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Oprah visits Hasidic Jews SUNDAY 2/12 9pm


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Hopefully I can phrase this question right...

Do Jewish folks (or does Jewish Tradition) have a different understanding of what marriage means than current "secular/worldly" belief? I was thinking about the sexual restrictions and how one can't even touch at certain time and how that could be difficult (to put it mildly) if there was a death or trauma. Are the folks going through those difficulties supposed to get their strength/support not from their spouse alone, but from the community? Say a woman goes through a miscarriage and can't be touched by her husband...she could be comforted and cared for by other women, though, right?

I guess I'm just thinking that in the modern view, our spouses are *everything* to us. But maybe there's an idea that our communities are supposed to support us, not just the spouse by himself/herself?

I could be talking out of my ass here, I'll admit :) I was just thinking that the touch restrictions don't seem *quite* as heartless/bad/whatever when people are viewed as part of a community, not just as part of a couple (if that makes any sense at all).

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Hopefully I can phrase this question right...

Do Jewish folks (or does Jewish Tradition) have a different understanding of what marriage means than current "secular/worldly" belief? I was thinking about the sexual restrictions and how one can't even touch at certain time and how that could be difficult (to put it mildly) if there was a death or trauma. Are the folks going through those difficulties supposed to get their strength/support not from their spouse alone, but from the community? Say a woman goes through a miscarriage and can't be touched by her husband...she could be comforted and cared for by other women, though, right?

I guess I'm just thinking that in the modern view, our spouses are *everything* to us. But maybe there's an idea that our communities are supposed to support us, not just the spouse by himself/herself?

I could be talking out of my ass here, I'll admit :) I was just thinking that the touch restrictions don't seem *quite* as heartless/bad/whatever when people are viewed as part of a community, not just as part of a couple (if that makes any sense at all).

For those that observe the niddah (no contact when there's bleeding and for 7 days after) rules, it's pretty common for family and female friends to provide support. This is especially true during and after birth.

From a personal POV - I love my family, but when I was dealing with either birth or miscarriage I wanted my husband, and only my husband. In fact, my sister and I had only one line in our birth plans: we wanted our mother (and other family members) to stay in the waiting room until after the birth! We abstain from actual sex during the niddah time, but it would have been very, very difficult for me to cope with no physical contact at all during those times. We take the lenient view that (a) touch isn't really sexual at those times and (b) it may be okay if it's really necessary for someone's well-being.

I do have a friend from more of a non-Hasidic background who surprised me by admitting that his marriage really started to go downhill after the birth of their child, when his wife clearly resented the rules against touching.

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I think much of CustardTart's analysis applies well to Lubavitch, but not so well to more conservative Hasidic groups.*)

A Satmar boy was killed by his father--and his penis cut off with a jigsaw--when he was caught masturbating.

Yes, you're right. I only have personal experience with Lubavitch.

And holy eff!!!!

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Someone over at ima mother has linked up all the videos in a post (handy place to watch the video for those of us... WITHOUT TV):

imamother.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=176648

Plenty of books and no TV in my house too, and I'm secular. Of course I do watch my share of videos on the internet.

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Someone over at ima mother has linked up all the videos in a post (handy place to watch the video for those of us... WITHOUT TV):

imamother.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=176648

Plenty of books and no TV in my house too, and I'm secular. Of course I do watch my share of videos on the internet.

Thank you!!!

Just curious, are any FJ'ers members at Imamother? My friends and I tried to sign up awhile ago, but they do a fairly thorough screening to make sure only frum married women are on their site. We didn't feel like faking our way through those hoops, but now and then I still sort of wish I were a member so I could see the private sections.

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I've never tried. What kind of screening? Like answering questions?

Yeah. So initially they ask a really basic question about Judaism that we were able to answer (forget what it was; something about holidays I think), but then they send a longer survey asking what community you're in, how long you've been married and other personal questions...and, IIRC, some nitty-gritty questions about married halacha that we couldn't answer. I'm sure that with enough research effort and willingness to lie, anyone could get in, but they do make it hard enough to deter people with a casual interest like us.

