Essential oils instead of antibiotics?

[Dinorah]

On Feelin Feminine there's a whole string of posts on candida prevention. In the last one, the author advocates not taking anti-biotics in order to avoid candida, but to use essential oils instead

feelinfeminine.com/?p=9304

Right aftewards, however, she admits to having had an infection as a consequence of not using essential oils properly after wisdom tooth surgery.

I get it that antibiotics should be used sparingly and that they have lots of side-effects, and I'm in favour of natural remedies whenever possible, but there are times were they are needed and are useful. It seems dangerous and irresponsible to me that a 21-yo with no medical training would give this sort of advice to a potentially gullible and not very educated audience. It also turns out that "Lady Abigail"-surprise, surprise-sells essential oils online. Anyway I don't get why some fundies have such a deep aversion to any kind of mainstream medicine. I get trying to have a natural/organic lifestyle, but sometimes it just seems obsessive and paranoid.

[Soldevi]

Yep, Jacque said she used lavender oil to blood blisters...

I agree that some antibiotics are not necessary, for example majority on sinusitis cases don't need antibiotic treatment. And I use tea tree oil to treat my athlete's foot (I know tea tree oil doesn't kill the mycosis but I usually have only a single wound in my toe and it helps to close it). Gargling with salt water and using Greater Plantain to small wounds is just a common way to treat small things but I would never ever try to treat big infections with essential oils or burn my skin with garlic...

Modern medicines have strong roots in herbalism. I don't understand why they object medicine so much. You can't never be sure how much a plant produces chemical compounds and taking them can be a toxic roulette.

[chiccy]

I guess I can understand using essential oils instead of topical antibiotics for minor problems. But using them instead of prescribed oral antibiotics for serious conditions is just reckless. Fundies need to stop thinking that they know better than experts about medicine as well as science, religion, and education. It wouldn't bother me so much if their helpless and innocent children were not also endangered by these parents' stupidity and hubris.

That said, essential oils can be very good antiseptics. Lemongrass and cinnamon bark oil are even more potent than tea tree oil and kill many, many types of bacteria and viruses including MRSA/staph and strep.

[Conuly]

I never use non-prescription antibiotics. Overuse of antibiotics has bred many incredibly virulent diseases, and I don't want to be a part of it.

But heck yeah, I take any antibiotic I'm actually prescribed by a doctor! And I complete the full course. There's an enormous difference between looking at the cut on my hand and saying "I've never lost a hand due to paper cut yet" or waiting a few days before getting an ear infection checked out (most ear infections clear up on their own, and antibiotics are not needed) and self-treating after surgery.

[chiccy]

I never use non-prescription antibiotics.

Are there such things?

[Conuly]

Neosporin is a topical antibiotic for cuts, isn't it? They even sell bandaids already topped with the stuff.

[chiccy]

Neosporin is a topical antibiotic for cuts, isn't it? They even sell bandaids already topped with the stuff.

Oh, I thought you meant oral antibiotics. Really, you don't use Neosporin? I confess I don't see how Neosporin is any worse than using alcohol or iodine on a wound. Does it contribute to resistant bacteria? Probably to some extent, but doctors and hospitals have their own, tougher topicals that can take care of those bacteria.

I think that if it were a real public health problem, Neosporin would be restricted.

[clibbyjo]

I have used essential oils/herbs instead of antibiotics many times. I am also friends with several herbalists I can ask and know a lot about medicinal herbs myself from years of experience. I usually give it a week on the natural course and if nothing has changed for the better or it gets worse I will go for the antibiotics. It depends on many things and I am not going to let my kid suffer just to prove I can cure something with oils instead.I don't need to prove anything,I know what works and what doesn't for the most part.

They want to win the "natural mother award" for the week ,that is all it is. I think there pride is showing.. :doh:

[Conuly]

Really, you don't use Neosporin? I confess I don't see how Neosporin is any worse than using alcohol or iodine on a wound.

No, I don't use Neosporin, nor alcohol, nor iodine. I wash a cut with soap and water. That's really sufficient for most circumstances.

Does it contribute to resistant bacteria? Probably to some extent, but doctors and hospitals have their own, tougher topicals that can take care of those bacteria.

Except they don't. Drug resistant staph kills almost 100,000 people a year in the US. Some resistant diseases are immune to several different antibiotics - and we can't keep inventing more forever! (This goes not just for topical things, but for other illnesses as well. Tuberculosis, for example, is rebounding - and there are varieties of TB that are resistant to every single antibiotic we currently have. This isn't hyperbole.)

I think that if it were a real public health problem, Neosporin would be restricted.

