Oprah visits Hasidic Jews SUNDAY 2/12 9pm

[Terrie]

I'm not sure I understand what youre asking. The Hasidim are VERY extreme. Theyre far past modern orthodox.

It's more a general question raised in my mind by this thread, then specifically about the Hasidim. Basically, outside of the more "total lifestyle" groups, can you only be observant during the most important holidays, but still be considered, say, Modern Orthodox? I guess I'm wondering where along the spectrum the equivalent of "Christmas/Easter Christians" shows up.

[CustardTart]

I'm not Jewish, but I'm very interested in fundamentalist life, and I'm lucky, it's been in my face all my life because of where I live.

Anyway, you may be interested in this:

770live.com

It's live, 27/7 webstream from the biggest Chabbad house in the world, in Crown Heights Brooklyn. I'm obsessed, but I have it on continuously on one of my home computers. And yes, there are men there even in the middle of the night. If you watch in the middle of the night and it looks empty with the lights dimmed, keep watching, the scanning cameras will catch men there praying, reading, hanging out, whatever. At all other times of the day, it's continuously packed.

An interesting thing to note, this Hassid group, being Chabbad, allows people (strangers)to enter the building as part of their outreach. Women use the upper floor.

One more thing. This is/was the home of the great Rebbe Menachem Schneersohn, who is condisered the Messiah (moshiach) by this branch of Jewery.

[Buzzard]

It's more a general question raised in my mind by this thread, then specifically about the Hasidim. Basically, outside of the more "total lifestyle" groups, can you only be observant during the most important holidays, but still be considered, say, Modern Orthodox? I guess I'm wondering where along the spectrum the equivalent of "Christmas/Easter Christians" shows up.

Judaism spans the spectrum the same as all other religions. You have jews who eat pork and dont know where a temple is (but will scream if you say theyre not jewish) all the way to the other extreme. There are some that respect the culture and the history and keep only traditions. My mother wouldnt step foot in a temple but will be damned if her seder plate isnt perfect. To some its the tradition thats important and not god.

[xDreamerx]

So having watched both episodes I think she did a good propaganda piece. Women are worshiped, they're all happy, everything is awesome. I have no ill will towards the hasidim, but I think we need to call it what it is, they're extremists. Oprah has a funny way of having emotionally vulnerable people clinging to her every word and presenting this perfect happy life isnt going to help anyone l - the hasidim dont really take applicants (unless you happen to already be a jewish woman).

This. In the second part the women talked around many issues, the role of women being confined to the home, sex and menstruation, homosexuality. They tried to dress it up in pretty, non-threatening sounding language, but they are the same as other fundies in many ways. They are very patriarchal and believe in the subordination of women, despite the women trying to dance around the issue.

[Buzzard]

Exactly. Oh yes, the men HAVE to wear the traditional stuff because theyre men but I GET to wear this hot ass wig and long sleeves in 90+ degree weather! I GET to wear makeup... um... yeah...

To each his own. If youre happy and thats the life you choose then god bless. I'm impressed that the women are as educated as they are and I do think theyre an example to our ATI fundies that you can allow people out of the cage without becoming heathen. BUT... their lives arent perfect happy smilie all the time.

[xDreamerx]

I also wondered about the emotional component of their marriages. They claim that restrictions on sex lead to better communication. I could see that, to an extent. But they don't allow any kind of physical affection to be displayed between married couples in public. Not even a pat or holding hands. If everything is kept behind closed doors, how do they learn the nuances of intimacy? How do their children learn to model relationships?

[Buzzard]

I also wondered about the emotional component of their marriages. They claim that restrictions on sex lead to better communication. I could see that, to an extent. But they don't allow any kind of physical affection to be displayed between married couples in public. Not even a pat or holding hands. If everything is kept behind closed doors, how do they learn the nuances of intimacy? How do their children learn to model relationships?

And theres so much to touch - just for reassurance. So your husband has a heart attack... can you hold his hand in the hospital? How about a "josie" moment - can you offer comfort in the hospital? There are times in life where holding hands is needed.

[chiccy]

It's more a general question raised in my mind by this thread, then specifically about the Hasidim. Basically, outside of the more "total lifestyle" groups, can you only be observant during the most important holidays, but still be considered, say, Modern Orthodox? I guess I'm wondering where along the spectrum the equivalent of "Christmas/Easter Christians" shows up.

