Yet another "therapy" to cure the Gay....

[Wolfie]

http://www.reflector-online.com/news/ex ... y43RZgyjna

I'm not worried about the link- they're on our side, but be aware that a short video with audio may play on the side of the page.

[Mama Mia]

Good article .. except the part at the end where the guy says "who would choose to live a life where you have less rights than an illegal immigrant " - really ?!? No, not true.

[holierthanyou]

I snickered at their philosophy of handing out bags of granola to a bunch of lesbians and sending them on a camping trip with the expectation that they will finish the trip hetero. I feel like lesbians are already sway over represented a in the areas of camping and granola crunching... Did they force them to wear Birkenstocks too??

[treemom]

Good article .. except the part at the end where the guy says "who would choose to live a life where you have less rights than an illegal immigrant " - really ?!? No, not true.

Actually, in some ways it is accurate

[Mama Mia]

In what ways ? I can't think of any. Primarily because it is impossible to do anything anymore without a state issued I.D., including getting married.

[treemom]

In what ways ? I can't think of any. Primarily because it is impossible to do anything anymore without a state issued I.D., including getting married.

Lots of non Americans get married here all the time.

But for starters they can make contracts with each other and it would probably be respected by the law. They can not be discriminated against solely on their race (for most places sexual orientation is not a protected class). Their children are less likely to be harassed.

They can visit their spouse and parents in the ICU and make legal decisions for said spouse in all states, in states with common laW marriage they are usually protected by those laws.

It isnt a perfect comparison, but certainly rights straight people take for granted are afforded to immigrants who came without a visa so long as they are straight,

[Wolfie]

In what ways ? I can't think of any. Primarily because it is impossible to do anything anymore without a state issued I.D., including getting married.

A few states allow illegal immigrants to get state IDs. Many of them have ids from their home countries too. (I saw them occasionally used when I worked in retail.) But otherwise they have the rights that Treemom mentioned.

[Mama Mia]

I think you don't really appreciate how much more difficult it has become to function in society without a valid I.D. over the past several years.

As far as harassment -- I think it is pretty similar - hatred towards PEOPLE who are undocumented (particularly if they are evil Mexicans) is pretty high in mainstream America. Just the use of the term "illegal" as a definition of a person is an insult is thrown around constantly.

There are a few states where they can get a valid I.D and therefore participate in many of the rights that might be available , but there are also several states with civil unions or same-sex marriage, and many states where sexual orientation is protected from discrimination.

Also, currently people of differing sexual orientations can't be rounded up and thrown in privately run detention centers for months or years without any access to family.

[StarrieEyedKat]

There are a few states where they can get a valid I.D and therefore participate in many of the rights that might be available , but there are also several states with civil unions or same-sex marriage, and many states where sexual orientation is protected from discrimination.

Yes, but if you get a State I.D. in one state, it is then valid in every other state. No so with same sex marriage.

I don't think anyone is saying it's a perfect analogy, but it does make sense in some ways.

[emmiedahl]

I think you don't really appreciate how much more difficult it has become to function in society without a valid I.D. over the past several years.

As far as harassment -- I think it is pretty similar - hatred towards PEOPLE who are undocumented (particularly if they are evil Mexicans) is pretty high in mainstream America. Just the use of the term "illegal" as a definition of a person is an insult is thrown around constantly.

There are a few states where they can get a valid I.D and therefore participate in many of the rights that might be available , but there are also several states with civil unions or same-sex marriage, and many states where sexual orientation is protected from discrimination.

Also, currently people of differing sexual orientations can't be rounded up and thrown in privately run detention centers for months or years without any access to family.

I live in an area with a huge number of illegal immigrants and they work, buy cars, get married, rent homes, have children, send the children to school, receive health care, and in many cases have state IDs albeit maybe not with their actual identity. Granted, they are doing a lot of this illegally, so I don't know if I would say they have more "rights". But I will say that the daily life of an illegal immigrant family in my area is probably more peaceful and less stigmatized than that of a gay family in my area.