Oh, you mean the fact that all the doctors at my local center are trained to advise you not to take antibiotics unless it's crucially necessary, and how there are signs up all over the place there advising that antibiotics are generally not useful, this doesn't indicate that it might be a public health problem? It's not like the city is paying for this training and advertising campaign.

That comment is like saying "I think that if gasoline really contributed to climate change, and climate change were a real problem, we'd restrict gasoline". Humans don't always do the easy, obvious thing.

[chiccy]

No, I don't use Neosporin, nor alcohol, nor iodine. I wash a cut with soap and water. That's really sufficient for most circumstances.

Except they don't.

Yes, of course they do. There are tons of prescription-only topical antibiotics.

Drug resistant staph kills almost 100,000 people a year in the US. Some resistant diseases are immune to several different antibiotics - and we can't keep inventing more forever! (This goes not just for topical things, but for other illnesses as well. Tuberculosis, for example, is rebounding - and there are varieties of TB that are resistant to every single antibiotic we currently have. This isn't hyperbole.)

You are right that there are some bacteria that can evade everything we have, both topically and internally. Resistant tuberculosis is an extremely well-known concern. I'm not denying that resistant strains exist and are a huge problem, just that Neosporin use is a cause for concern.

Oh, you mean the fact that all the doctors at my local center are trained to advise you not to take antibiotics unless it's crucially necessary, and how there are signs up all over the place there advising that antibiotics are generally not useful, this doesn't indicate that it might be a public health problem? It's not like the city is paying for this training and advertising campaign.

That comment is like saying "I think that if gasoline really contributed to climate change, and climate change were a real problem, we'd restrict gasoline". Humans don't always do the easy, obvious thing.

...Trained to advise you not to take antibiotics. Did they ever specifically advise against Neosporin? Your last point is a fair one, but I still am not convinced that Neosporin use is a public health concern. However, I will stand corrected if you can show me some proof. Do you have any? Have you ever even heard a doctor specifically advise against the use of OTC topical antibiotics?

[clibbyjo]

And the Neosporin war of 2012 begins.... :doh:

[Conuly]

Yes, of course they do. There are tons of prescription-only topical antibiotics.

And tons of diseases which are resistant to them. Do you honestly think that the rise in drug-resistant bacteria has NOTHING to do with the increased sale and advertisement of otc antibiotics?

Have you ever even heard a doctor specifically advise against the use of OTC topical antibiotics?

I've heard doctors laugh and say that they're unnecessary to other people (good hearing + loud doctors = privacy isn't as great as they think). I've never asked about it, though, because it's stupid. Soap and water was what we used as kids, we didn't die, soap and water is still considered good enough today, so that's what we use.

But you want ONE link? Well, google is my friend...!

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/14365.php

http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/1 ... -ointment/

http://www.webmd.com/parenting/news/201 ... ad-of-mrsa

http://www.drugs.com/pro/neosporin.html (note how it specifically says that you may be breeding resistant germs through overuse!)

http://www.euro.who.int/en/what-we-publ ... -in-europe (This doesn't talk specifically about neosporin, but it highlights the fact that just because something is a known issue, that doesn't mean we'll all rationally deal with it.)

http://www.economist.com/node/18483671? ... N=10661035

http://www.worldwidewounds.com/2004/feb ... gents.html

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictio ... ntibiotics

There, that was easy! I wish I had better sources, but I'd have to dig up print articles for that.

And the Neosporin war of 2012 begins.... :doh:

Nah, once I resort to googling madly I generally shut up on a topic. I can only talk so much before I repeat myself.

[emmiedahl]

Back to the issue of oral antibiotics, they aren't like an internal nuclear bomb. They only kill bacteria and only certain types of bacteria. And a lot of that bacteria is your "good" bacteria, the natural flora that keeps your body in balance. So if your body is not good at dealing with yeast, you might get a yeast infection. It's not a reason to avoid antibiotics when you need them. Yeast can be easily dealt with--eat some probiotics, maybe put a little plain, live culture yogurt in certain regions. There are some bacteria that are highly resistant to antibiotics, like C. difficile, which naturally is resistant because it is a spore-former and also because of its natural structure. If you remove good bacteria, these can flourish because suddenly there is ample space and nutrients. In this case, it is not that the antibiotics don't work, but that they work incredibly well against the microbes they target. If an essential oil works as well, it will create the same issues because these have nothing to do with the antibiotic itself, but rather the wholesale genocide of certain types of bacteria.

Modern medicine is very aware of the issues with antibiotic drug resistance. Believe me. So if your doctor is prescribing antibiotics, there are two potential reasons: 1., he is a douchebag who does not care about your health or public health. Dr. Evil? Or 2., you have a valid need for antibiotics despite potential drawbacks.

