Of Beer and Babies

[fluttershies]

Also the pic could be referring to many nursing mothers finding drinking beer helpful while lactating.

[TXDuck]

I assure you I'm not "hyperventilating" but the OP is talking about a baby. Even a tiny amount of alcohol can cause poisoning in an infant or toddler. And there are drinking age laws because teenagers do not have the developmental maturity to make responsible decisions about drinking, and because until age 18, they're parents are still legally responsible for them.

Who said giving babies alcohol was ok? Also, if they are legally adults at 18, why is the drinking age 21? Again, I'm not advocating binge drink (for anyone). But wine with the family dinner? Champagne at weddings? Yeah, perfectly ok for teenagers (disclaimer for whatever reasons that might make it a bad idea.)

[pixydust]

My crack at underage drinking was aimed at the average high school student. I teach high school and I'm not so naive to think that kids don't drink. The scary thing about that is the statistics on high school binge drinkers--the numbers are astronomical. So, do I think that underage drinking is a good thing? No. But do I know that it happens? Sure. Do I think that, in my own experience, some high school drinking might have curbed my college craziness? Yes.

I think that the "oh no! Booze!" attitude in the US ads to the binge drinking of teens. It's taboo and only for adults, so they want to do it, but no one is teaching them how to do it responsibly. All 3 kids see my hubby and I drink. We drink wine with dinner quite a lot, and the kids know it. They hear me say that I had a stressful day and want a glass of wine. Hell, my 6 year old can pick out what we like at the store! They know that we never drink and drive (we are pretty extreme on it as an example to the kids) and they understand that children don't drink because their brains aren't developed yet. It's a non-issue in my house. I don't lock up the liqueur or anything like that and I won't give it to my kids (when they are teens, and the age will depend on maturity, that will be different). Hopefully my kids will grow up with a healthy attitude towards alcohol, and I would rather them drink with me as teens than with a 20 something creep like I did!

[Elle]

I started having champagne at special events at 12, wine with dinner around 15-16. Drinking laws in the US are arbitrary and let's face, stupid. I'm not saying just start passing out 6 packs to high schoolers. But we do need to stop hyperventilating every time someone mentions "underage drinking".

If an 18-year-old can sign up to carry arms on the front line in a war and possibly die, then it's crazy that someone who is older can be jailed for drinking at home for being 20 instead of 21. The decision to drink is a minor decision compared to signing your life over to Uncle Sam.

[Elle]

I have allowed my son to drink since he was about 3 or 4 years old. But it is legal in tennessee.

Our daughter is just a little younger, and she wanted her daddy's beer! He doesn't drink often, but every now and then. Anyway this one day she wouldn't take no for an answer and threw a fit. So I told him to give her a sip and she wouldn't want it anymore. Sure enough, she looked at us like why the hell we let her have something nasty. Held the bottle toward her, and she shook her head. Next time he had one, a few weeks later, he held it to her, and she shook her head. He had a beer a few nights ago, a couple months after the last, and once again, she shook her head. Rather than making her think it's a wonderful drink we're hoarding for ourselves. we let her see it's something she doesn't like, so she doesn't want it anymore. It's what my parents did with me. I rarely drink even a sip of beer now.

[Elle]

I did make responsible decisions about drinking when I was a teenager, both while I was under 18 and between 18-21. Other people made irresponsible decisions about drinking while teenagers/<21. But the laws didn't exactly prevent decisions from having to be made.

And plenty of people over 21 make stupid decisions. Most people with multiple DUIs are over 21, and are still doing it. There is no magic age under which everyone will be stupid one day and the day of will make mature decisions all the time.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I think that the "oh no! Booze!" attitude in the US ads to the binge drinking of teens. It's taboo and only for adults, so they want to do it, but no one is teaching them how to do it responsibly.

I think that's part of it, and the other big part is the enforced scarcity that results. In my experience, people drink more responsibly when the booze is unlimited. Why? You have one, consumed at a normal pace, you get a bit of a buzz, and you then can DECIDE, do I want another right now? Or am I good for now? Because you know that if you decide you do want another one after a while, it will be there for you, so there's no need to hurry.