Can you be considered Modern Orthodox if you're not observant? --Not really. Someone with a MO family who is not observant themselves would be considered "off the derech," derech meaning "way" or "path." With few exceptions, people who don't follow the law and observe the holidays are not considered part of any sub-grouping of Orthodoxy, including Modern Orthodox. Since people tend to know each other's business in Jewish communities (a lot can be told about you based on your house, your kitchen, how often you show up at services, etc.) it's hard to disguise that one isn't practicing. Plus, there is a ton of stuff you have to know simply to fit in at all in an Orthodox community, and most people don't learn it without years of practice.

That isn't to say that there isn't any variance in observance level within particular communities. There is some flexibility, particularly within Modern Orthodoxy. For example, a minority of MO women do not cover their hair or will wear pants. In addition to the basic law, there are chumras (kind of "extra-credit" laws) which people choose whether to observe. But as far as very basic things like taharat ha'mishpacha (abstaining from sex for 2 weeks per month and going to the mikvah), kashrus (eating a strictly kosher diet), shabbos (not writing or using money or electricity--as well as avoiding many other prohibited activities--on Friday evening and Saturday), and observing the holidays...pretty much all Orthodox Jews do them attentively.

Conversely, within the Conservative, Reform, and other movements, there is a *ton* of flexibility regarding observance level. You can be a part of a Conservative congregation and do basically nothing except attend services a few times a year (and circumcise your babies, have a Jewish wedding, and probably bar/bat mitzvah your children). Or do even less. Some Conservative families I know don't believe in God, but do it for tradition's sake only. Reform Judaism is just as loose or looser. Your average "Christmas and Easter Christian"-type Jew probably belongs to a Conservative or Reform congregation and goes to services about as often as the corresponding Christian.

[2xx1xy1JD]

It's more a general question raised in my mind by this thread, then specifically about the Hasidim. Basically, outside of the more "total lifestyle" groups, can you only be observant during the most important holidays, but still be considered, say, Modern Orthodox? I guess I'm wondering where along the spectrum the equivalent of "Christmas/Easter Christians" shows up.

The more strict/extreme the group, the less room for a range of observance.

There is a slight range within even Satmar (the strictest Hasidic sect), but it's in minor things like style of wig, or having a secret stash of Friends DVDs.

There are some who go through the motions in their communities, but will break rules in private. A divorced friend had a fetish for dating women like this.

You'll see more of the range in the left-wing Modern Orthodox, the "traditional" and the outreach (Chabad and Aish) communities. Left-wing Modern Orthodox interprets the rules in more liberal ways, but they are often still quite observant of those rules. Traditional Jews will often go to an Orthodox synagogue...at least twice a year. They are comfortable with the Orthodox services, the non-Orthodox synagogues don't feel quite right or comfortable to them, they will respect tradition and always be home for candle-lighting and dinner on Friday night - but go out clubbing afterward. This is quite common among Sephardic and Israeli Jews. Outreach groups follow ideologies which are often to the right of Modern Orthodox, but welcome everyone so you have a huge range of observance within these congregations.

The equivalent of Christmas/Easter Christians, btw, would be Rosh Hashana/Yom Kippur/Passover Jews. According to one study I saw, at least 80% of Jews attend a Passover seder.

[Beeks]

I haven't watched this yet but my mom watched it and was gushing about how spiritual and wonderful they all seemed. Not sure if this is good or bad....lots of orthodox groups are perfectly wonderful but it seems sort of disingenuous to do a show about ortho Jews and not cover the more sinister sides. Then I figure, meh, enough people hate Jews already, maybe we don't need any more bad press? I dunno.

[CustardTart]

I haven't watched this yet but my mom watched it and was gushing about how spiritual and wonderful they all seemed. Not sure if this is good or bad....lots of orthodox groups are perfectly wonderful but it seems sort of disingenuous to do a show about ortho Jews and not cover the more sinister sides. Then I figure, meh, enough people hate Jews already, maybe we don't need any more bad press? I dunno.

As a life long liver-among-the-orthodox-Jews, my opinion is that there is no sinister side at all. Well, if you don't count the bad apples that are in every group of people. Generally, the Hasids are very good, decent, polite, friendly people that truly live their spirituality and culture every single day.