If you have questions about your antibiotics, ask your physician. S/he is up on the latest developments and can tell you why antibiotics are necessary and how you can mitigate any side effects.

[Boltingmadonna]

Yeast is a fungus and is treated with anti-fungal medications. Not the same as antibiotics, which kill bacteria. I once tried treating a yeast infection with yogurt--by topical application, not by eating it. MAJOR FAIL. I don't recommend it. Also, if you think you have a yeast infection, it's a good idea to see a doctor even though the anti-yeast meds are now OTC, because it might not be yeast. It might be a bacterial infection, and then you would need antibiotics.

[Conuly]

Modern medicine is very aware of the issues with antibiotic drug resistance. Believe me. So if your doctor is prescribing antibiotics, there are two potential reasons: 1., he is a douchebag who does not care about your health or public health. Dr. Evil? Or 2., you have a valid need for antibiotics despite potential drawbacks.

Indeed, which is why I said I always take prescription antibiotics when, um, prescribed them, and tried in my first comment to draw a line between running and begging for antibiotics at the first little sniffle and taking them because you're actually sick.

(Though funnily, I found in googling that it IS possible in NYC to purchase prescription antibiotics over the counter, and it's a huge public health issue. It's also *illegal*, but so's cocaine and people use that as well. The things I wish I never knew.)

[chiccy]

Modern medicine is very aware of the issues with antibiotic drug resistance. Believe me.

Antibiotic-resistant strains are a serious problem. If Neosporin were significantly implicated in that problem, smart people would be telling us about it...just like they do about gasoline.

The CDC says not a word about Neosporin or any other over-the-counter topical antimicrobial as concerns of drug resistance. If I missed something on their website, please do show me.

*Sorry, where in the Economist article you linked do they mention OTC topicals? I found one mention of "over-the-counter antibiotics," but this article is not US-specific and could well be addressing the problem of OTC antibiotics in other countries. Other countries are a substantial focus of the article. Or perhaps this concern relates to the overuse of antibiotics in US veterinary medicine, as the article goes on to discuss. What makes you think they are talking about Neosporin?

[chiccy]

Conuly, I've kept reading and I think you are right. I stand corrected. Thanks for teaching me something.

[CelticGoddess]

On Feelin Feminine there's a whole string of posts on candida prevention. In the last one, the author advocates not taking anti-biotics in order to avoid candida, but to use essential oils instead

feelinfeminine.com/?p=9304

Right aftewards, however, she admits to having had an infection as a consequence of not using essential oils properly after wisdom tooth surgery.

I get it that antibiotics should be used sparingly and that they have lots of side-effects, and I'm in favour of natural remedies whenever possible, but there are times were they are needed and are useful. It seems dangerous and irresponsible to me that a 21-yo with no medical training would give this sort of advice to a potentially gullible and not very educated audience. It also turns out that "Lady Abigail"-surprise, surprise-sells essential oils online. Anyway I don't get why some fundies have such a deep aversion to any kind of mainstream medicine. I get trying to have a natural/organic lifestyle, but sometimes it just seems obsessive and paranoid.

I certainly hope she doesn't take anti-biotics to prevent candida. Anti-biotics overuse can lead to an overgrowth of candida albicans. If it is yeast in skin folds, tea tree soap, keeping the area dry can work wonders. Vaginal yeast, garlic can work, but you'll smell like garlic. Super yeast is becoming more common, unfortunately, and is resistant to nystatin.

[emmiedahl]

Antibiotic-resistant strains are a serious problem. If Neosporin were significantly implicated in that problem, smart people would be telling us about it...just like they do about gasoline.

The CDC says not a word about Neosporin or any other over-the-counter topical antimicrobial as concerns of drug resistance. If I missed something on their website, please do show me.

*Sorry, where in the Economist article you linked do they mention OTC topicals? I found one mention of "over-the-counter antibiotics," but this article is not US-specific and could well be addressing the problem of OTC antibiotics in other countries. Other countries are a substantial focus of the article. Or perhaps this concern relates to the overuse of antibiotics in US veterinary medicine, as the article goes on to discuss. What makes you think they are talking about Neosporin?

I also noticed that Conuly's links did not in general support her position. In fact, at least one says the exact opposite...

[kb2]

I will join the Great Neosporin War!

Iodine and alcohol are antiseptics, not antibiotics. :whistle:

Bacteria can develop resistance to both antiseptics and antibiotics. If bacteria become resistant to something, then there is one less option to kill the bacteria with. There are a limited number of antiseptics/antibiotics, so it would be nice to not run out. ETA: If used correctly, all bacteria being targeted should die, so there won't be any survivors to carry on resistance.

