A Modesty Question

[bea]

One of my problems - just one, because you've mentioned most of my issues already in the thread - with the modesty thing is that it assumes the WOST POSSIBLE THINGS about men. I think that's insulting to men, as well as women. Men can't control their eyes? Their thoughts? Their own damn bodies? REAL men can, and they do it every day.

Frankly, if I met one of these weak, flimsy fundie boys who can be brought to their (figurative or literal) knees by a little cleavage, I'd probably kick him in the face. The real world involves other people's bodies. Some are male, some are female. Some you'll find attractive, some not. The answer is NOT to demand that the ones you find attractive cover themselves up - it's to control your own damn self.

[AnnoDomini]

*sigh* Yes. My family says that it's hard enough for boys to control their thoughts/eyes when women cover up, but when a woman is 'immodest' it's almost impossible for a boy to control his thoughts. My sister compared it to baking cookies. Say you have a job baking cookies and there's nothing wrong with that, even if you know the boy upstairs can't have any. He can smell it and he has to control his desires for cookies. But if you call upstairs 'hey I'm making cookies, don't they smell so good?' while knowing he can't have any, that's kind of jerky and makes it that much harder for the boy to control his cookie desires.

So, being a woman is like baking cookies for a living. Can't help it and there's nothing wrong with it. But wearing 'immodest' clothing is like calling upstairs about those delicious cookies that the guy can't have. He still has responsibility to control himself, but boy does calling make it harder.

[Austin]

No offense, but your sister is a twit.

[AnnoDomini]

None taken. Do elaborate.

[Sola]

None taken. Do elaborate.

Well if you are brought up with a healthy attitude towards sex, then you don't have a problem controlling yourself. However if you are brought up to think that any sexual thought or feeling is wrong and that a woman's body should never be seen then you are going to have a hard time controlling yourself when you are faced with a cleavage the first time you see one post-puberty.

[pfamilygal]

Y'all inspired me with this thread:

http://pfamilygal.blogspot.com/2011/12/ ... wimps.html

[VodouDoll]

But wearing 'immodest' clothing is like calling upstairs about those delicious cookies that the guy can't have. He still has responsibility to control himself, but boy does calling make it harder.

Makes it harder to...what? I don't get it. Makes it harder to not go downstairs and demand or steal her cookies?

Your sister's analogy is inane, but okay. Going with that, let's say I was born a cookie baker (that is, it wasn't something I chose to be, but something that I just am, like being female), and there was absolutely nothing wrong with baking cookies, and I had every right to do it. There's nothing illegal about baking cookies. Now let's say my upstairs neighbor tried to, I don't know, get me to smell-proof my kitchen so he wouldn't have to smell the cookies I was baking because he couldn't have any and it was getting on his nerves. I would tell him that if it bothered him so much, he should move. Or to smell proof his own apartment, since he's the one with the problem. Why should managing his weirdo issue be my responsibility?

[celestial]

AD, your sister's analogy doesn't work because women aren't the only ones "baking cookies." Men "bake cookies" for a living too! And no one has a responsibility to change/avoid advertising their cookie-baking ways. We're all attracted to other people, all the time, and that is perfectly normal and natural. It's how god created us! The only responsibility we have is how we act on our desires, not in what desires we might or might not inspire in others.

[AnnoDomini]

This is so true! Men totally bake cookies! But according to my family, it's not the same for men, since we women generally would have to be touching the cookies to be tempted.

You are right--some things can't be debated away, people just have to be ready to change. I have a masochistic streak, it seems. But hey, I used to believe in the cookie-baking analogy and all that modesty stuff, even if I chafed under its rules. If I could change, others can get to a place where they're ready too. But it's impossible to force it.

[VodouDoll]

This is so true! Men totally bake cookies! But it's not the same for them, since we women generally would have to be touching the cookies to be tempted.

I can only speak for myself, obviously, but...I don't think that's true.

What do they mean by "tempted?" Tempted to what?

And now that I'm thinking about it, what about other sins besides lust? Like, say, jealousy! AD, if a neighbor or fellow church member or something came to your parents and said, "Mr. and Mrs. Domini, your house is so lovely. Every time I drive by, I'm consumed with jealousy that you get to live in such a wonderful house and I don't. I'm going to need you to build a ten-foot privacy fence to hide your house from view, so that the envy it incites will no longer be a stumbling block in my walk with the Lord."

Would your parents say, "Oh, yes, of course, that's totally reasonable. We'll buy the fence right away, and please accept our heartfelt apologies for making your Christian walk more difficult than it has to be by having such a nice house in a place where you can see it from the road?" Or would they tell the guy to stop being so weird and keep his eyes to himself if looking at their house upsets him so much?

[Sola]

This is so true! Men totally bake cookies! But according to my family, it's not the same for men, since we women generally would have to be touching the cookies to be tempted.

You are right--some things can't be debated away, people just have to be ready to change. I have a masochistic streak, it seems. But hey, I used to believe in the cookie-baking analogy and all that modesty stuff, even if I chafed under its rules. If I could change, others can get to a place where they're ready too. But it's impossible to force it.

