Defining Manliness

[debrand]

Great pictures!

Has anyone defined "manliness" as posed in the title? One of the funniest conversations I ever heard was between a bunch of gay men arguing over that very definition. From the pictures, I gather you feel manliness simply means being who you are?? Is there more of a definition? I'm asking because, as a straight woman, I have my own personal definition of manliness.

Why should anyone be able to define what it means to be a woman or man?

I spent years feeling out of sort because people kept telling me what a woman should feel or think, yet I often didn't fit that mold. As I've gotten older, I've become more angry at being told what box I should fit into.

The thread was started, not to define manliness, but to point out that there are many gay men who do amazingly tough, heroic and even traditionally masculine things. Some fundie men, like Mark Driscoll like to rant about what it means to be male. They want all men to be overly macho jerks, yet Driscoll and his like have never done anything half as brave as many gay and lesbians in the military.

[Clementine]

What a sweet photo! It's always so incredibly moving to see soldiers coming home and being welcomed by their families (or pets!). I am glad the the gay and lesbian soldiers can show their feelings now, just as much as the straight soldiers.

And yes, I hope that this photo will make Doug Philips head explode.

[valsa]

Why should anyone be able to define what it means to be a woman or man?

Very true. I can't think of a single trait that's exclusive to only one gender. Thanks to transpeople, even biological traits (such as giving birth) are no longer the domain of only one sex or the other.

[lawfulevil]

Is "manly vibes" supposed to mean something? People online assume I'm male all the time, doesn't bother me. Why should it? I don't care if you think I'm male, female, Martian, a platypus, or a genetically enhanced hyper-intelligent ferret. I kinda doubt anyone else here does either, so lay off the snide comments, I'm too tired to shampoo the rug.

[Guest Anonymous]

Ha! I get you. You're afraid my definition won't match you and you'll feel insecure about your own manliness. Ok. Well, let's see. Do you look like Matthew McCaunaghy? Bod and face?

[valsa]

Is "manly vibes" supposed to mean something? People online assume I'm male all the time, doesn't bother me. Why should it? I don't care if you think I'm male, female, Martian, a platypus, or a genetically enhanced hyper-intelligent ferret. I kinda doubt anyone else here does either, so lay off the snide comments, I'm too tired to shampoo the rug.

Shot in the dark, I think I was supposed to throw some "feminazi"-esque fit about being mistaken for a guy. Because all women who don't want to be treated like perpetual children or damsels-in-distress must hate men :roll:

[Jezebel]

Why should anyone be able to define what it means to be a woman or man?

I spent years feeling out of sort because people kept telling me what a woman should feel or think, yet I often didn't fit that mold. As I've gotten older, I've become more angry at being told what box I should fit into.

I've never fit into any of the "female" boxes other people have told me I need to squeeze myself into in order to be a "real woman." Even as a small child, the gender roles I was expected to conform to made no sense at all.

None of this makes me defective, or less of a woman. It does not make me "unwomanly"--that's impossible. Simply by virtue of being a woman, I am "womanly." That's not something anyone can take away from me, no matter how stridently they insist otherwise.

So, all that said, I'm the very last person to try defining and imposing standards of "manliness." You're male? You're a man? You're automatically "manly." End of story. There's nothing to prove.

I don't fit into any boxes, and resent attempts by others to force me into one. I assume most men feel the same way. So: no boxes. Actual human beings are so much more complicated than any set of culturally-mandated standards based on biological sex. We are so much more than our genitals. And if I have a "personal standard" of manliness when it comes to picking who I want to be with, it's that he embraces the fullness of his existence as a human being. I don't want a man who lives in someone else's box, terrified to leave it lest he be thought "unmanly," and willing to defend it even as it stifles and limits him.

[treemom]

Omg valsa. I love you. I just read this whole thing with a wtf scrunched up face until I got to the pastry comment,

Also I love fry. My son dressed up like him with a brain slug my mom knitted one year for Halloween. That sentence needed some sort of commas or something.

[StarrieEyedKat]

Is that why she's thinks I'm a man? She's stupider than I thought because, by that logic, she's a pastry.

Yeah, I feel the need to nominate this statement for some awesome award. I can just picture you and Emmie standing next to each other, giving someone the side-eye, muttering about why they think you're a guy.

[emmiedahl]

I wish I knew a lot of you in real life. We could have more loling and eyerolling in person. I feel weird writing lol and lmao so much on this forum, but you all do make me laugh for realz several times a day. Often while drinking beverages that unfortunately are not meant for keyboards and computer screens.

[Swamptribe]

Ok, maybe it's the wine typing here...Ya know the ole canard about how men don't mind lesbians because they always picture themselves in the middle of the lesbian sandwich????

[Guest Anonymous]

There's an extremely sweet story about the couple in the picture here:

http://www.khon2.com/news/local/story/G ... Gp-IA.cspx

My favorite part? They were apparently friends that fell in love while one of them was deployed, and that was their first kiss.

A Marines homecoming photo from a Hawaii base has gained worldwide attention -- two men kissing, just months after "Don't Ask Don't Tell" was repealed.

The picture has gone viral from Kaneohe, home of Marine Corps Base Hawaii.

Sgt. Brandon Morgan returned Wednesday from a six-month deployment to Camp Leatherneck, Afghanistan.

