A Modesty Question

[O Latin]

Okay, first of all, I promise I'm not one of those "golly gee, what is it you all do here" types we've had a lot of lately. I am honestly confused about something that I'm sure the lovely FJers will be able to clear up for me.

There have been a couple of "modesty hurts women" threads recently, which I admit I have not read in depth due to being in pre-Christmas-break paper writing mode. When I do read those threads, and the articles linked in them, I can't quite figure out what they're trying to say. Maybe my brain is just too addled by the Philippine-American War and Medieval witchcraft trials, but I can't figure out if it's dressing modestly itself that hurts women or if it's the expectation in certain cultures that women dress modestly that is the problem. I assume it's the latter, but I'm not sure.

[Austin]

The thing that stuck out to me in one of those threads as a real truth is that mostly, if a woman dresses intentionally modestly or intentionally immodestly (highly subjective terms), she's still doing it for men. Or something like that, only more profound.

[liltwinstar]

I think the issue is that externally imposed modesty hurts women, becuase it reduces them to body parts. It dehumanizes women - rather than being full participants in society, we are reduced to the pieces of our bodies that might arouse men.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that when you are forced to dress modestly and in a way that stands out, you are, first and foremost, also drawing attention to your sexuality. Most men can go out in the world, even in ugly/mismatched/whatever outfits and be treated as Bob, Steve, Joe, whoever. Women go into the world and their outfits screm "I'm a woman!! Don't be sexually attracted to me!!" before you can even get to the point of knowing that woman.

If you see a nun in a habit, your first thought is "there's a nun" not "oh, that's sister so-and-so". The fundie uniform functions the same way.

Clearly, if a woman feels better about herself in a long-sleeved dress and a headcovering, that's fine. The problem with modesty comes in when it is imposed by an external force- the church, other men, etc. Also, because there is a *huge* range of what men find attractive (long hair, short hair, pants, skirts, toe cleavage, boob cleavage, the librarian look, etc etc etc...) there is no possible way that a woman can dress in a way that *no* man will find them attractive at all. It's just not possible.

All that to say, it's not an internal sense of modesty/comfort that's the problem, in my opinion, its the outwardly imposed impossible standard that's the problem.

[AnnieC 305]

True story, I know a guy who is totally turned on by modest dress. In fact, the more composed you are, the more carefully controlled the hair, the more layers of skirts and chemises whatnot you have the better, and if you add in a corset he just might die. His wife has a whole wardrobe of stuff like this.

http://www.simplicity.com/p-1993-costumes.aspx

I kid you not, she used to put it on when he came home from business trips. According to him it's like Christmas, the more careful the wrapping paper the better the gift, and taking down all that careful, modest control with really good sex was the ultimate turn on. And honestly I've know a half dozen other guys would probably felt the same way but weren't comfortable admitting finding something that out of the mainstream attractive.

The moral is, you may as well dress in a way you think appropriate and comfortable, and not worry about your effect on men. No matter what you wear some guy is going to get turned on by it, but that's their problem, not yours.

[bananacat]

Imposed modesty transfers responsibility from men to women. It gives men excuses to treat women differently just because of what they are wearing, and at the most extreme some rapists will use lack of conformity to a modesty standard as an excuse when they target a woman.

It's also a gigantic double standard, because it's very rare to see anyone, fundie or not, telling men to cover up more, unless they're doing it an "eww, gross" kind of way.

Then there is the problem that modesty is often impractical. Wearing many layers in the heat is actually dangerous. Wearing long skirts makes riding bikes and horses difficult, and wearing long sleeves makes it unsafe to work with machinery or power tools. Girls who have to wear dresses but are also expected to be modest can't run around and do cartwheels and just play like they want to. When modesty limits the activities that women and girls can do, it makes me think that it is imposed on them with that intention in mind. It's a way to keep them in the kitchen.

And so you might say "Ok, but what about less extreme modesty? What about wearing pants and t-shirts but just making sure your legs are covered enough or your cleavage is covered enough?" And the problem is that "covered enough" is completely arbitrary. There's no way to get any level of agreement on exactly how a high a neckline should be or exactly how long your shorts should be. One person's modest is another person's risque.