My matron of honor at my wedding was a Hasidic (Lubavitch) wig-wearing, long-skirted childhood friend. At her wedding, this was 20 years ago, I was so envious that she got to go to the mikvah bath before her wedding, and all her female family and friends sang songs of joy to her when she came out. It was a moving and beautiful ritual.

As for how women are treated, from my experience among them, they are treated like queens by their husbands. They do not belong to their husbands; they belong to God, and their husbands acknowledge this. If a woman decided she was going to get bold and raise her skirt a little shorter, her husband knows it is between her and Hashem (God).

Sexually, yes they are both virgins at marriage, but they get extensive lessons in each other's anatomies, functions and responses. They don't have the experience on the wedding night, but they do know what to do and how to do it, and in many ways. They follow the intimacy rule that a man has to please his wife to fulfillment before he can be fulfilled.

During the Niddah period (menstruation), they follow the Old Testaments teaching of abstaining from intercourse during that week and for the week after. They don't touch, even to pass her husband a glass of water so as to not stir his desires. And he won't tell her he loves her during that time to avoid stirring he desires. It works both ways. It's a lot different from the fundies that blame defrauding on women. In the Hasid community, tempting works on both sides, both are responsible. I admire that very much. It is said that a woman can refuse her husband sex if she doesn't feel well, but a man cannot refuse his wife sex.

They deeply believe the wife is the heart of the home and the goal is to make her happy so that she can be free in heart to give of herself to her family.

One more thing, men and women DO leave the community for less orthodox lives, and they get no lashing from the community. They do get it from their parents, though, and I can understand that as I'm a religious Catholic and I would be upset if my child rejected the Christ-centered life I've brought him up in. But it isn't the end of the world. They can always come back, they aren't shunned. And some do come back. They are called the Balchuva, meaning one who has returned.

They have many children and the mothers take care of the all the children. The other kids help, but in a normal way, not like passing the babies off to a sister-mom which the Christian fundies do. The older children are too busy going to school and are encouraged to to college.

They're wonderful people. The only thing is you never ever touch a single woman if you're a man or touch a single man if you're a woman. It has to do with modesty and simple touching is considered to be too intimate and can lead to lustful thoughts that the bible says is wrong.

The women have a very important role on Shabbos every Friday night, when they light a candle for each member of their family, with their hands fan the smoke to their faces to bring the light into their spirit, and say a prayer to begin the Shabbos dinner. Beautiful.

If I were a Jew, I'd be tempted to investigate if this would be a life I would want to live. It's a beautiful, fun, spiritual life of family, dancing, singing, community, and total immersion in the spirit of God. I love it. So since I'm not a Jew, they graciously allow me to respectfully join them in their shabbos , yom Kippur, etc events. I'm blessed to know these people.

They even have a support group for men and women addicted to porn. No one is ashamed to talk about it, because they all want the same thing, to find ways to be strong enough to not look at porn which they see as a desacration of their husband/wife sexual life.

They do indeed believe in birth control, but they speak to their rabbi about the whys of their situation. 99.9% of the time, the Rebbe gives his blessing for birth control, mostly the Merena IUD. They don't believe in sterilization unless it's for health reasons.

If anyone lives in the Brooklyn NY area and would like to meet some Hasids, let me know, I'll take you around.

edited to correct talk into take.

[Witsec7]

Custard Tart: did you attend your friends wedding? Did they open the mechitza and perform the badeken?

[CustardTart]

Custard Tart: did you attend your friends wedding? Did they open the mechitza and perform the badeken?

Yes indeed I attended. I would have turned myself into Yentle to get into that wedding!

The mechitza was opened for all to witness the badeken. It was beautiful. It's a ritual so the groom can be sure he's getting the right bride, from when Jacob was tricked into marrying Leah instead of Rachel because the bride's face was covered. We also go to see the father-daughter dance, and my friend had to dance with her father through holding handkerchiefs and not skin, since she was a married woman now. After that, the mechitza was closed and men and women celebrated on opposite sides of the room, segregated from the men. At first I thought it was sexist, but then being among the women behind the curtain, I realized the purpose. The men and women could be free to joke with the bride and groom among their own gender about the wedding night and marriage life and just celebrate as crazy as they wanted without having men look at them. It got pretty wild! I LOVED the commraderie among the women. It was very empowering and gave us all a sense that a bunch of women together is a strong thing. In this way you learn to depend on each other as women when you have problems and need women to talk to. It was such a feminist thing!

