Weird Experience with Religion at work

[Doomed Harlottt]

I don't want to give away too many identifying details but I think I have learned an important lesson about dealing with religious conservatives, based on an experience I am currently having at work.

I didn't think that I had any true religious conservatives in my life, but I got to talking recently with this guy at work about politics and social issues. I've known him a long time and he really seems like the sweetest guy in the world, and he is also extremely intelligent (at least in terms of our work). I've worked closely with him and never had any problems with him. In fact, we have a very positive working relationship, and friendship.

So, during the course of our recent conversations, he has mentioned that he is a religious and social conservative and that his religion informs his politics and I've mentioned that I'm an atheist. We have both discussed the fact that it is really hard to talk about these issues out of fear of causing offense, because questions of religion go to the heart of our identity and our most deeply held beliefs. We have both expressed our deep respect for each other, and the fact that we both are willing to discuss these issues in good faith.

This guy mentioned how he feels attacked and offended by a lot of atheist writing about religion, says that he feels the hostility and hatred dripping off the page, and that a lot of this "new atheist" writing misrepresents the many intelligent people who believe in religion. While I actually have a lot of sympathy for "new atheist" writing (I think they focus on the fringier elements of religion for lots of good reasons), I very tepidly observed that I do think that religion should be subject to criticism. In talking to him, I felt extremely constrained in my ability to express stronger support for the "new atheists" by my desire to be polite and respectful to my friend. Somehow, as much as I believe in vigorous criticism of religion, and as willing as I am to engage in such criticism on line, I can't quite bring myself to do it in person to someone who might feel personally attacked when I express my beliefs. This social idea that religion should always be subject to deference has a stranglehold on me, unfortunately.

PUNCHLINE: SOOO, after I bend over backwards to tiptoe around his sensibilities, my friend brings me a book criticizing atheism, and I agreed to read it. And holy fucking shit -- this book is an utterly vicious screed positing atheists as arrogant assholes who have no morals, posit themselves as gods, lack the ability to form meaningful family connections, hate children, hate the infirm, the sick and the weak, and essentially are little different than Himmler, Goebbels and Hitler. Oh, and apparently we reject God mainly so we can have all the sex we want, not because we actually honestly believe what we believe.

It's so fucking weird. If I didn't know this guy pretty well, I would feel really attacked. But, to him, his "truth" about atheism is so self-evident that he doesn't think giving me this book would be offensive in any way. I think he thinks it will give me food for thought. He doesn't see my beliefs as entitled to the same deference he demands for his beliefs. I should have seen all this coming given all the reading I do about this topic on-line, but I didn't see it coming from him.

[EmmieJ]

He doesn't see my beliefs as entitled to the same deference he demands for his beliefs.

Sounds about right to me.

My first thought when I read your post was, "If he feels so bothered and upset by what certain atheists write about religion, why is he wasting time reading it?" Isn't that a great use of the free will given to believers by God? You can read, or choose not to read. You can turn off a show you don't like. You can decide not to frequent a business establishment because you don't agree with their business practices.

In most situations, I can find common ground with others, no matter our differences. But if I were in your shoes, I'd probably politely refuse any further offers of reading suggestions. The older I get, the harder it is to pretend polite interest in bull shit.

[emmiedahl]

It might not *just* be his religion.

Every person feels that their beliefs are speshul and entitled to deference. The difference lies in whether they extend that to other belief systems.

[debrand]

Excpet for offering my sympathy, I don't have any advice. Maybe you could explain to him why the book is offensive to you and ask if he thinks that you are without morals. Chances are, he has never thought the issue through.

Also, most religious people come across atheist sites when they visit atheist sites. LOL It isn't as if atheist drag them onto those sites. I've found that the religious person doesn't visit the nonreligious site with the intent to learn(although there are exceptions, I'm sure). They want to tell the nonreligious person that they are wrong and need to accept their beliefs. Yet, they don't want to answer hard questions. Of course, they end up getting decimated by even polite atheist.

Tell your friend to stay off atheist sites.

[Witsec1]

I'm curious, what book was it?

You could just say you didn't recognize yourself and the atheists you know in the picture the author paints.

The Hitler thing really gets my goat. Hitler came to power and stayed in power with the support, sometimes the enthusiastic support, of the majority of German Christians.

