Essential oils instead of antibiotics?

[NurseNell]

I think the issue with anti-bacterial soaps and neosporin is that they kill off the helpful bacteria on your skin, so any resistant strains of unhelpful bacteria can colonize quickly. We have a problem right now in a major teaching hospital in this city with a really nasty strain of C. difficile that is totally drug-resistant and that makes MRSA look like a minor inconvenience. If a patient with a compromised immune system, or who has been dosed with antibiotics prior to surgery or giving birth picks up this bacteria it takes over in the colon with life-threatening results. A friend of mine went into this hospital last month for back surgery, two weeks later she was in the ICU at another hospital with toxic colon syndrome, and a week later she underwent a colostomy procedure to save her life.

I agree about the anti-bacterial soaps, I don't use them. I had C. difficile several years ago and it was awful, it started while I was on a road trip. At first I thought I must have cancer of the colon. I cut my road trip short and returned home. Fortunately I was treated pretty promptly and didn't develop the toxic colon syndrome but I was really sick for awhile. Mine developed while on Clindamycin for a resistant dental abscess, and clindamycin is one antibiotic that is more apt to lead to C. Diff.

[Guest Anonymous]

If you know of anybody in AL who has a child on medicaid or AllKids, here's a link to the dental clinic I was talking about earlier: http://www.sarrelldental.org/. There are 13 branches throughout AL.

[SimplyMe]

When I had my wisdom teeth out (they were impacted and therefore surgically removed), I wasn't given any prophalytic antibiotics and about 4-5 days after the procedure, half of my face suddenly swelled up. They took that quite seriously and put me on a broad spectrum antibiotic right away. They said it was a "rare" complication. This was nearly 15 years ago, so the policy has maybe changed since then. I also got dry socket on the other side- it wasn't the most pleasant couple of weeks in my life, but at least they DID prescribe pain meds- I can't believe there are docs out there who don't!

Along those lines, I didn't get any prophalytic antibiotics when I had my first c-section and developed a uterine infection that not only made me feel like crap, but extended my hospital stay an extra 5 days. I requested prophylactic antibiotics for my next c-section even though the dr said it wasn't standard procedure in their practice. I didn't want to overuse them, but I also didn't want to risk another uterine infection. My dr agreed and was totally fine with that request. I was surprised that when cutting you open that much, that a dose of abx wasn't standard, but apparently it isn't since these were two different doctors in 2 different states (one east coast, one west) and neither did as standard practice.

I think most drs these days are far less quick to prescribe abx. Even just since my oldest (11yo) was a baby, the pediatricians are slower to give abx for things. Just this week, I took my 6 year old son in because he was going on several days of high fever and coughing- dr suspected mycoplasma pneumonia (walking pneumonia), but sent a colleague in to listen to his chest and get a second opinion because he didn't want to prescribe us abx unnecessarily. The second dr also heard crackling in my son's lung, so he's on abx and has improved immensely since he started them 2 days ago.

As for neosporin, I only use or rarely when a cut seems swollen or irritated. Usually we just wash with soap and water and stick a bandaid on cuts. That was our drs recommendation even after my daughter developed a staph infection (skin) on her knee from a scrape she for when she fell off her bike. I asked if I should have done something different and be said no, that soap and water is usually adequate.

I'm being too lazy to google this, but I thought alcohol worked differently than antibacterial washes and that is why drs/scientists aren't concerned about hand sanitizer causing bacterial resistance, but do strongly advise against routine usage of antibacterial soaps- I know I've read that somewhere. Any medical professionals here who can verify that?

[emmiedahl]

I'm being too lazy to google this, but I thought alcohol worked differently than antibacterial washes and that is why drs/scientists aren't concerned about hand sanitizer causing bacterial resistance, but do strongly advise against routine usage of antibacterial soaps- I know I've read that somewhere. Any medical professionals here who can verify that?

Yes, that is what I have heard. My microbiology prof says to clean all you want with bleach, lysol, vinegar (not all of them of course!) but to avoid anything that says antibacterial. The antibiotics don't break down and end up messing with the natural balance of our environment.

[chiccy]

Yes, that is what I have heard. My microbiology prof says to clean all you want with bleach, lysol, vinegar (not all of them of course!) but to avoid anything that says antibacterial. The antibiotics don't break down and end up messing with the natural balance of our environment.