[CustardTart]

By the way, in case anyone was wondering, the having sex through a hole in the sheet is not true and never true. That myth started back in the early 1900s when gentiles saw "white sheets with a hole in the middle hanging on the clothes lines, and they assumed it was the bed sheet. What those were/are are the white overvestments that men wear under their shirts but over their underclothes. It has a hole to put the head through, like a poncho. It has nothing at all to do with sex.

In fact, it's considered a defilement of the sex act for the body to be covered during sex. You must be skin to skin or else you mock the gift of sexual relations between a man and a woman.

[FaustianSlip]

The biggest divide is Orthodox vs. not. Originally there was only "Judaism" (some people were observant, some weren't, but there was only one basic set of binding rules). Once movements came up to reinterpret some rules or say they should be applied differently in modern life to the point that some don't think you can go that far, or to say that the rules aren't necessarily binding (so, Conservative and Reform)....

I would object to this, if only because Conservative Judaism, as a movement, does hold the mitzvot as binding. How they interpret the mitzvot can differ somewhat (i.e. the infamous driving teshuvah), but the official stance of the Conservative movement is that the laws of the Torah are binding. I know more than a few Conservative folks who are observant to Orthodox standards and would in fact be considered Orthodox, but for the fact that they happen to daven at a Conservative shul that has egalitarian services (although outside the U.S., that's not always standard). But as far as the major three that people always point to when determining whether someone is "frum" or not, namely Shabbos/Yom Tov observance, kashrut and taharat mishpacha (family purity), they're there. I'm aware that there are plenty of people who attend Conservative shuls and do not observe to Conservative standards, so to speak, but the same can be said of many Orthodox synagogues, certainly in Israel, where they're often the only option. But as far as the movement itself is concerned, observance is actually required.

I've davened in communities ranging from Reform to Chabad, and I have mixed feelings about Orthodoxy. There is a lot about Orthodoxy that I find very attractive, and I completely understand why people choose to become Orthodox or convert under Orthodox auspices. The community, the emphasis on Torah, the level of learning and observance are all really inspiring. However, I think it's disingenuous to say that "there is no sinister side." Sure there is- every community has a sinister side, and you only need to look at the crazier things going on in places like Beit Shemesh to see that Orthodox Judaism, when taken to extremes, can have a very ugly side, just like anything else. The attitudes some of these communities take toward converts, toward Jews not of their own religious outlook, toward non-Jews is sometimes... not very kind, and as with any closed community, the options available for people to leave the community are often limited by lack of education and marketable skills (though ironically, it is usually the men who have more problems in this regard, as they're funneled into religious education as early as possible). I'm thinking more here of Haredi communities as opposed to Modern Orthodoxy, but even Modern Orthodoxy has had a pronounced move to the right in the last twenty years or so.

For me, the decision to convert under Conservative auspices had nothing to do with following the mitzvot or considering them binding and everything to do with limitations placed on me due to my gender and religious growth that I felt would be hampered as a result of that. I've heard all of the arguments, for instance, about why women shouldn't read from the Torah or lay tefillin or daven three times a day, but I don't buy them (if only because to my mind, "exempt" doesn't mean "forbidden"). I think Orthodoxy works really well for a lot of people, and I'm glad that it does. But I think that pretending it's some magical wonderland with no problems where everything is peachy keen, all women are treated with the utmost respect, everyone is happy in their role, et cetera is doing it and its adherence a disservice, in a way. This is a real religion with real people who sometimes have real problems. You only have to look at websites like this to see that having a beard and peyos doesn't make you a saint.

[apple1]

So having watched both episodes I think she did a good propaganda piece. Women are worshiped, they're all happy, everything is awesome...

I saw only the first piece.

I had this same reaction - just too ??, I don't know, eager?

[2xx1xy1JD]

Re Conservative Judaism and Orthodoxy:

I grew up in a traditional non-egalitarian Conservative synagogue, and later became Modern Orthodox-attending-Chabad-synagogue.

