New Low in Parenting Trends: Free Range Kids

[Conuly]

In order for there to be a crime, doesn't there have to be intent? Accidents happen.

Fake internet lawyer response:

No, intent is not necessary. That's why we have things like "criminal neglect" at all. However, the fact that criminal neglect is a valid legal concept does not mean that all accidents are actually crimes.

Quite honestly, I think if we eliminated the shame of this and the "Oh, this only happens to BAD parents" attitudes then it wouldn't be too hard to invent some sort of carseat alarm that pings if you open the door and there's a little person still buckled in. And that would solve all our problems right there. But it's not going to be a big seller so long as people think it can't happen to them. (And while this sort of death is not epidemic, my rule of thumb is that if it's not terribly expensive or intrusive into your life, it's reasonable to make your life a little safer. Not allowing the nieces to play outside with all the other children would cost more to us than it's worth in terms of safety. Having a carseat alarm for a car with a baby probably doesn't.)

[tropaka]

I thought I posted earlier but it got thrown into the ether. The woman who writes the blog also now has a tv show called "Bubble Wrap Kids" which airs in the US and Canada.

I have a nephew, now 22, who never learned to ride a bike (he might get hurt, he might get hit by a car), and just now is completing his driving license. His mother, my sil, picks him up after his part time job at 9:15 pm. He is a university student, and 6 ft 7. Oh, and his job is about a 10 min walk from their home.

My sons have been taking transit across the city where I live since they were 10 and 13 respectively (one line) for visitation with their Dad. No big deal. However, my 13 yr old can make himself a simple meal (grilled cheese or scrambled eggs etc) but my 15 yr old would start a fire.

There are spots in Europe where people leave their kids outside of shops in strollers while they get their purchases. It's the kid, location, etc.

It's situational.

[FloraDoraDolly]

I like some of what the Free Range parents advocate. I've witnessed numerous examples of helicopter/attachment parenting gone haywire, so it's refreshing to encounter parents who actually let their kids run around and play without Mommy hovering over them every single minute. But letting a 9-year-old ride the subway alone in NYC? That's going too far in the other direction.

[kb2]

Quite honestly, I think if we eliminated the shame of this and the "Oh, this only happens to BAD parents" attitudes then it wouldn't be too hard to invent some sort of carseat alarm that pings if you open the door and there's a little person still buckled in. And that would solve all our problems right there. But it's not going to be a big seller so long as people think it can't happen to them. (And while this sort of death is not epidemic, my rule of thumb is that if it's not terribly expensive or intrusive into your life, it's reasonable to make your life a little safer. Not allowing the nieces to play outside with all the other children would cost more to us than it's worth in terms of safety. Having a carseat alarm for a car with a baby probably doesn't.)

From the Washington Post article (to agree with you):

For years, Fennell has been lobbying for a law requiring back-seat sensors in new cars, sensors that would sound an alarm if a child's weight remained in the seat after the ignition is turned off. Last year, she almost succeeded. The 2008 Cameron Gulbransen Kids' Transportation Safety Act -- which requires safety improvements in power windows and in rear visibility, and protections against a child accidentally setting a car in motion -- originally had a rear seat-sensor requirement, too. It never made the final bill; sponsors withdrew it, fearing they couldn't get it past a powerful auto manufacturers' lobby.

There are a few aftermarket products that alert a parent if a child remains in a car that has been turned off. These products are not huge sellers. They have likely run up against the same marketing problem that confronted three NASA engineers a few years ago.

In 2000, Chris Edwards, Terry Mack and Edward Modlin began to work on just such a product after one of their colleagues, Kevin Shelton, accidentally left his 9-month-old son to die in the parking lot of NASA Langley Research Center in Hampton, Va. The inventors patented a device with weight sensors and a keychain alarm. Based on aerospace technology, it was easy to use; it was relatively cheap, and it worked.

Janette Fennell had high hopes for this product: The dramatic narrative behind it, she felt, and the fact that it came from NASA, created a likelihood of widespread publicity and public acceptance.