I think the comparison, at the heart of it, is a valid one.

It should be noted that most illegal immigrants do not really choose their lives either, unless you consider survival a choice.

[SamuraiKatz]

I snickered at their philosophy of handing out bags of granola to a bunch of lesbians and sending them on a camping trip with the expectation that they will finish the trip hetero. I feel like lesbians are already sway over represented a in the areas of camping and granola crunching... Did they force them to wear Birkenstocks too??

My partner and I wear birkenstocks...I didn't know it was part of official lesbiandom. :lol: I don't believe in camping though. I must have air conditioning, internet access, and satellite tv.

[holierthanyou]

My partner and I wear birkenstocks...I didn't know it was part of official lesbiandom. :lol: I don't believe in camping though. I must have air conditioning, internet access, and satellite tv.

You better be careful then- you could seriously lose your L card if you ever stopped wearing Birkenstocks. I will pray for your soul.

[bettertomarry]

I will point out, however, that demonizing undocumented workers is acceptable in many places and social circles, including the media. Most mainstream publications, including ones that would be classified as liberal commonly use the term 'illegal' to describe undocumented workers. Derogatory terms that refer to the BGLTQ community aren't generally used in most mainstream publications anymore.

Plus, while a member of the BGLTQ (especially a poc) community might be victimized/ignored by members of law-enforcement, an undocumented worker cannot approach a police officer to report a rape or theft without the very realistic expectation that they will be arrested, turned over to ICE and deported.

[Wolfie]

I think you don't really appreciate how much more difficult it has become to function in society without a valid I.D. over the past several years.

And the vast majority of illegal immigrants have IDs from their home country that are perfectly valid in the US. If we went to another country our passports would be valid too. (and there have been occasions in the US where I used my passport as ID rather than my DL.)

[Wolfie]

It should be noted that most illegal immigrants do not really choose their lives either, unless you consider survival a choice.

This

I've had students tell me some pretty rough stories. I don't think that anybody would take those risks unless it was really bad where they were living before.

[bettertomarry]

But if you entered this country at four, you clearly don't have any form of identification. And there are things you would be allowed to do with a US passport that you wouldn't be able to do with say a French passport.

[Wolfie]

I snickered at their philosophy of handing out bags of granola to a bunch of lesbians and sending them on a camping trip with the expectation that they will finish the trip hetero. I feel like lesbians are already sway over represented a in the areas of camping and granola crunching... Did they force them to wear Birkenstocks too??

Huh? I know lots of people who are granola crunching, camping and birk wearing without being lesbians. I think that you're just noticing that lesbians tend to hang out among the more liberal crowd, which includes the crunchy types, because they aren't accepted in the conservative crowd. (I honestly do not understand log cabin republicans...)

[treemom]

I think you don't really appreciate how much more difficult it has become to function in society without a valid I.D. over the past several years.

As far as harassment -- I think it is pretty similar - hatred towards PEOPLE who are undocumented (particularly if they are evil Mexicans) is pretty high in mainstream America. Just the use of the term "illegal" as a definition of a person is an insult is thrown around constantly.

There are a few states where they can get a valid I.D and therefore participate in many of the rights that might be available , but there are also several states with civil unions or same-sex marriage, and many states where sexual orientation is protected from discrimination.

Also, currently people of differing sexual orientations can't be rounded up and thrown in privately run detention centers for months or years without any access to family.

That does deny the fact that they have rights that many gay people don't. Federally protected ones. Having the right to marriage in one state doesn't mean other states will recognize it,

And gay citizens have rights non citizens don't.

And gay people on a valid visa have rights that people who are not here.

You said there was no comparison, but the truth is there is and of course adults who come here illegally who are not trafficked did have a choice in the matter and are actually breaking immigration law. Gay people aren't.

And I am very sympathetic to immigrants, especially those here without visas. I do not believe in deportation, I think that the visa limits are innaprioriate. I think there are all a valid part of our community.