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No, I'm not a member. I would possibly be able to answer the questions (if you have some background, you can google) but they want to know WHAT community you belong to, what shul you belong to, etc. Which I'm not prepared to answer, because again, even if you can find an answer (which you probably can, if you just find someone who's open about all of it on a blog somewhere and basically just copy their data so it's guaranteed consistent) but if someone then asks when do I see you? well... I don't want to impersonate someone in a forum that expects active communication, I just want to sit at the table across the room and eavesdrop to pick up on language :D

There's enough interesting things on the public threads, though I do have to admit sometimes when a thread gets good it will be moved to a private area and then, well... it would be nice to read the rest. Occasionally there are threads where people clutch the pearls and worry that "just ANYONE can be reading this!!!" and I have to think, yeah, if only you knew...

Usually for any sort of lurking to learn about an interesting community of any kind very different from myself I have a policy of not making an account if at all possible because I never want to post, only read.

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Links to more web videos up at ima mother: imamother.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=176644

These are various "love and marriage" topics, including a visit to the mikvah.

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We also go to see the father-daughter dance, and my friend had to dance with her father through holding handkerchiefs and not skin, since she was a married woman now.

Wait, so Jewish women can't even touch their own male family members? Why not?

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Wait, so Jewish women can't even touch their own male family members? Why not?

The gartel dance is a wedding tradition; I'm not sure to what extent they actually respect those boundaries in daily life. My guess would be--as with most of these things--that some Hasids do, some Hasids don't.

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http://forums.somethingawful.com/showth ... genumber=1

A very interesting Q&A thread from a Satmar woman who left at age 16.

Edited to add:

"According to 2008 census figures, the village has the highest poverty rate in the nation. More than two-thirds of residents live below the federal poverty line and 40% receive food stamps."

I have to give the Christian fundies credit for not depending on the government for support of their huge families.

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http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3391326&pagenumber=1

A very interesting Q&A thread from a Satmar woman who left at age 16.

Edited to add:

"According to 2008 census figures, the village has the highest poverty rate in the nation. More than two-thirds of residents live below the federal poverty line and 40% receive food stamps."

I have to give the Christian fundies credit for not depending on the government for support of their huge families.

I suspect that Fascinator is not actually an ex-Satmar as claimed, since some of the practices described simply don't exist within Satmar. Deborah Feldman, who had originally referred readers to the thread, subsequently posted this:

http://deborahfeldman.tumblr.com/post/9 ... ce-and-for

That said, I do not know if the poverty rate figures are accurate, but it is true that in the ultra-Orthodox world, there is no taboo on receiving government assistance as there seems to be in parts of the fundie Christian world. Since families are large, secular college is shunned and families often get by on one income, many of the families are working poor and count on various government benefits to make ends meet.

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I'm curious - wouldn't the rules prohibiting sex until seven days after the wife's period have a negative fertility impact for some women ?

It seems like most women ovulate right around that time .. but many women ovulate either earlier or later in their cycles .. how is that handled ?

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I'm curious - wouldn't the rules prohibiting sex until seven days after the wife's period have a negative fertility impact for some women ?

It seems like most women ovulate right around that time .. but many women ovulate either earlier or later in their cycles .. how is that handled ?

No, the rules conveniently allow the couple to be having sex right when she ovulates (which is usually day 13-15.) She goes to mikvah on day 12. It's even a quasi-requirement to have sex the night she comes home from the mikvah, which means sex is mandatory right around ovulation.

*If a woman knew she ovulated earlier than that and they were trying to conceive, a rabbi could give them permission to shorten the 7 days before mikvah. I believe the 7 days are shorter for Sephardis, too.

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I'm curious - wouldn't the rules prohibiting sex until seven days after the wife's period have a negative fertility impact for some women ?

It seems like most women ovulate right around that time .. but many women ovulate either earlier or later in their cycles .. how is that handled ?

For most women, this times the sex to occur right around ovulation. For a minority, however, it results in "halachic infertility", which requires consultations with rabbis and doctors in an effort to find a solution.

NFP is obviously difficult to impossible for Orthodox couples. OTOH, there is no taboo on artificial birth control (if birth control is warranted) or assisted reproduction. This allows creation solutions, including various forms of artificial insemination, if using various loopholes to shorten the no-sex period doesn't work.