That was five years ago. The device still isn't on the shelves. The inventors could not find a commercial partner willing to manufacture it. One big problem was liability. If you made it, you could face enormous lawsuits if it malfunctioned and a child died. But another big problem was psychological: Marketing studies suggested it wouldn't sell well.

The problem is this simple: People think this could never happen to them.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Well, Lenore's kid was 9, which is legal in NYC (the MTA rules say 8 years old to ride alone). From what I've heard, in Japan the six year olds get themselves to and from school as well, even on the train. And really, as I said at the time, within two years he'd be expected to take the train alone to get to and from school. School bus service stops in the 6th grade here...

There aren't school buses in Japan, except perhaps for a few private kindergartens. Most kids walk or bike to school (alone, or in groups of kids), but if a kid goes private, they take public transit along with all the rest of the citizens. Required education with a default "catchment area" type thing only goes up to age 15 (9 years of schooling - and yeah, you can legally have an adult job after that and plenty did in years past, though most kids now do go on for more school, 3 years of high school at least and then for many, university) so after that, most kids are not going to school right near their homes, they all take transit.

In fact there are school passes for the train and bus, you prove what school you go to (you have a document from the school) and you get a reduced fare on your pass from your house to your school. Kids riding transit is just a normal thing, no one thinks anything about it at all. For that matter, usually your workplace subsidizes your transit pass as an adult, because riding transit is just the NORMAL thing to do.

The fact is, people do things every day that are riskier than letting your kid play outside without you sitting there, or letting them go to school with a friend instead of with you. For one thing, they get into cars and drive around. That is THE leading cause of death among all Americans, especially children. But people don't think of it as particularly dangerous because they're used to it.

This too. Driving is incredibly risky, but people do it all the time. People are used to it, and they have the illusion of being in control.

But an 18 year old is more than capable of living a full independent life, working and paying rent. I did it. It was normal, no one thought I was particularly precocious or anything of the sort.

Anyway I live in the US now, but in my town, tons of kids walk and bike to school on their own from the neighborhood. There are crossing guards at the intersections closest to the schools, in fact it can be a bit weird the first day if I run into a new crossing guard while *I* am on my way walking to work, if there's kids there at the corner with the guard I will wait to be crossed with them so as not to give them the wrong idea :)

Thing is though, I live in an old walking-friendly neighborhood with grid streets. For kids living in a modern suburb, the physical environment is just completely different.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Something else, too - where I live, plenty of the high school students drive themselves to school, in their own cars. This is true of my city neighborhood, but even more true of rural schools. Kids turn 16, get their licenses, they're driving themselves, with all the danger that implies.

But somehow those same kids wouldn't be trusted to take a train? Just makes no sense to me.

[Conuly]

But letting a 9-year-old ride the subway alone in NYC? That's going too far in the other direction.

As somebody who has been taking the subway alone since the age of (just turned) 11, back in the bad old days when the crime rate wasn't at its present 1960s levels, I want to ask just this: Are you from New York?

Because while reasonable New Yorkers can disagree on this subject, I must say I get so tired of people who have never been to the city pontificating about what is and isn't safe to do here!

Thing is though, I live in an old walking-friendly neighborhood with grid streets. For kids living in a modern suburb, the physical environment is just completely different.

Indeed. One thing I think this nation is absolutely going to HAVE to do, and soon, is retrofit those suburbs to be walkable and with decent public transportation. The car culture can't last forever. (Did you know that children who are driven places are less able to map out their neighborhood than those who walk places?)

[FakePigtails]

As somebody who has been taking the subway alone since the age of (just turned) 11, back in the bad old days when the crime rate wasn't at its present 1960s levels, I want to ask just this: Are you from New York?

Because while reasonable New Yorkers can disagree on this subject, I must say I get so tired of people who have never been to the city pontificating about what is and isn't safe to do here!

I'm glad a New Yorker chimed in, because I've been there quite a bit but as a tourist and didn't see the big deal in taking a subway, especially mid-day, but didn't feel quite qualified to be the one to say something (until now, heh). There were always plenty of people around so it wasn't a good place for someone to try to cause trouble except for maybe pickpocketing. Plus in Lenore Skenazy's case she and her son were very familiar with the route he took that day so he knew exactly where he was going and how to get there. It wasn't like he started at a strange place.