[Doomed Harlottt]

Ahem. I'm hesitant to name the book just on the off chance he reads here or googles the name of the book in order to find ideas for our discussion. (Yeah, I'm a little paranoid.) I have only just flipped through it to get the gist, but I plan to read it tonight and dissect it more thoroughly.

I will try to write a separate post on it tonight after I'm done. It's a real doozie, with lots of sexism and contempt for young women thrown in.

(Emmiedahl, I agree that thinking one's own beliefs are super-speshul is probably a universal human failing, and one I am subject to myself. But this example seemed so blatant and the screed he gave me particularly nasty.)

[debrand]

Ahem. I'm hesitant to name the book just on the off chance he reads here or googles the name of the book in order to find ideas for our discussion. (Yeah, I'm a little paranoid.) I have only just flipped through it to get the gist, but I plan to read it tonight and dissect it more thoroughly.

I will try to write a separate post on it tonight after I'm done. It's a real doozie, with lots of sexism and contempt for young women thrown in.

(Emmiedahl, I agree that thinking one's own beliefs are super-speshul is probably a universal human failing, and one I am subject to myself. But this example seemed so blatant and the screed he gave me particularly nasty.)

Maybe you could tell us what each word in the title rhymed with or give us part of the title and leave blanks for some of the words. Hey, I like a riddle. :lol:

[doggie]

He feels attacked? he does not realize he attacks others. the irony of that is pretty special. Now you know why you don't take about religion. Not sure what you can do either tell him you can't talk about faith or it may ruin your friendship or tell help Christians have been attacking other beliefs forever and he is doing it now. Tell him that book was an attack on you.

[emmiedahl]

Do you think he is trying to befriend you for conversion reasons? If the book is that ugly, I cannot imagine a real friend giving it to you.

[Terrie]

Honestly, I would be tempted to give him the book back with the statement "I found the descriptions of atheists in here offensive and I really hope you have a better opinion of me than the authors does."

[doggie]

Honestly, I would be tempted to give him the book back with the statement "I found the descriptions of atheists in here offensive and I really hope you have a better opinion of me than the authors does."

I think it would be better to whack him upside the head with it and say now you should feel attacked. :mrgreen:

[Doomed Harlottt]

Taking debrand's excellent suggestion, I will share this:

The name of the book is The Moser Metters, except with an "L" in front of each word, instead of an "M." The premise is that it is written by a young woman in her 20s who worships Hitchens and Dawkins, but she wants to give them suggestions of problems with atheism they should cover up so they can encourage more "converts" to atheism. By the way, she thinks atheism is "totally awesome." Because that is in fact, how the fictional atheist Dawkins-hero-worshipping narrator talks. It's supposed to be funny. The author, who is Catholic, is anti-contraception.

I think the fact that it's supposed to be funny makes my friend think that it's not really as vicious as it is. I really do think he is oblivious because, in his mind (to adopt the tone of the fictional narrator of the book) the fact that atheism "sucks" is "totally, duh."

[kaetrin]

I've never heard of that book, but it sounds like someone doing a bad imitation of C.S. Lewis's Screwtape Letters, in which the narrator is a demon writing letters to a less experienced demon about the best ways to sabotage a Christian.

[Doomed Harlottt]

Yeah, the author says that the format is "loosely inspired" by the Screwtape Letters. I just sat down with a beer and a big bag of chips to go through this thing. I think I'll do a chapter by chapter synopsis in another thread as I go along.

Don't know how interesting it will be but at least I can get it out of my system without having to be polite! (Also, there is a pretty much a doozy in every chapter to keep it interesting.)

[emmiedahl]

lol I just said that on the other thread. Sorry for being Captain Obvious, then.

[AudreyE]

Well, even from the little you've said on the other thread regarding the first chapter of this book, I cannot imagine how insensitive a person would have to be to give it to you under the pretense of having a respectful conversation about your differences. That he is an a-hole is given. The only question is whether he is being obnoxious on purpose or just profoundly stupid. Sounds like the latter.

I think you are well within your rights to tell him that this book is complete garbage and offensive to you. You can say it respectfully, if you like, but he isn't entitled to respect when he goes around being such a stupid, self-centered POS.