What you say is true. While Orthodox like to think that there is an enormous gap between Orthodoxy and other movements, the fact is that it can be hard to tell some of the very observant and traditional Conservative Jews from left-wing Modern Orthodox ones. There are a number of families from my current Chabad synagogue that send kids to the Conservative movement's Camp Ramah in the summer.

Do you find that the Conservative movement places more emphasis on mikvah these days? I first learned about it when my Conservative rabbi gave me To Be a Jew on my Bat Mitzvah, but it was never, ever mentioned by the rabbi, not even when he married us.

[FaustianSlip]

I can really only speak for the communities with which I've been involved, but based on my experiences at my shul in the D.C. area, I think the Conservative movement is emphasizing ritual and traditional observance in general these days. My rabbi gave a phenomenal d'var during High Holy Days about a year and a half ago that boiled down to, "Conservative Judaism isn't intended to be 'the middle ground between Orthodoxy and Reform,' or 'Reform, but with more Hebrew.' Conservative Judaism is deep and scholarly enough to stand on its own, but there has to be some level of engagement. Observance is important, and while there's not an expectation that everyone is going to do everything right away, if you're just hanging out and not engaging at all except on two holidays a year, it probably isn't going to do much for you." I actually deliberately chose that synagogue (and that rabbi as my sponsoring rabbi for conversion) because it had multiple daily minyanim and seemed to place an emphasis on Torah study and ritual participation and encouraged religious growth. I wanted somewhere where I could be free and encouraged to grow in observance, and I think that's becoming more attractive for a lot of people. I also think a lot of younger people are taking a post-denominational route and looking more closely at independent minyanim and chavurot and such.

I can say that when I went to the mikvah after my beit din, the mikvah lady strongly encouraged me to consider adopting taharat mishpacha when the time comes (I'm currently single) and also pointed out that while traditionally the mikvah is there for the whole niddah thing, it's okay to use it to mark other milestones in life, before High Holy Days, et cetera. This is a mikvah located in a Conservative synagogue in D.C. The woman who supervised my immersion was great and very encouraging, and my experience was a really positive one. I've considered going back after my time in China is done, as a sort of marker, but it feels a little crunchy granola to me, so I'm undecided. I suspect I'm a traditionalist at heart. I know of several Conservative shuls/communities that either have their own mikvaot or have worked with neighboring Reform communities to create a mikvah that will be open to non-Orthodox Jews. I suspect part of the drive is due to the need for mikvaot where non-Orthodox conversions can take place, but that's still a relatively small segment of the population, so I'm inclined to think that there's also a new interest in that mitzvah amongst the population at large. For myself, I can't really imagine my conversion being the first and only time I immerse in a mikvah, but obviously this is something that would have to be talked over with a potential spousal unit.

I think people like to divide the denominations because it makes for neat, easy classification, but in my experience, the Jewish world is a continuum more than a series of boxes, and people go back and forth between them as necessary depending on what's going on in their life. Nothing wrong with that- I was absolutely certain in high school that I would pursue a Reform conversion, but after attending Reform services in college, I realized that I needed something more traditional (but less traditional than Chabad, where I also went), gave Conservative Judaism a whirl and found a good fit. I don't assume that that will never change, though, especially because so much can depend on the individual synagogue and community. I had a great time at Chabad in Japan when I lived there, but my local Chabad here just didn't do it for me at all. Instead, I go a couple of hours to a nearby Reform community, when I can make the trip. For myself, I like that there are options.

[ilovetchotchkes]

I've considered going back after my time in China is done, as a sort of marker, but it feels a little crunchy granola to me, so I'm undecided. I suspect I'm a traditionalist at heart. I know of several Conservative shuls/communities that either have their own mikvaot or have worked with neighboring Reform communities to create a mikvah that will be open to non-Orthodox Jews

Do it! you'll love it! I did it before my son was born. Thank you for reminding me too, i have to call the mikveh lady to make an appointment because my husband and I are having a Jewish wedding and I wanna do it before that (we're married legally but don't have a ketubah :( )

I'm Reform and I was going monthly before I was pregnant and I loved it. It helped my emotional stress related to my fertility issues because for me it wasn't "oh i'm rid of the theological cooties" but more like "ok, this is marking a moment in time and last month it didn't happen, but maybe it'll be this month". Ironically I got pregnant quicker using the mikveh than the 18 months we tried for my son when I wasn't. :)

[chiccy]

As a life long liver-among-the-orthodox-Jews, my opinion is that there is no sinister side at all. Well, if you don't count the bad apples that are in every group of people. Generally, the Hasids are very good, decent, polite, friendly people that truly live their spirituality and culture every single day.