[Sumeri]

Something else, too - where I live, plenty of the high school students drive themselves to school, in their own cars. This is true of my city neighborhood, but even more true of rural schools. Kids turn 16, get their licenses, they're driving themselves, with all the danger that implies.

But somehow those same kids wouldn't be trusted to take a train? Just makes no sense to me.

Agreed. I grew up in Chicago and attended magnet schools, so was taking public transport alone from around 5th grade or so - or walking to school (about two miles) from kindergarten on. I never drove until I was in my 30's - didn't even have a license until I moved rural.

My stepsons went with me on a trip home a few years ago. One was driving at 15, already had two fairly serious accidents...and his mother didn't want him to come visit the very Orthodox Jewish Chicago neighborhood where my brother still lives because "it's too dangerous!' What the fuck did she think could happen there? I really put them in danger by taking the el downtown with them. :roll:

[Conuly]

I'm glad a New Yorker chimed in, because I've been there quite a bit but as a tourist and didn't see the big deal in taking a subway, especially mid-day, but didn't feel quite qualified to be the one to say something (until now, heh). There were always plenty of people around so it wasn't a good place for someone to try to cause trouble except for maybe pickpocketing. Plus in Lenore Skenazy's case she and her son were very familiar with the route he took that day so he knew exactly where he was going and how to get there. It wasn't like he started at a strange place.

Well, I'm definitely on the more FRK side of things. There are absolutely some good points to be made about taking basic safety precautions on the train, and it's true that VERY RARELY stupid people (and some of them are teens, although this is a form of stupidity that doesn't seem to set in much earlier than that) find themselves on the tracks and often die... though when you compare the number of times that happens yearly with the number of rides the subway system sees daily, you can see that it takes a very special kind of stupidity to end up that way.

But no, while many New Yorkers DO think "nine is too early" (and while I wouldn't call the cops if I saw a nine year old alone on the train, I will say that I doubt I'd send any kid I knew on the train at that age either) my real complaint here is simply that I'm tired of people who aren't from NYC having opinions on how we should do things. They inevitably get their views of the city from movies set in the 70s and 80s. It's, um, not so much like that anymore!

[holothuroidea]

I've always referred to my babies as "free range" or "cage free" as a kind of a joke because we don't do cribs or playpens or anything, but our whole house is baby proofed to the extreme. Like, toilet paper goes on the top shelf. :lol:

I almost always advocate for a moderate approach, and I'm going to do so here, too. Letting your 5 year old play in a fenced in yard unattended is okay if you are within ear shot but don't go off to the bathroom, letting them play in a yard with no fence is not okay. Things like that.

The turning of the phone thing is kind of silly. How hard is it to say, "You don't need to ask me about things like that, you can decide for yourself now."

About kids in cars, I don't know about safety but I always hated it when my mom would ask me to stay in the car while she ran into a store. I always felt like she didn't want me around, it was kind of a bummer. I don't ever plan on doing that.

[ilovetchotchkes]

Agreed. I grew up in Chicago and attended magnet schools, so was taking public transport alone from around 5th grade or so - or walking to school (about two miles) from kindergarten on. I never drove until I was in my 30's - didn't even have a license until I moved rural.

My stepsons went with me on a trip home a few years ago. One was driving at 15, already had two fairly serious accidents...and his mother didn't want him to come visit the very Orthodox Jewish Chicago neighborhood where my brother still lives because "it's too dangerous!' What the fuck did she think could happen there? I really put them in danger by taking the el downtown with them. :roll:

i'm 30 and my mother is still convinced i will get murdered if i take the El ANYWHERE.

[emmiedahl]

I've always referred to my babies as "free range" or "cage free" as a kind of a joke because we don't do cribs or playpens or anything, but our whole house is baby proofed to the extreme. Like, toilet paper goes on the top shelf. :lol:

Yeah, I call mine "free range and cruelty free." Just like the eggs :D

[dirtyhippiegirl]

My mom used to make me walk up to the gas station -- probably a good four or five blocks away -- to buy her cigarettes when I was 5-6. And I'm only 26. She'd also leave us in the car to run into places from time to time. Windows down and childproof locks off. I was perfectly capable of getting out of the car if I felt hot/tired/bored(!) when I was five or six or seven.