Neosporin has antibiotics in it, but it is mostly made up of petroleum jelly. Wounds heal faster when "wet," and petroleum jelly keeps them wet, so that's why Neosporin helps wounds heal faster. You could put plain (clean) petroleum jelly on a wound and it would heal equally as fast as a wound with Neosporin. No one--including Neosporin, if you look carefully at their advertising--claims that antibiotics help wounds heal faster, but that's the impression given when advertising says, "Neosporin contains antibiotics. Neosporin helps wounds heal faster."

As for the feelin' feminine post:

Human mouths are really full of bacteria, so if you have oral surgery and your doctor gives you antibiotics to take to prevent your mouth-bacteria from getting in your mouth wound, you should probably take them. :roll: Because are you really going to slosh around so much essential oil in your mouth that you're going to change the flora in there? Ew.

And she suggests taking an anti-fungal during and for a month after antibiotic treatment? That defeats the purpose of using non-drugs to avoid drug resistance! (Take this supplement with 14 active ingredients, it will protect you from the single-active ingredient druuuuuuuug you're taking. $33.50 for 90 pills which will only last you 15 days, so you're going to need two bottles a month.) Also also, it seems like a regimen of using essential oils/garlic/whatever in your vagina would contribute to bacterial vaginosis, which is the yeast-like infection that isn't yeast but caused by bacteria for which you need an antibiotic. I can understand using them after you've gotten a yeast infection, but why do that to your vagina to that for a month for just-in-cases?

I hate it when woo is all, modern medicine overtreats--so do these fifty things to completely kill this organism that makes up almost everyone's normal flora because it is the One True Cause of all disease! Don't even get me started on her spit test. Hey I know, let's treat a bunch of non-immunocompromised adults with no symptoms of thrush for mouth-Candida because their spit sinks. No, that makes sense.

[emmiedahl]

I certainly hope she doesn't take anti-biotics to prevent candida. Anti-biotics overuse can lead to an overgrowth of candida albicans. If it is yeast in skin folds, tea tree soap, keeping the area dry can work wonders. Vaginal yeast, garlic can work, but you'll smell like garlic. Super yeast is becoming more common, unfortunately, and is resistant to nystatin.

In some people (me!!!) antibiotics always come with a yeast infection unless I do something to stop it.

I am not recommending this, talk to your doctor, etc, but what works for me is an old wive's remedy of putting plain probiotic yogurt in the areas where the areas where the yeast gets to be an issue. I don't know if this would cure an existing infection, but it keeps it from developing. You feel a little weird putting yogurt in your hoo-hoo, but I hate yeast infections.

If it is a systemic issue, I think a prescription anti-fungal would be something to discuss with your doctor. But all of this crap comes with side effects, another thing to keep in mind.

[Dinorah]

I certainly hope she doesn't take anti-biotics to prevent candida. Anti-biotics overuse can lead to an overgrowth of candida albicans. If it is yeast in skin folds, tea tree soap, keeping the area dry can work wonders. Vaginal yeast, garlic can work, but you'll smell like garlic. Super yeast is becoming more common, unfortunately, and is resistant to nystatin.

Indeed she doesn't. She recommends not taking anti-biotics if you have candida and using essential oils instead. That's what she did after getting her wisdom teeth removed and had an infection as a consequence. I assume that if you have candida and your doctor suggests anti-biotics it might make sense to bring it up with him/her and see if the doctor suggests possible alternatives, rather than self-medicate. I couldn't help but picturing fundie SAHDs attempting to overcome pneumonia with essential oils. I understand not wanting to take anti-biotics, but the whole thing just smacked of "modern medicine is evil, buy my essential oils instead".

[She Who Laughs]

I know people who order and keep on hand fish antibiotics like this: http://www.4petsusa.com/index.php?l=pro ... ail&p=3888

Mostly they are people who have no insurance and do this instead of paying a fortune to go to the doctor for minor things.

[chiccy]

I also noticed that Conuly's links did not in general support her position. In fact, at least one says the exact opposite...

Emmie, which one was that? What I gathered from her links is that there is some evidence that certain forms of staph/MRSA may be becoming more resistant because of overuse of OTC topicals. I am more or less convinced by this, although I don't think it's one of the more serious problems relating to resistant microbes. Also, I didn't see any research that confirms the link, just some discussion that there "may" be one. I do think it is likely that there could be some link, but I haven't seen any proof. "May" is easy to say.

[ladypuglover]

And the Neosporin war of 2012 begins.... :doh:

:lol: I think you're right.