Yet another "therapy" to cure the Gay....

[treemom]

If you lived in a state or community that issued ID's not tied to an SS, then yes you could get married. And in some states you can get driver's licenses. But if you were undocumented, I highly doubt you would enter into a courthouse where there is a high likelihood you might be stopped, detained, transferred to ICE and deported. Any community that has the 287(g) agreement deputizes local police officers to act as ICE agents. And any state with a Secure Communities agreement can detain and deport without due process.

I think everyone can agree that no one wins in the oppression Olympics.

You can get married with a passport and it doesn't require a courthouse visit. Nor does getting a drivers license. For the record I support laws that allow anyone to get a drivers license regardless of immigration status, but many people have them regardless. And your marriage in another country? Totally respected here as long as you are straight...even if you are not documented. (although seriously I hate that phrase...I can understand phasing out the legal/illegal, but seriously undocumented? )

Like Emmie stated earlier, many immigrants who are not here via legal forms of immigration live pretty average lives day to day.

[treemom]

Actually, in some ways it is accurate

And then Mrs S2004 said "In what ways ? I can't think of any. Primarily because it is impossible to do anything anymore without a state issued I.D., including getting married.

"

So that is what we are responding to. It remains true, in some ways, the argument is accurate. It is not completely accurate and no one on FJ was arguing oppression Olympics. I was responding to the fact that yes, in many cases there are a swath of rights illegal immigrants have that gay citizens don't...It is true, it is accurate.

The same is true in reverse of course, but of course that is a different argument altogether because traditionally in ever country there are different rights afforded to citizens and non-citizens and the type of visa you are on.

[bettertomarry]

I composed a whole response but then deleted it. This whole discussion is pointless. Its the oppression Olympics. There isn't a point in arguing who has it worse in a day-to-day existence. Even doing so belittles people who face discrimination everyday of their lives. I find that the envogue vilification and dehumanization of undocumented workers to be very disturbing.

As to your dislike of 'undocumented', I'm not sure how to respond. I'm not undocumented and am following the guidelines set by Colorlines 'Drop the I-word' campaign. They include the term 'immigrant' as a preferred word, but the people I know prefer undocumented worker. So that is the term I use.

[Witsec7]

My partner and I wear birkenstocks...I didn't know it was part of official lesbiandom. I don't believe in camping though. I must have air conditioning, internet access, and satellite tv.

Birkenstocks are mandatory for all lesbians in Boregonia that live west of the Cascades, camping is an option.

[treemom]

I composed a whole response but then deleted it. This whole discussion is pointless. Its the oppression Olympics. There isn't a point in arguing who has it worse in a day-to-day existence. Even doing so belittles people who face discrimination everyday of their lives. I find that the envogue vilification and dehumanization of undocumented workers to be very disturbing.

As to your dislike of 'undocumented', I'm not sure how to respond. I'm not undocumented and am following the guidelines set by Colorlines 'Drop the I-word' campaign. They include the term 'immigrant' as a preferred word, but the people I know prefer undocumented worker. So that is the term I use.

You don't have to act on my opinion. I just don't think undocumented worker is anymore accurate than illegal immigrant. Some immigrant are legal but are working illegally and some undocumented workers have documents that have expired. It is more complex than a catch phrase.

The problem is only one person said they have it harder or worse, I was responding simply to point out that there are a differences in rights afforded to those who are not under a legal immigration or work status than those who are actually citizens and vice versa. Acknowledging facts doesn't mean one is saying X has it better or worse...they have it different...

As for your little jibe that I am envogue dehumanizing immigrants of unknown status, well fuck you. I actually think that immigration law is fucked..and that the general view that this group of people creates some sort of issue and doesn't pay taxes to be factually inaccurate.

You are reading into statements moral judgements that are simply not there.

[bettertomarry]

I think you're taking personally an argument that was never meant to get personal. I wasn't referring to you when I wrote about dehumanizing immigrants, rather about the media, including the New York Times and the AP, which uses 'illegial' when speaking about undocumented workers. I'm not going to tell someone what they should be called, and I'm choosing to use a term that is used among coalitions in the Boston-area. I'm sorry if you feel the term is incorrect or inaccurate, but that isn't something I'm going to debate.

[Mama Mia]

Far be it from me to play the P.C. police ... but many people do like to have it pointed out if they are using a term that is offensive to a large group of people. "Illegal Immigrant" is a polarizing, derogatory term that is offensive to a large group of people. Just like if your 90 year old great grandma confuses "people of color" with "the coloreds" and doesn't understand what all the uproar is .. sometimes you just don't know what is the least offensive terminology unless someone tells you.