Contrast that with kids who have access to booze for a short time, because someone older bought a six pack at the store, or they're "pregaming" at some house party because they can't drink in the bar later. What happens? Everyone wants to make sure they "drink enough to last" and "doesn't end up not getting their fair share" so they pound it. This is a big issue in my town, where for really stupid reasons the bar entry age is 19 (so you can get IN, at 19) but the drinking age is 21 (if they catch you actually consuming alcohol in the bar, it's an arrest). So there's plenty of kids who want to go with their older friends to the bars on a Friday night, but they can't drink in there, so they pound booze at home before going out (and yet plenty of them DO sneak drinks in the bar and get arrested, leading to $$$ for the city...)

I was able to buy beer from vending machines on the street when I was in high school (in Japan). The official drinking age was 20 (the age of adulthood - it's the same year, and it's 20 for voting, smoking, drinking, whatever) but at the time it wasn't enforced, really. I did not end up drinking all that much, or having a problem with it. Hilariously, my local paper now had a picture of a pop machine filled with beer instead, which was in a FIREHOUSE, not available to the public or anything, and some people were scandalized.

[Rosa]

I live in Australia where the drinking age is 18. I can't believe Americas drinking age is 21... honestly. I'm 20, I have been married for almost 3 years, and have one child and one on the way, whether you think that's right or wrong I am legally able to do it. And yet in America I still wouldn't be allowed to drink?

That one differs by state - 20 years ago, when I was underage, in my home state (Iowa) you were legal to drink if you were married. I think it was intended to allow champagne at weddings but it was pretty open-ended.

Also, my son has only even tasted beer once (when he was 18 months, he managed to climb up on a table & try to drink out of an empty bottle after a party, which made him yowl and spit and be really unhappy from just the dregs he got) but we have a LOT of pictures of him wearing devil horns & holding beer cans. It's something people think is funny, posing infants w/booze. Because it's taken as a given that nobody's actually letting them DRINK it. One of my friends drew a pirate moustache & beard on him when he was like a year old, at a party - we have a ton of photos. This is the group of people who all had dollar dances at their weddings at the VFW hall, too. My people.

[alba]

In the UK, it's legal for children to drink in their own home with parental supervision from age 5. At 16 you can have wine or beer with a restaurant meal, and liqueur chocolates. At 18 you can drink everything else. While I wouldn't give a 5yo booze, when I was growing up I was frequently allowed a sip or two of my parents' drinks, just to try, and never liked it ;) When I was a teenager I could have a small glass of wine for a special occasion, and Baileys or amaretto in my coffee or hot chocolate at Christmas. In my 20s now and not a big drinker. If a teenager can get married, join the army and vote (all decisions requiring responsibility), then they should be able to drink alcohol.

I was going to post pretty much this. I was offered wine at 12 at a fancy restaurant meal, though of course Scotland is really cracking down on underage drinking. There's a pub I used to go to all the time when I was 17 because they NEVER IDed, but a couple years ago my then-22-year-old friend was kicked out because she couldn't prove she was over 18 as she had no ID on her. Personally, though, I think the drinking age should be 16 in Scotland because that's the age of majority. It seems daft to me that you can get married at 16, but can't buy a bottle of champagne for your anniversary a year later.

I don't see a problem with giving a young child a sip of alcohol, because chances are it will taste so revolting to them they won't want it again till they're at least a teenager, and as Elle said above it becomes something that "Mum and Dad like but I don't" rather than "Mum and Dad are keeping it from me".

I don't realy see anything wrong with the pictures, given that there's an adult holding the beer bottle who would be able to keep the baby from actually consuming any alcohol. It's not like the kid's sitting on the floor alone playing with the bottle. It might not be the brightest picture to post on a public blog, especially when you're looking to adopt, but I don't think the pictures themselves betray any irresponsibility.

[mpheels]

That one differs by state - 20 years ago, when I was underage, in my home state (Iowa) you were legal to drink if you were married. I think it was intended to allow champagne at weddings but it was pretty open-ended.