Yeah right :lol:

I can assure your sister that she is talking BS! Take the other week for example; my daughter had a field trip with her Badger group to the local fire station. Like I was going to miss that one! Several hunky firemen? :icon-twisted: No touching involved (though I did plan on offering to help hold their hoses and polish their helmets... :D ) but those firemen were HOT!

[annalena]

Never understood what in the world is so wrong with "impure" thoughts, for heaven's sake.

So what if they see a hot girl in think about banging her, excuse my wording?

[apple1]

There honestly is no accounting for taste so the whole modesty thing, from a fundy pov, seems bollocks. I can remember standing waiting for a train, hungover, with a baseball cap, a sweatshirt and ragged jeans on. I hated the world and wanted it to go away. Three different men came and chatted me up.

(I also get "Skinhead girls are hot..." and "Can I touch your head?" ;) )

And believe me, I will not be winning Miss World any time soon. I am not much of a looker. It is that the human desires go in strange ways. Modestly covering every inch of you...well I asked some male friends and they said, as others said here, "What fun taking it all off. Slowly." ;)

I haven't read this whole thread yet. (And I know this is sort of off-topic). @JFC: Please forgive me if I am overstepping. I might be the age of your Mama. It makes me hurt for you to hear you put yourself down. Like many, I would first say that what's inside is much more important than outward appearance. But I wish you could see yourself as beautiful. Beauty takes many forms, not only the form that contemporary advertising presents. I so hope you can view yourself as a wonderful unique person, beautiful in a way that is unique to you. (Sorry if I overstepped here).

[apple1]

A big part of modesty is to use it as a tool to prevent women from having power or living full lives. Pants for women started to catch on when bicycles became popular, and the time it was it was a big outrage that women were choosing to wear pants instead of just giving up bikes and staying closer to home (much harder to go long distances when you have to walk compared to a bike). The modest clothes that fundies wear would not be considered modest in a lot of times in places. The reason that women are held to stricter standards than men is less about being sexually enticing and more about isolating them from the rest of world by making it harder for them to simply fit in. It harder for a woman to escape a horrible lifestyle when she'll stand out like a sore thumb everywhere she goes. It's also much harder to run away and hide from an abusive husband or father. And these ridiculous costumes are also meant to make them feel like the outside world is hostile towards them.

And forcing these double standards on children really limits their activities. Girls can't just play and be free when they're forced to wear dresses AND punished severely for letting anything show. And if they can't really play actively, then they might as well just cook and clean and care for siblings because they can't do much else.

THAT.

Way back when... my daughter were little girls. I dressed them in normal kid clothes, you know pants in the winter, shorts in the summer, they played normally. For about 3 or 4 hours a week, I put them in dresses when we went to church on Sunday. (I know, but that's how it was back then, and we were not "fundy"...) I will always remember how frustrated and upset they would be if I didn't get them changed back into the pants/shorts right away and they tried to crawl around and play and got all tangled up in the dress.

And getting tangled up in the dress (so to speak) is the life of older girls and adult women who are tied to dresses-only. I have no problem with those who prefer dresses much of the time for style or comfort, but if they are forced to never wear anything else, their activities are truly limited. No one will ever convince me otherwise.

[apple1]

Double post- sorry.

[annalena]

I LOVE wearing skirts and dresses, like almost every day. I love looking preppy and elegant and I think it looks more feminine, really.

But I also wear mini dresses and skirts because I want to look sexy. What is wrong with that? Fellas can think whatever they want as long as they do not stare at me, or dare to touch me. I freak out when that happens.

Also, I do not wear skirts and dresses for certain activities. Like sports. Just because it makes no sense at all. As much as I love them, it would just be pointless to wear a skirt to a Zumba class.

[FlorenceHamilton]

This is a very interesting thread. Ultimately, there are 2 major issues at debate. The first is the question of what is modest and under what circumstances. It is pretty arbitrary depending on what "modesty culture" we are talking about. The second issue is responsibility. Are women responsible for the thoughts and behaviors of men? If so, to what degree?

My mom is very opinionated about the issue of modesty. Her rules and regulations are very clear to her, although they are not in line with any of the fundie rules with which we are familiar here. I do suspect that the roots ore indeed religious as she was raised by an immigrant Jewish family. She has embellished the reasoning into the secular world that she embraced when she attended school. Mom believes that pants are generally more modest than skirts. This is because they make access to the private arts more difficult. Skin tight is immodest. She has a very specific, but difficult to pin down idea about what "well fitting" means. Pants are for casual activities as well as when any sort of physical work is to be done. So bike riding and house cleaning would require pants. She is OK with jeans for these activities as long as they cover everything and allow safe movement. Skirts are ok and could be worn to work (she is a feminist in this area) or to worship or many social functions. Skirts are to be at or below the knee. Very young girls can wear above the knee skirts, even teens as long as they are at least half way to the knee. Cleavage is NEVER EVER to be shown. Mom has a special aversion to cleavage. It actually makes her uncomfortable. Mom also approves of bikinis. Up to age 16. No older. She is not into head covering, but she thinks that long hair should end with marriage. After that short hair only. Except for me. I was supposed to keep short hair all the time.