[treemom]

I will point out, however, that demonizing undocumented workers is acceptable in many places and social circles, including the media. Most mainstream publications, including ones that would be classified as liberal commonly use the term 'illegal' to describe undocumented workers. Derogatory terms that refer to the BGLTQ community aren't generally used in most mainstream publications anymore.

Plus, while a member of the BGLTQ (especially a poc) community might be victimized/ignored by members of law-enforcement, an undocumented worker cannot approach a police officer to report a rape or theft without the very realistic expectation that they will be arrested, turned over to ICE and deported.

I don't think saying illegal is demonizing them.

No one said that they have it easy or even easier...simply that they have rights guaranteed that many gay citizens don't.

[treemom]

I live in an area with a huge number of illegal immigrants and they work, buy cars, get married, rent homes, have children, send the children to school, receive health care, and in many cases have state IDs albeit maybe not with their actual identity. Granted, they are doing a lot of this illegally, so I don't know if I would say they have more "rights". But I will say that the daily life of an illegal immigrant family in my area is probably more peaceful and less stigmatized than that of a gay family in my area.

I think the comparison, at the heart of it, is a valid one.

It should be noted that most illegal immigrants do not really choose their lives either, unless you consider survival a choice.

I think survival is more of a choice than sexual orientation, which simply is without any sort of action on your part. It is a difficult choice, and one that isn't respected...and one that presents difficulty but it is certainly more of a choice than race or sexual orientation.

(not that choice means you should be protected...religion is a choice and I believe in protecting people from discrimination due to religion)

[holierthanyou]

Huh? I know lots of people who are granola crunching, camping and birk wearing without being lesbians. I think that you're just noticing that lesbians tend to hang out among the more liberal crowd, which includes the crunchy types, because they aren't accepted in the conservative crowd. (I honestly do not understand log cabin republicans...)

Yep, I wasn't intending to suggest that most people who like camping and granola are gay. I meant that a disproportionate number of gay women like camping, granola, and birkenstocks. If you took 100 gay women and 100 straight women and polled both on granola, birkenstocks and camping, I would put my life savings on a much higher percentage of gay women loving any one of those (not ALL gay women, but disproportionately more htan straight women).

[treemom]

But if you entered this country at four, you clearly don't have any form of identification. And there are things you would be allowed to do with a US passport that you wouldn't be able to do with say a French passport.

Yes, but you can marry, have contracts that are likely to be upheld by judges, etc.

You can't say vote..

[bettertomarry]

If you lived in a state or community that issued ID's not tied to an SS, then yes you could get married. And in some states you can get driver's licenses. But if you were undocumented, I highly doubt you would enter into a courthouse where there is a high likelihood you might be stopped, detained, transferred to ICE and deported. Any community that has the 287(g) agreement deputizes local police officers to act as ICE agents. And any state with a Secure Communities agreement can detain and deport without due process.

I think everyone can agree that no one wins in the oppression Olympics.

[ElphabaGalinda]

Yep, I wasn't intending to suggest that most people who like camping and granola are gay. I meant that a disproportionate number of gay women like camping, granola, and birkenstocks. If you took 100 gay women and 100 straight women and polled both on granola, birkenstocks and camping, I would put my life savings on a much higher percentage of gay women loving any one of those (not ALL gay women, but disproportionately more htan straight women).

I'm a gay woman who hates granola, birkenstocks and camping, and I thought that your point was funny, simply because people who are so bigoted you would think would be aware of the stereotypes of the people they hate. Incidentally, I don't know any lesbians who are particularly into those things. Perhaps i'm hanging around with the wrong kinds of lesbians ? ;)

[Kelya]

I'm a gay woman who hates granola, birkenstocks and camping, and I thought that your point was funny, simply because people who are so bigoted you would think would be aware of the stereotypes of the people they hate. Incidentally, I don't know any lesbians who are particularly into those things. Perhaps i'm hanging around with the wrong kinds of lesbians ? ;)

I dunno, my lady is very into camping and like, drinking filtered pee and I sort of think I'm hanging with the wrong kind too!