Lysol is OK? It seems to contain some antibacterial agents other than alcohol...

[treemom]

The rest of you who didn't get antibiotics didn't have an OBGYN who told you it was ok if you died in a c-section and a psychologist who ruined your life with CBT. Elle did. Based on that and her dentist who apparently didn't give her antibiotics or instruction on preventing dry socket I have concluded she has the shittiest health care providers in the world.

[treemom]

And to add to the anecdata. I had 8 teeth pulled when I had my braces put on 3 years ago (and they come off in 5 days!!) over two visits. I received pain pill, antibiotics, instructions, gauze and a little syringe to clean it with.

[Arete]

Quick explaination of the antibacterial/antibiotic killing versus bleach/ammonia/vinegar.

Bleach/ ammonia/ vinegar destroy a lot of bacterial membranes immediately, basically think of it as if you get shot point blank in the heart, you are always going to die because the damage is catastrophic.

A lot of antibiotics and antibacterials work by invading the bacteria and stopping REPRODUCTION. The bacteria will live out it's natural life cycle and basically die of old age. In the body that is being treated by antibiotics, the meds stop reproduction, an your immune system does the mop up work of destroying the bacteria that can no longer reproduce. That is why it is so important to finish all your antibiotics, to give your body time to do the mop up of cells that can no longer reproduce. Antibiotic resistance comes into play because it only takes 1, just one organism that has an evolutionary mutation that allows it circumvent the antibiotics ability to shut down its reproduction. This organism can then start multiplying and overwelm the immune systems response to kill it off because of sheer numbers.

Bleach, vinegar, alcohol etc KILL on contact, and just as no human body has been able to evolve to survive a point blank heart shot, no bacterial cell membrane can survive a chemical catastrophe. Bacterial spores can, but if you allow the spores to "bloom and become bacteria with a membrane, the next round of bleach is going to kill it. Soap and water physically remove the top layer of bacteria from the epidermis.

I've been a microbiologist for over 2 decades, so proper use of antibiotics and bacterial resistance is near and dear to my heart. This I will give as microbiologist advice: If you have antibacterial soaps at home, THROW THEM OUT. Because they interupt reproduction as opposed to outright killing, they breed superbugs. I do apologize that this got too long.

[LadyBlue]

But Strep B is easy to clear up before birth. It's just a round of antibiotics. Why didn't said midwife write them a script for that? Strep B can even be cleared up with the really cheap antibiotics. I don't understand why anyone would do something so idiotic over something so simple.

They never do antibiotics before birth for GBS because you can be recolonized so easily and be positive again by the birth. Antibiotics for GBS are really controversial, actually. Most countries don't give them at birth unless there are actual risk factors (premature baby, water broken) besides the mother having a positive test because giving the antibiotics does decrease GBS colonization of the newborn BUT the antibiotics themselves can cause issues, so the morbidity/mortality stats are a wash, using the antibiotics on every mother who tested positive hasn't changed the overall numbers at all. Most other countries prefer to monitor the baby and treat if the baby actually develops signs of GBS infection.

Studies are showing that using a product called Hibiclens is as effective at getting rid of the infection as antibiotics, without the issues from the drugs. Most doctors aren't taking notice yet, but some midwives are having their GBS positive clients use it and be retested before the birth, as well as using it after labour starts.

[SimplyMe]

Quick explaination of the antibacterial/antibiotic killing versus bleach/ammonia/vinegar.

Bleach/ ammonia/ vinegar destroy a lot of bacterial membranes immediately, basically think of it as if you get shot point blank in the heart, you are always going to die because the damage is catastrophic.

A lot of antibiotics and antibacterials work by invading the bacteria and stopping REPRODUCTION. The bacteria will live out it's natural life cycle and basically die of old age. In the body that is being treated by antibiotics, the meds stop reproduction, an your immune system does the mop up work of destroying the bacteria that can no longer reproduce. That is why it is so important to finish all your antibiotics, to give your body time to do the mop up of cells that can no longer reproduce. Antibiotic resistance comes into play because it only takes 1, just one organism that has an evolutionary mutation that allows it circumvent the antibiotics ability to shut down its reproduction. This organism can then start multiplying and overwelm the immune systems response to kill it off because of sheer numbers.