My matron of honor at my wedding was a Hasidic (Lubavitch) wig-wearing, long-skirted childhood friend. At her wedding, this was 20 years ago, I was so envious that she got to go to the mikvah bath before her wedding, and all her female family and friends sang songs of joy to her when she came out. It was a moving and beautiful ritual.

As for how women are treated, from my experience among them, they are treated like queens by their husbands. They do not belong to their husbands; they belong to God, and their husbands acknowledge this. If a woman decided she was going to get bold and raise her skirt a little shorter, her husband knows it is between her and Hashem (God).

Sexually, yes they are both virgins at marriage, but they get extensive lessons in each other's anatomies, functions and responses. They don't have the experience on the wedding night, but they do know what to do and how to do it, and in many ways. They follow the intimacy rule that a man has to please his wife to fulfillment before he can be fulfilled.

During the Niddah period (menstruation), they follow the Old Testaments teaching of abstaining from intercourse during that week and for the week after. They don't touch, even to pass her husband a glass of water so as to not stir his desires. And he won't tell her he loves her during that time to avoid stirring he desires. It works both ways. It's a lot different from the fundies that blame defrauding on women. In the Hasid community, tempting works on both sides, both are responsible. I admire that very much. It is said that a woman can refuse her husband sex if she doesn't feel well, but a man cannot refuse his wife sex.

They deeply believe the wife is the heart of the home and the goal is to make her happy so that she can be free in heart to give of herself to her family.

One more thing, men and women DO leave the community for less orthodox lives, and they get no lashing from the community. They do get it from their parents, though, and I can understand that as I'm a religious Catholic and I would be upset if my child rejected the Christ-centered life I've brought him up in. But it isn't the end of the world. They can always come back, they aren't shunned. And some do come back. They are called the Balchuva, meaning one who has returned.

They have many children and the mothers take care of the all the children. The other kids help, but in a normal way, not like passing the babies off to a sister-mom which the Christian fundies do. The older children are too busy going to school and are encouraged to to college.

They're wonderful people. The only thing is you never ever touch a single woman if you're a man or touch a single man if you're a woman. It has to do with modesty and simple touching is considered to be too intimate and can lead to lustful thoughts that the bible says is wrong.

The women have a very important role on Shabbos every Friday night, when they light a candle for each member of their family, with their hands fan the smoke to their faces to bring the light into their spirit, and say a prayer to begin the Shabbos dinner. Beautiful.

If I were a Jew, I'd be tempted to investigate if this would be a life I would want to live. It's a beautiful, fun, spiritual life of family, dancing, singing, community, and total immersion in the spirit of God. I love it. So since I'm not a Jew, they graciously allow me to respectfully join them in their shabbos , yom Kippur, etc events. I'm blessed to know these people.

They even have a support group for men and women addicted to porn. No one is ashamed to talk about it, because they all want the same thing, to find ways to be strong enough to not look at porn which they see as a desacration of their husband/wife sexual life.

They do indeed believe in birth control, but they speak to their rabbi about the whys of their situation. 99.9% of the time, the Rebbe gives his blessing for birth control, mostly the Merena IUD. They don't believe in sterilization unless it's for health reasons.

If anyone lives in the Brooklyn NY area and would like to meet some Hasids, let me know, I'll take you around.

edited to correct talk into take.

I think this is a beautiful description of many aspects of Hasidism. In my experience, everything you said is true of the more liberal Hasidic groups, such as Lubavitch. However, I think there is more of a "dark side" when you look at the more conservative Hasids like Satmar, Ger, etc. In your comments on the "sex through a hole in the sheet" myth, you said that in fact all clothes are removed for sex. This is not true in Ger, where only the relevant body parts are supposed to be exposed during the act (which is also only supposed to take place once a month.) It sounds extreme, and there is not really any way of knowing to what extent people actually follow these things, but those are the rules.