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I can really only speak for the communities with which I've been involved, but based on my experiences at my shul in the D.C. area, I think the Conservative movement is emphasizing ritual and traditional observance in general these days. My rabbi gave a phenomenal d'var during High Holy Days about a year and a half ago that boiled down to, "Conservative Judaism isn't intended to be 'the middle ground between Orthodoxy and Reform,' or 'Reform, but with more Hebrew.' Conservative Judaism is deep and scholarly enough to stand on its own, but there has to be some level of engagement. Observance is important, and while there's not an expectation that everyone is going to do everything right away, if you're just hanging out and not engaging at all except on two holidays a year, it probably isn't going to do much for you." I actually deliberately chose that synagogue (and that rabbi as my sponsoring rabbi for conversion) because it had multiple daily minyanim and seemed to place an emphasis on Torah study and ritual participation and encouraged religious growth. I wanted somewhere where I could be free and encouraged to grow in observance, and I think that's becoming more attractive for a lot of people. I also think a lot of younger people are taking a post-denominational route and looking more closely at independent minyanim and chavurot and such.

I can say that when I went to the mikvah after my beit din, the mikvah lady strongly encouraged me to consider adopting taharat mishpacha when the time comes (I'm currently single) and also pointed out that while traditionally the mikvah is there for the whole niddah thing, it's okay to use it to mark other milestones in life, before High Holy Days, et cetera. This is a mikvah located in a Conservative synagogue in D.C. The woman who supervised my immersion was great and very encouraging, and my experience was a really positive one. I've considered going back after my time in China is done, as a sort of marker, but it feels a little crunchy granola to me, so I'm undecided. I suspect I'm a traditionalist at heart. I know of several Conservative shuls/communities that either have their own mikvaot or have worked with neighboring Reform communities to create a mikvah that will be open to non-Orthodox Jews. I suspect part of the drive is due to the need for mikvaot where non-Orthodox conversions can take place, but that's still a relatively small segment of the population, so I'm inclined to think that there's also a new interest in that mitzvah amongst the population at large. For myself, I can't really imagine my conversion being the first and only time I immerse in a mikvah, but obviously this is something that would have to be talked over with a potential spousal unit.

I think people like to divide the denominations because it makes for neat, easy classification, but in my experience, the Jewish world is a continuum more than a series of boxes, and people go back and forth between them as necessary depending on what's going on in their life. Nothing wrong with that- I was absolutely certain in high school that I would pursue a Reform conversion, but after attending Reform services in college, I realized that I needed something more traditional (but less traditional than Chabad, where I also went), gave Conservative Judaism a whirl and found a good fit. I don't assume that that will never change, though, especially because so much can depend on the individual synagogue and community. I had a great time at Chabad in Japan when I lived there, but my local Chabad here just didn't do it for me at all. Instead, I go a couple of hours to a nearby Reform community, when I can make the trip. For myself, I like that there are options.

Faustian Slip, I recently heard about a book that might interest you (haven't read it yet). It is historical fiction, about a Jewish community in Shanghai.

The Far Side of the Sky by Daniel Kalla. It is on my reading list. The extent of the Jewish diaspora is really fascinating.

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For most women, this times the sex to occur right around ovulation. For a minority, however, it results in "halachic infertility", which requires consultations with rabbis and doctors in an effort to find a solution.

NFP is obviously difficult to impossible for Orthodox couples. OTOH, there is no taboo on artificial birth control (if birth control is warranted) or assisted reproduction. This allows creation solutions, including various forms of artificial insemination, if using various loopholes to shorten the no-sex period doesn't work.

Or, luckily, Clomid usually delays it by a day or two. There is some leniency too as far as how long your periods are- IF you only bleed for 2 days (not unheard of!) then you can get a leniency from your rabbi as long as you observe the 7 clean days. But thats' one of those things where you're supposed to go to your rabbi and explain the situation.