Currently, the drinking age is 21 in all 50 states. There used to be a lot of variation - beer and wine at 18, liquor at 21; any thing at 18; nothing until 21, etc... but in the 1980's the federal government starting withholding highway funds from any state that didn't have a minimum drinking age of 21. There are still a lot exceptions, which vary by state, but 21 is the minimum age to purchase alcohol everywhere in the US. For the most part, exceptions include consumption for religious purposes and consumption at home in the presence of a parent/guardian. In North Carolina, where I live, it is illegal for someone under age 21 to possess alcohol, technically can't even push the grocery cart with beer in it while shopping with a parent (yes, I was once scolded by the store manager when I was a teen). There used to be a loop hole where it was illegal to possess or consume alcohol under age, but it wasn't illegal to have alcohol in your system. When I was in college, it was pretty easy to get away with drinking because you just had to ditch the cup at the first sign of trouble. Just having it in your system wasn't illegal, so as long as you weren't caught with drink in hand, there were no charges. The state has since closed that loop hole, and will charge teens who have a BAC over 0. The only legal exception is for religious purposes, and even then there are a lot of rules.

[Rosa]

Like I said, I don't know if they've tightened it up, but in the mid-90s when all my friends were getting married, the marriage certificate was also an exception (maybe only for women, even - thinking back they all married older dudes so maybe the exception was that your husband could stand in loco parentis for drinking purposes. Ick.)

[Trynn]

Currently, the drinking age is 21 in all 50 states. There used to be a lot of variation - beer and wine at 18, liquor at 21; any thing at 18; nothing until 21, etc... but in the 1980's the federal government starting withholding highway funds from any state that didn't have a minimum drinking age of 21. There are still a lot exceptions, which vary by state, but 21 is the minimum age to purchase alcohol everywhere in the US. For the most part, exceptions include consumption for religious purposes and consumption at home in the presence of a parent/guardian. In North Carolina, where I live, it is illegal for someone under age 21 to possess alcohol, technically can't even push the grocery cart with beer in it while shopping with a parent (yes, I was once scolded by the store manager when I was a teen). There used to be a loop hole where it was illegal to possess or consume alcohol under age, but it wasn't illegal to have alcohol in your system. When I was in college, it was pretty easy to get away with drinking because you just had to ditch the cup at the first sign of trouble. Just having it in your system wasn't illegal, so as long as you weren't caught with drink in hand, there were no charges. The state has since closed that loop hole, and will charge teens who have a BAC over 0. The only legal exception is for religious purposes, and even then there are a lot of rules.

Yes. This. There used to be variation, but the government interfered... THIS is the kind of government interference that I'm against. I'll all for welfare and the like, but I don't think the government should have a right to tell an adult they can't have alcohol. And don't even get me started on seat belt laws...

[geniebelle6901]

I have to wonder, what part of "it's against the law" don't people understand. Just this week a teacher's aide in a nearby town was arrested for hosting a graduation party and serving alcohol. Oh, but it wasn't a whistle blower who ratted on her. It was 2 kids to tried to drive home, but got into an accident. Luckily, it was only a minor, and the kids weren't hurt badly. However, these kids now have a criminal record, and this teacher's aide's career is practically ruined. So, now how exactly is allowing underage drinking ok?

[treemom]

I have to wonder, what part of "it's against the law" don't people understand. Just this week a teacher's aide in a nearby town was arrested for hosting a graduation party and serving alcohol. Oh, but it wasn't a whistle blower who ratted on her. It was 2 kids to tried to drive home, but got into an accident. Luckily, it was only a minor, and the kids weren't hurt badly. However, these kids now have a criminal record, and this teacher's aide's career is practically ruined. So, now how exactly is allowing underage drinking ok?

That is against the law. But it isn't against the law in many states for minor children to have alcohol if it is provided by the parents in their residence.

[kpmom]

However, these kids now have a criminal record, and this teacher's aide's career is practically ruined. So, now how exactly is allowing underage drinking ok?

Seriously? Only practically ruined?

[treemom]

Seriously? Only practically ruined?

Yeah I have to say it is a whole different beast when someone who either not the parent (and further more should not be hosting a party like this) gives alcohol to minors.

[geniebelle6901]

Seriously? Only practically ruined?