/mom died of COPD a little over a week ago

//smoking is bad

///miss my mom 'tho

[holothuroidea]

My mom used to make me walk up to the gas station -- probably a good four or five blocks away -- to buy her cigarettes when I was 5-6. And I'm only 26. She'd also leave us in the car to run into places from time to time. Windows down and childproof locks off. I was perfectly capable of getting out of the car if I felt hot/tired/bored(!) when I was five or six or seven.

/mom died of COPD a little over a week ago

//smoking is bad

///miss my mom 'tho

My mom did the same thing but I was around 7. I would ride my bike. I am also 26.

Some things feel like neglect, and somethings feel like freedom. Being left in the car felt like neglect, but being able to ride my bike to the corner store felt like freedom.

I grew up in a very very small town (800 people), with zero traffic.

Also I am so very sorry for your loss. ((hug))

[Conuly]

My mom used to make me walk up to the gas station -- probably a good four or five blocks away -- to buy her cigarettes when I was 5-6. And I'm only 26. She'd also leave us in the car to run into places from time to time. Windows down and childproof locks off. I was perfectly capable of getting out of the car if I felt hot/tired/bored(!) when I was five or six or seven.

/mom died of COPD a little over a week ago

//smoking is bad

///miss my mom 'tho

*hugs*

Of course you do. I'm sorry for your loss.

[dirtyhippiegirl]

My mom did the same thing but I was around 7. I would ride my bike. I am also 26.

Some things feel like neglect, and somethings feel like freedom. Being left in the car felt like neglect, but being able to ride my bike to the corner store felt like freedom.

I grew up in a very very small town (800 people), with zero traffic.

Also I am so very sorry for your loss. ((hug))

And I lived in a large upscale suburb of Kansas City.

Definitely get what you're saying though. I have a very, very vivid memory of being left in the car while my mom ran into the grocery store. I had to pee and it was taking her forever to get back. So I'm what...probably six or seven? I get out of the car, walk across the parking lot, and go inside to use the bathroom in the grocery store. I actually got spanked when I came back because my mom was so upset that I'd left the car.

I mostly remember being very /bored/. Car-wise. But we otherwise had it pretty good because we were allowed to roam. Not necessarily freely -- my dad actually spray-painted a bunch of lines in our neighborhood that we were not allowed to cross at certain ages. But we were expected to police ourselves in that area.

Also, thank you. :)

[ShadowyOne]

I think that with this, as with many things, moderation is the key. First and foremost, I think that parents have to be aware of their particular situation, and their own kid's particular capabilities. Similarly to other posters' comments, I was a latchkey kid by age 9 or so, walking myself and my little brother (4 years my junior) several blocks, and crossing a pretty big intersection in the process, home from the school bus stop each day. My friends and I played outside unsupervised a lot, and had a couple-block radius in which we biked and roller-bladed. This was an urban but primarily residential (and "safe") neighborhood. I was an unaccompanied minor on airplanes to visit relatives by the time I was probably 10 or 12, and flew by myself to go to academic summer programs by the time I was in my early teens. My parents knew that I was a little overachiever who could be trusted to follow the rules. When I got accepted into my first-choice school, the University of Chicago, some people asked my parents how they could send their 17-year old daughter to live on Chicago's south side by herself.... my dad would just teasingly sing me the lyrics to "Leroy Brown" (Well, the south side of Chicago Is the baddest part of town. And if you go down there you better just beware of a man named Leroy Brown). They knew that I'd use my common sense to keep myself safe, as well as understanding that Hyde Park is not exactly your typical "bad South side" neighborhood.

When my kid is 9 (or whatever age), I'm not sure if I will be able to trust her to do these same things on her own. I'll have to use my judgement and assess the variables (if we still live in the same very urban (politely called "gentrifying") neighborhood, that may very well be a factor in not allowing her that much freedom, in addition to judging her own capabilities and/or trustworthiness). I think that kids absolutely need to be given responsibilities in order to learn responsibility (see Josh Duggar for an example of how not to do this), but of course we need to take all reasonable measures to keep them safe.