Bleach, vinegar, alcohol etc KILL on contact, and just as no human body has been able to evolve to survive a point blank heart shot, no bacterial cell membrane can survive a chemical catastrophe. Bacterial spores can, but if you allow the spores to "bloom and become bacteria with a membrane, the next round of bleach is going to kill it. Soap and water physically remove the top layer of bacteria from the epidermis.

I've been a microbiologist for over 2 decades, so proper use of antibiotics and bacterial resistance is near and dear to my heart. This I will give as microbiologist advice: If you have antibacterial soaps at home, THROW THEM OUT. Because they interupt reproduction as opposed to outright killing, they breed superbugs. I do apologize that this got too long.

Thank You!!! That is an easy to understand (for those of us who aren't microbiologists!) explanation. I will pass that info on to anyone I see using antibacterial soap. :)

[Third]

There is a time and place to use antibiotics. After surgery is one of those times. I however take probiotics during and after the script to help avoid a yeast overgrowth. :)

I don't take antibotics for everything but surgery even more so in a wet, warm, moist area is just asking for trouble.

[NurseNell]

There is a time and place to use antibiotics. After surgery is one of those times. I however take probiotics during and after the script to help avoid a yeast overgrowth. :)

I don't take antibotics for everything but surgery even more so in a wet, warm, moist area is just asking for trouble.

I've had several major surgeries and have not required antibiotics after. Sinuses are wet, warm, and moist and I had surgery on my maxillary sinus for cancer, no antibiotics needed. Major abdominal surgery for stomach cancer, no antibiotics needed. Bilateral mastectomies, no antibiotics needed. Now with a colon resection I could see prophylactic antibiotics, and certainly with a ruptured diverticuli. I even had a ruptured appendix in 1962 and no antibiotics were given, the surgeon just irrigated the cavity real well with sterile saline. I've never had a post op wound infection.

[Austin]

Good to know I'm not harming my family by buying pretty (regular, not antibiotic) handsoaps for a buck apiece at Bed, Bath and Beyond. :)

[emmiedahl]

I've had several major surgeries and have not required antibiotics after. Sinuses are wet, warm, and moist and I had surgery on my maxillary sinus for cancer, no antibiotics needed. Major abdominal surgery for stomach cancer, no antibiotics needed. Bilateral mastectomies, no antibiotics needed. Now with a colon resection I could see prophylactic antibiotics, and certainly with a ruptured diverticuli. I even had a ruptured appendix in 1962 and no antibiotics were given, the surgeon just irrigated the cavity real well with sterile saline. I've never had a post op wound infection.

But you had c-diff?

[Third]

I've had several major surgeries and have not required antibiotics after. Sinuses are wet, warm, and moist and I had surgery on my maxillary sinus for cancer, no antibiotics needed. Major abdominal surgery for stomach cancer, no antibiotics needed. Bilateral mastectomies, no antibiotics needed. Now with a colon resection I could see prophylactic antibiotics, and certainly with a ruptured diverticuli. I even had a ruptured appendix in 1962 and no antibiotics were given, the surgeon just irrigated the cavity real well with sterile saline. I've never had a post op wound infection.

It's a personal choice. If you have been okay and you are comfortable with it. By all means don't take antibiotics. I prefer to and after getting a really bad infection - the 2 days of IV antibiotics, being sensitive to sun for weeks...I'd rather be careful and avoid a repeat of that.

My dentist gives antibiotics after dental surgery. I trust him to rip teeth out of my head and to know what he's doing if I didn't I would go to someone else. So if he thinks I need em I take em.

[Wolfie]

Cystitis runs in my family and that is the infection I never try to heal myself and wish it will go away on its own. Never. I learned it the hard way. When the first symptoms start, I will go directly to doctor and get my antibiotics. Drinking excessive amounts of fluid, eating/drinking cranberries and consuming vitamin C is not helping. Once I have the infection, it will stick without antibiotics. Same goes with my relatives, some can get rid of infection, but not my family :? . I have had preventive medication (6 months a time) a few times and I have learned all kind of things to avoid infection and I haven't had one for years, luckily.

I have this issue with sinus infections. I'm working on allergy shots to help reduce them, but as soon as I get a sinus infection I go in for antibiotics.

