Pearls On the Today Show This Morning

[thoughtful]

I am definitely in the "spanking is never needed" camp.

I do think that there are reasons beyond race, cultural and communication problems, and lack of bonding, that may account for the likelihood of the deaths and severe injuries in children who were adopted when older.

Children raised this way from birth are whipped and manipulated from so early on that it's all they know. They may have learned to go limp, to obey in a flash, to keep a smile plastered on. They may even have drunk the kool-aide and feel that all whippings are deserved and they have earned the right to discipline others.

Whatever they do, it is no longer the reaction of a normal, healthy person.

But children who don't enter this nightmare until later in life may run, flinch, stand up for themselves, cry, panic, etc. Whether they already have a strong enough sense of self, and of fairness, to know that they don't deserve this crap, or just are not as well-practiced at not showing pain, there are a thousand innocent reactions they could have that parents like this will misinterpret as "rebellion."

So, part what blows my mind about these stories is that they leave me wondering if the supposedly "damaged" adopted children are actually reacting more like a normal person than the bio kids, and that their normal reaction is what gets them whipped for so long!

We'll never know, I guess. But, to me, it only points up how disgusting Pearl's practices are, and how important it is never to use them on any child.

[Guest Anonymous]

I don't like the Pearls and detest their methods, but some parents will use spanking as a discipline method always.

It seems like you've given up. You're accepting as a fact that some parents will always hit their children. I don't think we have to accept that. In some countries it's been illegal to hit children for twenty years or longer and it's a shocking aberration when it occurs.

Why do you think that people won't or can't stop hitting their kids? They don't smack their bosses or employees or coworkers when they get angry so surely they can refrain from hitting their children, too. I bet they would refrain from it, if there were legal consequences to the latter as well as to the former.

[dairyfreelife]

Not to mention, a lot of people who were smacked as children aren't really capable of understanding the damage that has been done. Some children dissociate the horrifying experience of being hit by the person they depend on for care, so they can remember *that* it happened but not the actual feeling of it -- and yet studies show that the effects linger. Most often this comes up in relationship difficulties, trouble becoming close to people, etc, but for some people it can turn them violent.

Corporal punishment wasn't used as a rule in our household, but on a very rare occasion my mother would get frustrated and lash out. Mostly this happened when I was being overly contrary. All I learned was how to push her buttons -- if things were getting tense to the point that I thought she might get angry with me, I'd just get more and more argumentative and difficult. I've since learned that this is a very common response that gives the child some sense of control over an uncontrollable, bad situation. Even to this day, if she's in a bad mood I have trouble not making it *worse*.

And immediately I feel the overwhelming urge to defend my mother, who is genuinely a kind, loving person, just one who made a mistake from time to time (a mistake probably rooted in her own childhood experiences of corporal punishment, and not one she made often, and one she always regretted). I think this is part of the problem too. Sometimes otherwise loving parents, due to their own experience or societal values, do spank their kids, and if those kids grow up to have loving, happy relationships with their parents, it's hard to reconcile that with the knowledge that spanking is ineffective and wrong. It means admitting that your parents screwed up, no matter how much they did to make up for it. I think this is why there are so many people who say "I was spanked and it never did me any harm, but I'd never do that to my own kids."

This, totally. QFT. And your last couple lines fit what I am trying to say. I was spanked, not a lot though. Nothing like the Pearls at all. My father and I have an okay relationship. I admit he had faults. We all do. He was impatient, but I think he just did not always know how to handle things. So, yes, I do feel the need to defend him and myself when people say it causes people to be screwed up because that implies those of us who were spanked are messed up and we don't think we are so in comes the defensive. But Pearls methods will never stop being horrible to me. I am not defending corporeal punishment. I was not harmed by spanking really, but I admit that it is wrong and I won't do it to my own children if I ever have any. I do think it is not an effective way to discipline hence why I have no desire to use it. I think it's more of a cop out or used by people who don't know any different ways to discipline. I don't think my parents really knew many ways to discipline outside of groundings and spankings. And their impatience lead to lashing out physically-spanking, once slapped across the face by my mom for being sassy, but that doesn't mean I agree with doing it to my own offspring. My point is that despite being spanked, people do turn out okay. But they learn it's not a good idea and won't use it again with their own. Some will continue the cycle, but most people I know were spanked as children and most of them don't wish to spank their own kiddos. We love our parents and know they do love us, but we disliked the discipline methods. We know there are better and far more effective ways to discipline that don't involve physical pain.

[dairyfreelife]

It seems like you've given up. You're accepting as a fact that some parents will always hit their children. I don't think we have to accept that. In some countries it's been illegal to hit children for twenty years or longer and it's a shocking aberration when it occurs.