I am 51 years old now. My style of dress has evolved over the years as has my body. But my mother still comments that my clothing is too clingy, too short, shows cleavage and is inappropriate. She will tell me that a dress I wore yesterday was way too short. I bring it out of my closet and show her that it actually is calf length, but has a kerchief hem. She says that it is not what I wore. I admit that there are times that I still show a hint of cleavage and an occasion where my skirt is slightly above my knee, But that is as far as the immodesty goes.

My point is that my mom has a particular set of weird hang ups. I don't even understand them all. She is not open to answer my questions because she thinks I am taunting her and that the answers are as evident to everyone else as they are to her. One thing is clear. Her hang ups are sexual. She is clearly (and has always been) so afraid that her daughter is sexual that she created a set of standards to try to negate my sexuality. She calls herself a feminist. She raised me to be a feminist. When I turned out to be a feminist, she got totally flummoxed.

AnnoDominni, don't bother to try to make a point with your mom. She will never get it. Even if she does, she will not concede to you that she does. Just use your own good judgement and allow enough space within that judgment to allow new thoughts to percolate. Expect your new attitudes and actions to be labeled selfish. Doing things and thinking things the way YOU want to is selfish in a way. Sometimes, we need a little bit of selfish to survive. Mom is being selfish right now to not allow her children to grow up, to reach their full potential and to thrive.

[annalena]

Wow, your mom sure has her rules straightened out.

I just thought about my own modesty standards. Trying to lay them out.

- When teaching, no mini skirts, spaghetti tops, high heels with skirts, low-rise jeans, hotpants, anything see-through. High heels with pants are ok. Not too fancy or preppy.

- Actually in any professional envireonment, pretty much the same.

- When going out, showing EITHER leg OR cleavage, never at the same time.

- Bikinis in beach places or on the balcony.

- In my free time, I just dress according to the weather. Light sundresses are great in summer. No modesty issues here.

I also believe it should be subject to age. I remember a time when my mother's (slighlty crazy) friend showed up, wearing an ensemble I would not have worn anymore at the time because I would have felt too old. I was 21, she was about 45.

She wore overknee stockings, a plaid micro-mini skirt, and a blouse. Cliché all the way.

I would have worn something like this when I was 15.

[ems]

Y'all inspired me with this thread:

http://pfamilygal.blogspot.com/2011/12/ ... wimps.html

Very well said :).

[ems]

I can only speak for myself, obviously, but...I don't think that's true.

What do they mean by "tempted?" Tempted to what?

And now that I'm thinking about it, what about other sins besides lust? Like, say, jealousy! AD, if a neighbor or fellow church member or something came to your parents and said, "Mr. and Mrs. Domini, your house is so lovely. Every time I drive by, I'm consumed with jealousy that you get to live in such a wonderful house and I don't. I'm going to need you to build a ten-foot privacy fence to hide your house from view, so that the envy it incites will no longer be a stumbling block in my walk with the Lord."

Would your parents say, "Oh, yes, of course, that's totally reasonable. We'll buy the fence right away, and please accept our heartfelt apologies for making your Christian walk more difficult than it has to be by having such a nice house in a place where you can see it from the road?" Or would they tell the guy to stop being so weird and keep his eyes to himself if looking at their house upsets him so much?

My question would be, what would a woman have to be wearing to, ummm..."advertise her cookies" (uugh)? As people have already pointed out, modesty is a very relative concept. I feel that I dress about average in terms of modesty, and I don't dress to intentionally provoke. But many fundie men have probably been raised to find my (slightly clevage-showing, sorry I have a chest!) long-sleeved shirt and trousers provacative/defrauding. So I really can't do anything about that, beyond wearing a burka.

I've also thought about the concept of insiting people to other sins. Why isn't showing off/bragging about your property considered "defrauding"? Oh, right, the man-lust issue.

[CynicMom]

Two further thoughts:

If I ever ran into one of these you-must-be-covered-up-lest-you-temp-me guys I'd say something like "Give me $20 or else I'll take off my shirt". Provided I could say it with a straight face.

Regarding the cookie baking. Some women have tastier cookies than others, why should they have to take extra measures to hide what comes naturally to them? Also, sometimes cookie bakers want to advertise! How else would a discerning purchaser know which cookies were the best for them? How else could any cookies get sold? I'm under no obligation to stop advertising so the diabetic won't get tempted.

That's a good counter-analogy actually. Would this same person think that McDonald's shouldn't be allowed to advertise because diabetics can't eat their food?

[AnnoDomini]

My mother thinks I have tastier cookies than my older sister, for she barely bats an eye over some things she wears, that if I were to wear them, I'd be politely 'asked' to change into something more 'modest'.

[annalena]

AD- since you're trying to escape (I assume), maybe you should try to keep a low profile and work on your list for now. Once you're out there, go to shop a very nice dress and boots or somethin (depending on the weather, right now I'm thinking snow;)) and enjoy your new freedom.

[AnnoDomini]

Yes, I'm making plans to leave. Trying to keep a low profile.

[Constance Vigilance]

That's smart.