[Parkersmom120106]

When I was 13 years old, I sat in a closed up van, no air conditioning, in 100+ degree weather for half an hour, because I was mad at my mom and thought that doing so would some how punish her. I narrowly avoided heat stroke. Kids don't reason or make "common sense" choices like adults- that's why they're kids.

A couple years ago I was at a friend's house and we were getting ready to leave. She told her older son (8 or 9ish) to do something (I can't remember exactly what now) and then get in the car. Something delayed us in the house and after a little time had passed she wondered where the boy was. She went outside and found him sitting in the non-running car, windows up, sweating bullets, red as a beet and almost in tears. She opened the door and asked him what he was doing and he said "You told me to get in the car". He couldn't give us any reason why he didn't open the door or get out when he got hot.

As a child we sat in the car many a time while my parents ran into the store. Usually the car was running with the A/C on which made it less safe, but we lived lol. I don't think it's that big a deal to leave an older child in the car for a couple minutes, but far too often I see little kids left in the car and they've taken off their seatbelts and are jumping around and talking to people who walk by.

[Conuly]

I think that with this, as with many things, moderation is the key. First and foremost, I think that parents have to be aware of their particular situation, and their own kid's particular capabilities. Similarly to other posters' comments, I was a latchkey kid by age 9 or so, walking myself and my little brother (4 years my junior) several blocks, and crossing a pretty big intersection in the process, home from the school bus stop each day. My friends and I played outside unsupervised a lot, and had a couple-block radius in which we biked and roller-bladed. This was an urban but primarily residential (and "safe") neighborhood. I was an unaccompanied minor on airplanes to visit relatives by the time I was probably 10 or 12, and flew by myself to go to academic summer programs by the time I was in my early teens. My parents knew that I was a little overachiever who could be trusted to follow the rules. When I got accepted into my first-choice school, the University of Chicago, some people asked my parents how they could send their 17-year old daughter to live on Chicago's south side by herself.... my dad would just teasingly sing me the lyrics to "Leroy Brown" (Well, the south side of Chicago Is the baddest part of town. And if you go down there you better just beware of a man named Leroy Brown). They knew that I'd use my common sense to keep myself safe, as well as understanding that Hyde Park is not exactly your typical "bad South side" neighborhood.

When my kid is 9 (or whatever age), I'm not sure if I will be able to trust her to do these same things on her own. I'll have to use my judgement and assess the variables (if we still live in the same very urban (politely called "gentrifying") neighborhood, that may very well be a factor in not allowing her that much freedom, in addition to judging her own capabilities and/or trustworthiness). I think that kids absolutely need to be given responsibilities in order to learn responsibility (see Josh Duggar for an example of how not to do this), but of course we need to take all reasonable measures to keep them safe.

To be clear, most (or all, if you discount those who post just to be contrary) of us who comment over at FRK agree with "it depends on your own kid and your own situation". If your kid really can't handle this or that sort of freedom* then you don't let them do it, although if you can take babysteps to get them there that's all right. (Like, you don't just one day leave your kid home for six hours. You start off with ten minutes while you're in the garden, that sort of thing.) Or if there's some special situation (say, you know that there's an escaped murderer on the loose, or you happen to live in a warzone, or whatever the situation is) that makes your life more dangerous, well, nobody wants you ignoring your own best judgment.

* It's worth mentioning that "Free range" is often used to mean "unsupervised". Which is generally a big part of it, but I think it's really about self-sufficiency. Other issues that might come up are "I expect my kid to take off her own jacket, but every time she goes to preschool somebody does it for her, and robs her of her ability to take care of herself" or "My kid is learning how to use a real knife at the real stove at home, so it's really annoying that his school has given him the idea that he must never use anything sharp ever", that sort of thing. (The jacket thing happened to me in real life, but it was a smock at the children's museum. I wanted to yell at people "Stop helping her! It's not helping!")