Why do you think that people won't or can't stop hitting their kids? They don't smack their bosses or employees or coworkers when they get angry so surely they can refrain from hitting their children, too. I bet they would refrain from it, if there were legal consequences to the latter as well as to the former.

Maybe, but too many people I know see nothing wrong with corporeal punishment and I can't see it happening any time soon. It would be nice if it were outlawed, but I could see major backlash here in the US if we tried. At some point, maybe we will get there. Most young people (that I know personally), including myself, who were spanked don't wish to spank their own offspring, so maybe we will get to a point in the next generation where we can legislate it to where it is illegal. Here's to hoping.

[Guest Anonymous]

So, yes, I do feel the need to defend him and myself when people say it causes people to be screwed up because that implies those of us who were spanked are messed up and we don't think we are so in comes the defensive. But Pearls methods will never stop being horrible to me. I am not defending corporeal punishment. I was not harmed by spanking really, but I admit that it is wrong and I won't do it to my own children if I ever have any.

I'm glad that you aren't "screwed up." My parents spanked and hit me and it absolutely screwed me up. Speak for yourself by all means but don't presume to speak for me or anyone else. Just because you are lucky enough to not have lingering ill effects from being hit doesn't mean that your experience is universal.

You seem more invested in proving that hitting is okay than in stopping it. Justify it to yourself however you need to, but it's coming across pretty offensively. Maybe if I had been a more resilient kid I wouldn't be screwed up, or something.

[Koala]

Fine, but how are you going to stop people from using them-none.

How am I going to stop people from using them none?

Okay, I give up? How? I'm going to need to know what the hell you're talking about before I answer that one. :?

Yes, it is scary to think of my father or parents using their methods, but no, my father would not have beaten me to death.

Well, as long as he wouldn't have beaten you to death then we are A-OKAY! :D :roll: Someone pass him a TTUAC book.

I guess he wouldn't have beaten you to death since you were his biological child right? And we ALL know that biological parents would just never hurt their biological children...they love them too damn much :roll:

I just hate the Pearl's methods, they scare me so to think of anyone using them-no.

Again, no idea what you're trying to say here. No clue.

I am not arguing that it's okay to hit children-it's not, just that people used to be switched and spanked and it's not like we are screwed up as a result.

This again huh? Can you please site your sources? You must have done extensive research to make such a blanket statement. It practically endorses spanking. I mean since no one was screwed up as a result, maybe it worked right?

I am totally fascinated by your ability to gauge just how much violence experienced in childhood has screwed up someones life. Personally I don't even think I am able to gauge just how much of an affect it has had on my life...maybe you can tell me.

I said I won't be spanking my own, what more do you all want?

For you to stop blithely stating that you know that most people were spanked and suffered no lasting harm. That endorses spanking.

parents can and do hurt children

even if a parent spanks a child, they will not do damage

There's a contradiction here...

Do you get that "good" parents aren't capable of reading the Pearl's book without being absolutely repulsed by what they are suggesting? Do you get that if we put a warning on the book that Pearl's methods aren't okay for adopted children, we might as well say they ARE okay for biological children? Do you get that loving parents don't try these methods, and the parents who do lean towards the crazy side of the isle anyway? Do you get that they don't need any further endorsement for their child abusing crazy? Do you get that an abuser will most likely ignore the warning and abuse their adopted or biological child anyway? The answer is not a warning. The answer is mass exposure, and perhaps charges being pressed against Michael Pearl.

Even if parents spank and that was the methods used until recently-physical discipline for the most part, they rarely went far enough to cause serious harm.

HOW on earth do you know? How do you know how far things went behind closed doors? Just because someone survives DOES NOT mean they weren't harmed and damaged. Again, site your freaking sources if you are going to spew this bullshit all over the internet.

[holierthanyou]

dairyfree: Maybe try re-reading your own posts while substituting the word "woman" for "child", and 'men' for 'parents'. Do you see how people will find it offensive and wrong to say that 'Even if men hit women in the past, they all seemed to turn out fine, and very few were harmed by it".

It sounds ridiculous, doesn't it?

[Koala]

So, yes, I do feel the need to defend him and myself when people say it causes people to be screwed up because that implies those of us who were spanked are messed up and we don't think we are so in comes the defensive.

Who is the "we" you presume to speak for, because I KNOW it damaged me? You may feel the need to defend your father, but don't do it by minimizing the harm caused by spanking.

My point is that despite being spanked, people do turn out okay.

Again, who are they people you are speaking for, and why do you assume that you know the impact that spanking has had on their lives?

[Koala]

I figure this will get taken out of context too because people keep ignoring my main point so I think I will bow out of this thread to stick to others.

Yeah, it's a pain in the ass when people take things you are saying out of context by DIRECTLY quoting you.

Love that you've spewed all of this non-sense, and instead of citing some sources to back it all up, you've decided to "bow out". :roll:

edited, because I'm so mad I can't spell