[Wolfie]

Far be it from me to play the P.C. police ... but many people do like to have it pointed out if they are using a term that is offensive to a large group of people. "Illegal Immigrant" is a polarizing, derogatory term that is offensive to a large group of people. Just like if your 90 year old great grandma confuses "people of color" with "the coloreds" and doesn't understand what all the uproar is .. sometimes you just don't know what is the least offensive terminology unless someone tells you.

Are you a legal immigrant? My students will occasionally slip up and discuss in front of me whether they are "legal" or "illegal" so either this is a regional thing, or something you've come up with and decided is offensive.

[emmiedahl]

The Latinos I know use "legal" and "illegal". They prefer that term. Maybe it is regional.

Many have documents, either expired or actually belonging to another person. Also, the illegality *is* the main issue. It is the reason they are at risk in the first place.

I am the one who said that I want to know if I am using a term that marginalizes people. I don't see how this does. I'll ask around in the Latino community just outside my front door, though, to be sure.

[Mama Mia]

Just the first few googles that popped up .. but yes, it is often seen as an offensive term, and no I didn't make it up all by myself

http://civilliberty.about.com/od/immigr ... _undoc.htm

http://www.nahj.org/nahjnews/articles/2 ... rage.shtml

http://www.mediabistro.com/fishbowlla/s ... ien_b40464

You can also go to any number of right-wing anti-immigrant sites that will be in a lather about how the only correct term is "illegal alien" .. however I can't go to those sites without having a seizure so I'm not going there.

Personally, I am a native born citizen, however I have close friends and family who are undocumented.

[Mama Mia]

Here is the campaign that bettertomarry refers to.

http://colorlines.com/drop-the-i-word/

I think we all know how important language is in political or philosophical thinking. The far right does an excellent job of swaying public opinion just by branding terms such as "family values" .. although they do not in actuality seem to value families at all.

Anyway.. I just brought it up because I found the statement made in the original article both inaccurate and pretty obnoxious. The "therapy" described was of course, cruel and ridiculous.

ETA: because I forgot the link

[treemom]

I wasn't trying to say illegal should be used. Instead I was pointing out undocumented worker isn't accurate or anymore PC either. It implies that all immigrants here under unknown immigration status are working without the proper documentation and that isn't always the case. The problem with all these terms is it tries to wrap up immigration issues into a nice tidy package when they aren't. Many of the "undocumented" are actually documented, just not the right documents.

Bettertomarry, You were responding directly to me in the dehumanizing post...so ahem, it seemed obvious to me the comments was meant for me.

[Mama Mia]

My understanding is that the problem with the term "illegal" as a general descriptor is that it is in itself a negative term.. so the connotations will always be negative. The term "undocumented" is of course not always factual - but it is a less derogatory term in general, so the association will not be automatically negative.

As a (rather lame, I know, but my brain is fried from work ) example: You are discussing providing condoms to young women who come in for a pap smear in order to prevent the spread of STD's among women who have more than one sexual partner.

You could say " All sexually active women should have access to free condoms at their appointment " or you could say

" All promiscuous women should have access to free condoms at their appointment".

The term illegal is just a bad term.

[bettertomarry]

Thanks everyone for clarifying what I was trying to say. I think it must be a regional thing. Our Boston-are coalition partners are very involved with the colorlines.com campaign and most people I meet ask us to use the term undocumented. My understanding is that it isn't illegal to be in this country and working without papers, but that it is a civil offense. Colorlines.com can explain much better than I can about their campaign. As a white person born in the United States, I am going to defer the the language my coalition partners ask me to use.

Treemom: I never thought or meant to imply that you were arguing to use 'illegal'. I believe I meant that entire post to be two different paragraphs, and hence two different trains of thoughts. When I spoke about 'dehumanizing', it wasn't directed at you. I simply meant that I find 'dehumanizing' undocumented workers to be permissible right now, in a way that demonizing the BGLTQ community isn't as permissible. This isn't implying that you are demonizing or dehumanizing undocumented worker. But it is this trend that makes me feel, regardless of the legal rights, that the undocumented worker community is much more vulnerable than the BGLTQ community.

[treemom]

The thing is some people who aren't undocumented, just have expired documents also find undocumented to be negative,

Again, my problem is that we are even trying to lump a very complicated issue into one pat saying,

I don't have coalition partners, I simply have my own head and my own heart to answer two, and both tell me that both terms are wrong

(civil offenses are still illegal. Like say sexual harassment, )