In my own life, I had to unbrainwash the nieces after they learned about "strangers" at school. To wit, they were taught to never, ever talk to strangers and, if they should get lost, to find a policeman to help them. *headdesk*

In reality, we don't care a damn whether they talk to strangers so long as they don't walk off with them, and in some situations (like if they get lost!) we WANT them to talk to strangers, if only to ask said stranger to call the nearest family member! As far as "finding a policeman" goes, if I should get separated from either child on the train or wherever, the very LAST thing I want her to do is wander hither and yon looking for a cop. It took two months to re-teach them that the appropriate thing to do, when lost, is make sure you're in a safe spot (move out of the street, dears!) and then wait until whomever you're with comes back to fetch you. Sure they can talk to the cops (who are perforce strangers) but they shouldn't go looking for a cop to talk to. "But I can't wait by myself!" Because something bad is going to happen if you stand still for five minutes until I return? "But the teacher said...!"

Two. Months. :roll: If they're walking around the place, how the hell am I ever going to find them? I have a hard enough time navigating as it is!

[emmiedahl]

When I was young, it was pretty normal to leave your kids in the car while you ran in somewhere for a few minutes. Especially if it was running, so there was AC or heat.

So my friend's mother left her four children in the car while she went in to a store to get milk. Just one thing. And the kids climbed in the front and were pretending to drive. They somehow took the car out of park, and it rolled to the bottom of the hill. The baby was in a carrier that was not secured to the seat, so it fell onto the floor of the car. Her mom came out of the store and her car was gone but she could hear the baby screaming. I am sure it was horrible, and thank the heavens no one was hurt.

This shit used to happen a lot. Every kid I know with somewhat laissez faire parents has a story like this, maybe not in the car but something dangerous. I am sure most of us survived, but these things definitely come to my mind when I am making decisions about how much supervision my children need.

[snarkbillie]

I was a latchkey kid at 10. I walked home from the bus by myself and stayed home alone for 4-5 hours waiting for my parents to get home from work. I was fine.

My own kid is about the same age, but I would never leave her home alone. It's not because I don't think she could handle it. It's because she has a little sibling and I would never want to put the responsibility on her for her sibling. What if her sibling had a seizure or got hit by a car on the way home or broke their arm? Would my kid know what to do? Yeah. Do I want her to be in that situation where she's the responsible "adult" at age 9-10, hell no!

I'm not a helicopter mom at all, but my kid is a kid. There are some things you shouldn't tempt, like tragedy.

[Conuly]

What if her sibling had a seizure or got hit by a car on the way home or broke their arm? Would my kid know what to do?

Are your children prone to seizures?

Quite aside from that, what if YOU had a seizure, or got hit by a car, or otherwise became incapacitated? You can't prevent these things from happening just by being there.

[holothuroidea]

This shit used to happen a lot. Every kid I know with somewhat laissez faire parents has a story like this, maybe not in the car but something dangerous. I am sure most of us survived, but these things definitely come to my mind when I am making decisions about how much supervision my children need.

AH!! This happened to me. I was messing around in the car and it was a manual transmission and parked on a hill, I put it in neutral and let down the emergency brake (like I'd seen my mom do a zillion times). This hill led right down into a lake. ZOOOM I went. I discovered the brake pedal just in time to avoid meeting fishes.

I some times wonder if it's a rural small-town thing. Nobody my age around here (New Jersey) has stories like that.

Edited 3 times because homophones are apparently my worst enemy tonight. (Break, Lead, Petal)

[snarkbillie]

Are your children prone to seizures?

Quite aside from that, what if YOU had a seizure, or got hit by a car, or otherwise became incapacitated? You can't prevent these things from happening just by being there.

My youngest has a seizure disorder. You're right that anything could happen, but I don't think I should be creating more opportunities for them to happen while my kid is "in charge".

I could get hit by a car, yeah. It would be terrible. My kid would have to do something. I get it. I think it's different than expecting her to be responsible for her sister at age 9-10. My kid is a kid, she can do kid size tasks. She can make her own lunch and she can take the trash out and she can walk the dog. She doesn't need to be responsible for a child, because she is a child.