There are many groups in which you would be ostracized for the community for leaving or even shortening your skirt. I have read numerous stories about the amount of pettiness and judgment in some of these communities. Even having the wrong color tablecloth can be a problem. Everyone is worried about everything for the sake of their children's shidduchim and their own reputations. In Israel, there is even outright violence within and between communities when there are disagreements with respect to Zionism or religious law. Lubavitch has struck a really nice balance between being "in the world" and not "of it"; between being accepting and righteous...but I don't think the same can be said for all Hasids.

[FaustianSlip]

Do it! you'll love it! I did it before my son was born. Thank you for reminding me too, i have to call the mikveh lady to make an appointment because my husband and I are having a Jewish wedding and I wanna do it before that (we're married legally but don't have a ketubah :( )

I will definitely consider it- though it's a little more than a year off at this point. And mazel tov on the wedding!

[emmiedahl]

I am very familiar with Lubavitch and Satmar, but I had to look up the Ger. I found this article that says it is a sin to have sex with your spouse? Or any romantic attachment to them? I hope this is a poor representation, otherwise the Ger must be miserable. http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/week-s-e ... n-1.412153

[chiccy]

I am very familiar with Lubavitch and Satmar, but I had to look up the Ger. I found this article that says it is a sin to have sex with your spouse? Or any romantic attachment to them? I hope this is a poor representation, otherwise the Ger must be miserable. http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/week-s-e ... n-1.412153

Yeah, they're pretty extreme. From my understanding, some Ger communities are more liberal with regards to the sex laws than others....not to mention that there are probably many couples who do things their own way. But the Kommandants get in the way of that. Some sources I have read say that you have to have permission from your Kommandant to have sex with your wife more than once a month.

It seems that other Hasidic groups have pretty messed-up attitudes about sex, too, including Satmar. (If I had to guess I would say that Lubavitch is the exception. I think much of CustardTart's analysis applies well to Lubavitch, but not so well to more conservative Hasidic groups.*) According to a book I read, the boys in Satmar got all of their sex education by jerking each other off in yeshiva, to the point where it often became strange for them to be aroused by a woman after they married. A Satmar boy was killed by his father--and his penis cut off with a jigsaw--when he was caught masturbating. This kind of very sad thing. I'm just saying this to temper the romantic view of Hasidim expressed by CustardTart, which I think only applies to some groups.

*Another thing is education; it is true that (Jewish) college is acceptable for Lubavitchers, but it is not in most other Hasidic groups that I know of. I would guess that most Hasidic kids get as bad of a secular education as many of the homeschooled fundies we talk about, or worse. Many of them cannot speak English well and graduate high school with only minimal English reading skills. They--especially the boys--do work hard academically, but the focus is strongly on Torah studies as opposed to any secular skills.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Ger is out there. Ger is out there from the point of view of other Chassiduses even, including Satmar.

The main thing with them that makes them "out there" (from others' POV) is the restriction on sexual activity or thoughts of any kind. Their former leader made some extra takanot (rules) involving restricting sexual activity, with the main idea being to keep it to a minimum in order to increase people's spirituality or holiness. It's a question of whether those rules were always intended for all members, or only some voluntary restrictions for "advanced" people to take on. But of course with pressure for people to be "advanced" it perhaps spread.

But yeah. So their main thing is that they restrict sexuality and have extra modesty even between a married couple. So generally they won't touch at all, even during the normally permitted time, and they schedule sexual activity, having less than "usual" (they're the ones for whom it's supposed to be "Mikvah night and Friday night"). They are the one group that apparently prefers for people to remain at least partly clothed during sex. And, they are among the most extreme prohibitors of looking at women (though they're not alone on that part).

There's been a thread about them recently on iShtetl, also there's some threads on Failed Messiah.

[Cannelle]

I've read a few books about different sects of Hasidim, and what I took away from them was this: it's very one-size-fits-all. A lot of people love it and find it a very deeply spiritually fulfilling way of life. And that's great. But not everyone does, and if you're one of those people who don't fit into that one-size-fits-all, and you're supposed to wear it anyway, life can be anywhere from slightly uncomfortable to extremely miserable. Pretty much like any other kind of strict fundamentalism.