Well, knowing my state, it wouldn't shock me for her to be hired somewhere else or put on probation or something like that. Personally, I don't think she should be allowed around children...period.

[fencesitter]

I have seen a ton of pics of a baby grabbing a beer bottle out of their dad's hand similar to this. I think it is important to note that they are giving it to the kid to drink. There are a million other things to snark on this blog, but this is a pretty inoculous pic... I wouldn't call this underage drinking. For the record I think TX law says you can drink in the presence of a parent or of-age spouse

[geniebelle6901]

What makes it ok for a parent to give their underage kid alcohol? It's still against the law. Just wait til little Johnny or Susie tells their friends about their mom/dad who lets them drink. Who wants CPS or the cops at their door? It can and does happen.

[treemom]

What makes it ok for a parent to give their underage kid alcohol? It's still against the law. Just wait til little Johnny or Susie tells their friends about their mom/dad who lets them drink. Who wants CPS or the cops at their door? It can and does happen.

Ok let me try this again, no it isn't. Around 40 US states have exemptions for underage consumption laws. The exemptions vary but most of them allow for religious exemptions (like Communion) and have exemptions for parents within their own residence. Some exemptions allow for military to drink under 21. Some allow for parents to allow alcohol in a place where it is available for purchase if they are 18-21.

It is not against the law for me to give my son alcohol in those states that allow an exemption for parents.

[Coconut Flan]

If it weren't allowed for certain purposes, half our church would be going to jail every Sunday.

[mpheels]

Yes. This. There used to be variation, but the government interfered... THIS is the kind of government interference that I'm against. I'll all for welfare and the like, but I don't think the government should have a right to tell an adult they can't have alcohol. And don't even get me started on seat belt laws...

Yeah, if you're legally able to consent to pretty much anything else, and purchase any other legal substance or product, you should be able to purchase alcohol. Parents should be able to give their children alcohol within reason, and I would think anything unreasonable is already covered by abuse/neglect laws. The current drinking age in the US is a direct result of lobbying efforts from Mother's Against Drunk Driving.

I'm not so bothered by seat belt laws. At least where I live, it's a minor violation (no points, no court costs), and the fines are $10 for back seat and $25 for front seat. The penalties are more harsh for children under 16 without a seat belt, but I personally think it is child neglect to let a minor ride without seat belt.

[Rosa]

You know, states could have said "that's okay, keep your highway funding!" and kept any drinking age they wanted. Is the purpose of the federal government no-strings pork these days?

[mpheels]

For the US drinking age, it's really important to understand that 21 is the minimum age for purchasing alcohol. That is what the federal law encourage/forces states to do. States do still have a lot of leeway in the rules for whether or not people under 21 can consume alcohol. Some states do not permit any alcohol consumption under age 21, others (like TN, apparently) give parents/guardians a lot of discretion. Even in states with few exceptions, enforcement is a different issue. As I said before, during my pre-21 years, it was illegal for me to possess or consume alcohol in my state. Despite the law, I was routinely offered (and accepted) a glass of wine a the "special occasion" restaurant my family loved. I was always with my parents, who were purchasing a bottle of wine. The sommelier at that restaurant is also the owner. He knows my parents well, and with their consent he was happy to pour a glass for me. It was a calculated risk on his part, but he knew us and trusted us, and the restaurant is not a prime target for alcohol law enforcement b/c they have very few underage patrons.

[TXDuck]

So, now how exactly is allowing underage drinking ok?

In Texas, and in Louisiana where I grew up, a parent or legal guardian can serve their children. I don't understand how you can't see the difference between hosting a graduation party and serving alcohol and letting your kid have wine with dinner. (Caveat: My parents did serve alcohol at my graduation party and at my brother's. Back then, the drinking age was 18.) Also legal/illegal doesn't make something right/wrong, just legal/illegal. (But that's more of my personal philosophy.)

Additionally, here in Texas, I really, really don't see anyone calling CPS on parents letting their kids have the occasional beer, etc. If they were hosting all night raves, serving other people's kids, that would be a problem. You letting your own 16 year old have champagne at the family reunion? No one's going to even blink.