There to meet him was his friend of four years, Windward Oahu artist Dalan Wells -- a friendship that had turned to a long-distance love during the deployment. This was their first kiss.

"We couldn't talk, I can barely talk now, his hands went numb, my legs were shaking, our first kiss after just knowing how we felt about each other,†Morgan said.

The arrival had come unexpectedly early. Wells made it to the base ahead of other invited friends.

"I’m so glad I got him a lei, I almost didn't have time,†Wells said. “I stopped at a Safeway, grabbed him just a carnation and pikake lei. One friend finally did make it, Dave Lewis and he's the one who took the photo there. He was able to get to the hangar just in time, because we were too happy to be able to take picture."

A picture they say they never intended to become recognized worldwide in just a few days.

“It's been overwhelming honestly,†Morgan said. “I didn't expect this. We didn't do it for the fame at all.â€

It started when Morgan posted the photo to his own Facebook page.

“A friend asked can we post it on the Gay Marines Facebook page,†Wells said, “and we said, oh sure, there's only 1,000 people on that. It wasn't going to be a very big deal, but then everybody started sharing it. So then that turned into 415 shares the first day, then now it's in the thousands, now it's everywhere."

Tens of thousands have “liked†or shared the photo, thousands have commented.

“Most of the responses have been like oh my god I can't believe you're in love, congratulations,†Morgan said. “My mom's happy that I’m finally happy, my parents are ecstatic.â€

Most comments so far are supportive and positive, others sharply negative.

“When the photo first hit somebody called my mother and said what did you do to raise your son so wrong?†Morgan said. “What mistakes of a mother did you do to let your son turn out to be homosexual? First of all, nothing -- you're either born this way or you're not. Second, my mom was the greatest mother I could ever ask for, sacrificing everything for my sister and myself, sometimes not even eating to make sure that we had a meal, and to say that to my mother, and to make her cry, I'm glad I didn't know who it was.â€

“There are those who are going to take this the wrong way,†Morgan added, “the person who called my mother, I can only hope no one does anything drastic or too crazy but I am not afraid. I lived my whole life in fear, I don't fear them anymore.â€

Other comments have in the middle, people saying they don’t mind a welcome-home photo but don't want to see so much public display of affection, gay or straight.

“My friend Sgt. Thomas Stivers, he came home and his picture was in the Hawaii Marine (http://www.mcbh.usmc.mil/news/Feb24A12.pdf) of him kissing his wife and holding his newborn baby that was just born a few days ago,†Morgan said. “His picture is no different than mine. It is a homecoming picture. Gay, straight, lesbian no matter who you are, love is love.â€

"That hangar was full of people, and nobody was making any inappropriate comments, nobody was staring,†Wells said. “For the Marine Corps, I was really, really proud that it had come that far. It was just another couple coming home."

Less than a year ago when the “Don't Ask Don't Tell†policy was still in effect, such a kiss in that venue, and a shared photo could have brought severe consequences. Today, the climate is very different.

“All my superiors, my staff sergeants, my gunnery sergeants, my lieutenants, my officers, my captains, they're all very ecstatic and very happy that I had somebody to come home to,†Morgan said. “Again, gay or straight, does not matter.â€

A spokesperson for Marine Corps Base Hawaii said in a statement: "It's your typical homecoming photo."

But the public reaction has been anything but typical.

“We were actually cornered in the supermarket this afternoon, like you're the famous guys aren't you? We were at the commissary on base, we were just trying to get milk,†Morgan said.

“Before we even went to bed that night we were like oh look, 50 comments, that's crazy, I never have a photo with 50 comments on it,†Wells said, “and then the next day it went from 50 to 15,000.â€

"Everybody says, oh you're a hero," Morgan said. “I'm not a hero. The heroes are the ones that paved the way for me, to allow me to do this. It's people who fought in Congress and who fought to have equal rights who allowed me to even do this. They've always been my heroes. We haven't fought for more rights or better rights than others, we fought for equal rights, and now we have them.â€

Though they say the photo wasn’t intended as a message, they say they hope it will inspire or reassure others.

“I’m a very shy, private person,†Wells said, “so the only reason I would even be doing something this crazy (posting the photo publicly) is because of that, and if this saves one kid who says, you know look at this guy, he went and joined the Marine Corps, his life is great, then maybe that will give them the courage to hang on, and make it another day.â€

“He's been able to be who he is his whole life, I haven't,†Morgan said. “I've gone through a lot of struggles finding out who I was and what I wanted, that I have the courage to be who I know I was. It does get better, it does get better. No matter who you are, no matter where you are, heroes are made when you make a choice, know this.â€

[Three and Done]

Two very brave young men. Beautiful story.

[StacyW]

I took this test from the BBC to determine where my brain fell on the male/female spectrum and I was way into the male side. I think if the test had asked how many pairs of shoes I own I would have regained some ground on the female side

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/ ... okie.shtml

[browngrl]

It is not my place to decide is a male is manly or not. However, as far as I am concerned personally:

If you have XY chromosomes AND: you believe that women are created to submit to men and to ONLY be suited to be homemakers AND/OR if you think that a strong woman in a leadership role somehow makes you less OR if you can not imagine being lead by a woman or working as an equal partner with a woman, THEN you are not very manly in my books. In fact a man like that seems kind of weak and insecure and definitely not worth my time.