When I ovulate (a rare occasion) I ovulate late. Around day 18. How do I know this? 1st pregnancy my ultrasound dated a week or so later than the magic wheel, 2nd pregnancy there was no doubt as to when I conceived as um, it was a horrifically busy month, and between my toddler and husband having the stomach flu we only got busy 1x.

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There is some leniency too as far as how long your periods are- IF you only bleed for 2 days (not unheard of!) then you can get a leniency from your rabbi as long as you observe the 7 clean days. .

I'm pretty sure this leniency is much harder to get/much rarer in Orthodox communities. They usually insist on 12 days minimum, and longer if you bleed longer.

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Faustian Slip, I recently heard about a book that might interest you (haven't read it yet). It is historical fiction, about a Jewish community in Shanghai.

The Far Side of the Sky by Daniel Kalla. It is on my reading list. The extent of the Jewish diaspora is really fascinating.

Thanks for the recommendation- I'll have to check it out. The folks in the diaspora really get around- I was up in Harbin a couple of months ago and found out that at one point, it was the largest Jewish community in East Asia. They have two old synagogues, a large Jewish cemetery and a lot of the big hotels and such were at one point founded or run by what our guide called, "Russian Jewish." There's a very good museum there about the Harbin Jewish community; apparently Ehud Barak's grandparents are buried in the Harbin Jewish cemetery. I was pretty shocked that the community there was even bigger than the one in Shanghai, which is the one everyone knows about.

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According to a book I read, the boys in Satmar got all of their sex education by jerking each other off in yeshiva, to the point where it often became strange for them to be aroused by a woman after they married. A Satmar boy was killed by his father--and his penis cut off with a jigsaw--when he was caught masturbating. This kind of very sad thing. I'm just saying this to temper the romantic view of Hasidim expressed by CustardTart, which I think only applies to some groups.

It looks like Deborah Feldman misreported that story. The actual facts involved a 20 yr old man who committed suicide, not a homocide, and the penis was not cut off.

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed ... e-567.html

If the story had been true, failed messiah would have been the first to scream it from the rooftops.

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I live about 20 minutes from KJ. I can tell you all sorts of stories about it. You know you're in KJ when you see the bags of garbage everywhere. Because it's a religious community they don't pay taxes and have to organize their own sanitation, which they don't. It is BEYOND dirty. Because they're encouraged to have lots of children they end up being a target for a lot of politicians, so they make deals with the rebbe. The rebbe then tells the community how to vote and they do everything the rebbe says. Because they have 10+ children and rely on one parent income a lot of them use medicaid and free health services. I know a one ex-KJ members who tell me it's just a cult. He's now an artist at my school and follows orthodoxy.

Funny story. A co-worker of mine was grocery shopping. A KJ member cut her in line and refused to talk to her when she told her that the line started back behind her. When her attempts failed she took a pack of bacon and dropped it in her dairy basket. You can imagine the shock that resulted at having to restock her entire dairy cart because pork was dropped into it.

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I live about 20 minutes from KJ. I can tell you all sorts of stories about it. You know you're in KJ when you see the bags of garbage everywhere. Because it's a religious community they don't pay taxes and have to organize their own sanitation, which they don't. It is BEYOND dirty. Because they're encouraged to have lots of children they end up being a target for a lot of politicians, so they make deals with the rebbe. The rebbe then tells the community how to vote and they do everything the rebbe says. Because they have 10+ children and rely on one parent income a lot of them use medicaid and free health services. I know a one ex-KJ members who tell me it's just a cult. He's now an artist at my school and follows orthodoxy.

Funny story. A co-worker of mine was grocery shopping. A KJ member cut her in line and refused to talk to her when she told her that the line started back behind her. When her attempts failed she took a pack of bacon and dropped it in her dairy basket. You can imagine the shock that resulted at having to restock her entire dairy cart because pork was dropped into it.

That is some seriously creative thinking to combat what sounds like a seriously weird situation. One of my good friends is modern orthodox and she's one of my favorite people in the entire universe, as is her hubs. But I know a lot of Hasidic jews too, via Chabad, and they are an odd bunch.

Also, I went to crown heights to hasid-land. Do you know how stressful it is to be in a crowded building and not be able to squeeze past anyone?

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