men did most of the important things in history?

Also, how do you plan to go about the actual teaching of history. Writing and having students repeat facts(like doing a book report or fill in the blank test questions) is a terrible way to teach history. Do you plan to teach rote memorization and just repeating back facts or do you plan on teaching a critical thinking approach to history? Have you thought about more than just writing history course and instead on how this course will actually teach history? 

 

 

 

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But how fiction writing is going to help you with your goals in history?

And, what do you mean when you say "contributed in positive way"? And "villain"? And if you think a group of people didn't "contribute in positive way" or didn't contribute at all, would you ignore them in your work? And, if so, how's that well-rounded and (relatively) objective work? 

Do you think history must teach morals? 


I'm sorry, you must feel like in interrogation between all these posts and questions. 

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Back to Columbus, he contributed in a terrible way, but would it be wise to leave him out of history? Instead of ignoring people like him, wouldn't it be wiser to teach exactly what he did along with teaching about the people who fought against the evil people in the world?

Also, IMO, if approaching history through the eyes of the normal people, it should also include all the normal folks who ignored the bad stuff going around them because it was convenient. People always like to think they would be the person standing up against Hitler, but just look at Trump and his supporters. He has always maintained he would make Muslims register and yet tons of normal people have supported him while ignoring that he wants to do something like that. All through history regular people have found excuses to turn a blind eye to terrible things and that is something that shouldn't be forgotten. 

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1 hour ago, formergothardite said:

@GabeAlso, how do you plan to go about the actual teaching of history. Writing and having students repeat facts(like doing a book report or fill in the blank test questions) is a terrible way to teach history.

On the contrary, writing book reports and critically evaluating what you read is an incredibly good way to teach history. I think you will find the answering of multiple choice questions is the reality of standardized tests and public education. It certainly didn't factor into my education and won't be the method used on my children.

Quote

 

Do you plan to teach rote memorization and just repeating back facts or do you plan on teaching a critical thinking approach to history? Have you thought about more than just writing history course and instead on how this course will actually teach history? 

Critical thinking all the way. And... Of course. One of my motivations for writing about history is to make more of the fascinating material I found through extra research accessible to history buffs who don't have the time or discipline to delve into primary source material.

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52 minutes ago, AlwaysExcited said:

But how fiction writing is going to help you with your goals in history?

Because if done well, it can make actual history more accessible to young people and non-scholars

52 minutes ago, AlwaysExcited said:

And, what do you mean when you say "contributed in positive way"? And "villain"? And if you think a group of people didn't "contribute in positive way" or didn't contribute at all, would you ignore them in your work? And, if so, how's that well-rounded and (relatively) objective work? 

I don't plan to ignore people who contributed in a negative way. I just am not looking for negative suggestions from FJ members. It would be a pretty sparse work of history if I tried to use FJ recommendarions as my exclusive source.

52 minutes ago, AlwaysExcited said:

Do you think history must teach morals? 

I think moral implications are inescapable when discussing human action past present or future. 

52 minutes ago, AlwaysExcited said:

I'm sorry, you must feel like in interrogation between all these posts and questions. 

I don't mind honest, decent questions. I am a little wary of trick questions and gotcha moments that precede a written plastering if answered.

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3 minutes ago, Gabe said:

I think moral implications are inescapable when discussing human action past present or future. 

The question here is, whose morals will be the yardstick? Yours?

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13 minutes ago, Gabe said:

<snip for brevity>

I don't mind honest, decent questions. I am a little wary of trick questions and gotcha moments that precede a written plastering if answered.

No one is asking gotcha questions. And as has always been, you are free to refrain from answering any of them. 

You are getting follow-up questions where clarity is requested; however, this happens to everyone who makes a statement that isn't readily clear to other readers.

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2 hours ago, Gabe said:

I never claimed it would be groundbreaking. Just a different emphasis. I grew up reading about kings and noblemen, about battles and politics. I rarely encountered history that focused on ordinary people, what they believed, how they lived etc... It was the clothing research when I became interested in living history that opened up a world of wonderful detail that I missed in the vague overviews. I love analysing cycles and moods of history and the progression and regression of ideas. But I also love the details, the life of peasant in Romania or the tailor in a Dutch city during the religious wars of the 16th/17th centuries. Hopefully I can contribute my own 2 cents to the rich cultural and historical literature of the world.

Well, they say history is written by the victors. So the kings and noblemen will always have more to say, but the real stories will lie in the tales of those who serve them.

The entire history of sumptuary laws of the Middle Ages ought to keep you busy. Only kings and their ilk could wear purple and ermine, lesser nobles could wear fox and miniver.. colors, dyes, fabrics allowed to some were kept from others. All in the name of keeping people in their place. Not only IN their place, but to make their place known immediately to those around them. 

White European men have a lot to answer for. 

Of course, I am a white female, and I consider the world's history to be my history. While I didn't sit in at the Woolworth diner counter, I have been affected and improved by those who did. While I didn't sit on the bus with Ms. Parks, I have been affected and improved by her actions. While I did not participate in the achievements of those women, black women, who helped the early astronauts into space, I am proud of them and applaud their achievements. I likewise consider Eleanor of Aquitaine a personal hero. Ditto Florence Nightingale, who wrote the first book on nursing. There are STILL Nightingale schools of nursing extant in the USA. Juliette Gordon Lowe provided opportunities and support for GIRLS to have fun doing the same activities that boys love so much, and the Scouting movement has enriched my life. Bold, intelligent women participated in writing  history too.

 

ALL of history, even that which didn't happen from our direct relatives or ancestors, Is OUR history. We have to know it, own it, live within its parameters, and with its consequences. 

 

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1 hour ago, formergothardite said:

do you really think it isn't whitewashing because in your mind white men did most of the important things in history?

you ignored this question and it wasn't a "gotcha" question.  I was actually shocked that you seemed to think white men did most of the important stuff in history. I just want to clarify because history is filled with non-men, non-white people who did amazing things. Some of these people will never be known because they were whitewashed right out of history. Some are just now being recognized because many people are realizing that our history is whitewashed. 

31 minutes ago, Gabe said:

It would be a pretty sparse work of history if I tried to use FJ recommendarions as my exclusive source.

:laughing-jumpingpurple: Really? I've learned about so many obscure people in history by reading at FJ. 

Have you read Lies My Teacher Told Me? If not you probably should before trying to write any sort of a curriculum to teach history. It has a good bit in it about how to write a history curriculum that teaches children and also gets them interested in history. One of the downfalls in teaching history is that historical figures are often made into good guys and bad guys when the truth is that they are typically both good and bad guys. 

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12 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

you ignored this question and it wasn't a "gotcha" question.

2 hours ago, formergothardite said:

@Gabe, do you really think it isn't whitewashing because in your mind white men did most of the important things in history?

 

I ignored it because I never thought of or think of history in the context of the melanin count of their skin.

It's insulting and racist to continually frame history along racial lines and I am sick of it. I agree with Morgan Freeman on this topic. One of the best ways to combat racism is to stop talking about the color of people's skin and instead judge them based on their actions and what they contribute to society.

History isn't white or black or Asian or brown it's history. So do your bit and point me in the direction of good material that you think is underserved if you want to do something positive instead of whining about whitewashing.

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