I wasn't given antibiotics after my wisdom teeth were out, and I didn't have an infection. But then, it was an extraction and they weren't impacted. I wasn't given antibiotics after root canals either, but after both I have had to go back and get them, and one had to be emptied out, filled with disinfectant and redone once it healed.

[NurseNell]

But you had c-diff?

Yes, after 3 weeks of Clindamycin for a stubborn dental abscess. Clindamycin has a higher incidence of causing c.diff than many other antibiotics.

[Wolfie]

Yes, that is what I have heard. My microbiology prof says to clean all you want with bleach, lysol, vinegar (not all of them of course!) but to avoid anything that says antibacterial. The antibiotics don't break down and end up messing with the natural balance of our environment.

This is what a chemist cousin of mine says too. Bleach, Vinegar, and alcohol. She's not too big on lysol, but it may be because some of the newer ones have different antibacterial things in them (I think she'd be fine with the old brown bottle), and she has some scent sensitivities.

[NurseNell]

It's a personal choice. If you have been okay and you are comfortable with it. By all means don't take antibiotics. I prefer to and after getting a really bad infection - the 2 days of IV antibiotics, being sensitive to sun for weeks...I'd rather be careful and avoid a repeat of that.

Actually the choice isn't usually made by the patient but made by the surgeon. There have been times when antibiotics saved my life, when I had septic shock from pneumonia. But routinely giving antibiotics for any and all surgeries is part of what has led to resistant organisms.

[apple1]

Actually the choice isn't usually made by the patient but made by the surgeon.

NurseNell is right about this (at least in the US). Patients cannot prescribe antibiotics for themselves. (Of course, a patient can refuse some item of treatment, but then the doc may choose to refuse to have that person as a patient if he/she is unwilling to agree to the patient's refusals...)

Moving forward: What I don't think has been mentioned yet in this thread is since that agricultural uses account for 70 percent of the antibiotics and related drugs used in the United States, and this provides resistant bacteria with a direct route into human lives.

Better management and reduced use of antibiotics in agriculture would be key to reducing the development of bacterial resistance.

A human patient refusing antibiotics after surgery is not even a blip compared to the agricultural thing.

[Third]

I have always discussed these things with the doctors before hand - including antibiotics and been included in the choice. I thought most people did as part of the pre-op appt.

Considering people take daily antibiotics to prevent acne etc I think there are a lot more common and stupid overuse\misuse of antibiotics out there than routine antibiotics after surgery.

[kb2]

I have always discussed these things with the doctors before hand - including antibiotics and been included in the choice. I thought most people did as part of the pre-op appt.

Considering people take daily antibiotics to prevent acne etc I think there are a lot more common and stupid overuse\misuse of antibiotics out there than routine antibiotics after surgery.

People shouldn't be taking antibiotics every day of their lives to prevent acne.

However, a course of antibiotics can be very effective in reducing acne, and I don't think that should be scoffed at because acne is seen as frivolous. Strangers used to come up to me and ask how I got poison ivy all over my body. I had friends who never made fun of me (for my acne), but it is seen as so universally disgusting by every age group that I never admitted my "rashes" were acne if I didn't need to. I became close friends with turtlenecks and tried to ignore the looks I got when I wore anything less around new people.

People are so down on Accutane and antibiotics for acne, but the strong drugs are the only reason I can wear short sleeves or defraud anyone with my collarbone. I'm not some idiot who freaked out over one spot on her nose and had to go after it on a thermonuclear level--I just want to look like everyone else.

This isn't really my antibiotics rant, it's my acne rant. :angry-soapbox:

[TXDuck]

People shouldn't be taking antibiotics every day of their lives to prevent acne.

My husband has to take antibiotics two weeks on, two weeks off to keep his acne. So not quite every day of his life but close. Like you said, acne isn't frivolous in some people. It would be and has been physically scarring in his case. Never mind the mental implications of being a 40 year old guy with acne.

[kb2]

My husband has to take antibiotics two weeks on, two weeks off to keep his acne. So not quite every day of his life but close. Like you said, acne isn't frivolous in some people. It would be and has been physically scarring in his case. Never mind the mental implications of being a 40 year old guy with acne.

Darn, I've been out-ranted.

[TXDuck]

Sorry, I swear that wasn't my intention. I was agreeing with you that acne isn't a frivolous concern for some people.