I also don't like the inherent shame in teaching girls that there's a certain line on your body where it suddenly becomes shameful for anyone to see it.

[Mommy22alyns]

The thing that stuck out to me in one of those threads as a real truth is that mostly, if a woman dresses intentionally modestly or intentionally immodestly (highly subjective terms), she's still doing it for men. Or something like that, only more profound.

This.

[No KoolAid]

I guess what I'm trying to say is that when you are forced to dress modestly and in a way that stands out, you are, first and foremost, also drawing attention to your sexuality. [...] there is no possible way that a woman can dress in a way that *no* man will find them attractive at all. It's just not possible.

This.

No matter what you wear some guy is going to get turned on by it, but that's their problem, not yours.

And this.

There was a cape dress head covered anabaptist convert who came to our church for awhile. She was a truck driver by profession and gave Charity Denomination tapes to a few of us to listen to. Several times a year, she would go visit and stay with some important Charity families who had given her the gospel a few years back and were still trying to help her.

She was a sweetheart with residual problems from a troubled life. She said her sin problem was sex addiction. Charity Denomination told her if she dressed properly, men would leave her alone. They didn't. She came back to our church after trucking assignments, weeping that she'd done it again with various guys on the road. According to her, she'd had less trouble avoiding acting out on her own temptations when she was in normal clothes. Some guys liked the challenge and intrigue of getting a religious girl to bend.

I don't think Modest Clothing in and of itself stops or prevents the reality of human sexual desires from either end, male or female. And in her case, it seemed to exacerbate it.

Edited to remove quote

[ilovetchotchkes]

True story, I know a guy who is totally turned on by modest dress. In fact, the more composed you are, the more carefully controlled the hair, the more layers of skirts and chemises whatnot you have the better, and if you add in a corset he just might die. His wife has a whole wardrobe of stuff like this.

http://www.simplicity.com/p-1993-costumes.aspx

I kid you not, she used to put it on when he came home from business trips. According to him it's like Christmas, the more careful the wrapping paper the better the gift, and taking down all that careful, modest control with really good sex was the ultimate turn on. And honestly I've know a half dozen other guys would probably felt the same way but weren't comfortable admitting finding something that out of the mainstream attractive.

The moral is, you may as well dress in a way you think appropriate and comfortable, and not worry about your effect on men. No matter what you wear some guy is going to get turned on by it, but that's their problem, not yours.

If you're wearing the correct undergarments, no undressing is necessary. The drawers are split, crotchless. Otherwise peeing in all those layers is impossible. :whistle: :whistle: :whistle:

[emmiedahl]

True story, I know a guy who is totally turned on by modest dress. In fact, the more composed you are, the more carefully controlled the hair, the more layers of skirts and chemises whatnot you have the better, and if you add in a corset he just might die. His wife has a whole wardrobe of stuff like this.

My husband is the same way. He would have a permanent boner if I ran around in regency dress.

[AnnoDomini]

The 'dressing for men' argument is a really, really good point. I have reposted it to my fb page. See what my fundy family makes of that.

[O Latin]

Thanks for all the replies. I think I get it now (I think I got it before, I just needed some clarifications).

I dress in a way that most people would consider modest. I usually wear jeans and either a t-shirt or a sweater, depending on the season. I don't wear skirts above the knee because I think they make me look like a four-year-old. I don't wear shorts because I don't like to buy something I can only wear three months out of the year. I don't wear sleeveless tops for the same reason, and because I think they just make me look silly. I would read these "modesty hurts women" articles and think, so, what I'm supposed to dress less modestly? But if I understand correctly, the point is that women should be able to dress in whatever way they choose without having to feel responsible for men's thoughts. That makes sense and I completely agree.

[Constance Vigilance]

But if I understand correctly, the point is that women should be able to dress in whatever way they choose without having to feel responsible for men's thoughts. That makes sense and I completely agree.

:) That is exactly the point.

[annalena]

The whole modesty thing is so ridicolous (sp?). A lot of people are turned on by feet, men particulary. I don't exactly get it, but whatever .What if the Duggars defraud them with their flipflops and their little (?) feet?

[JesusFightClub]

There honestly is no accounting for taste so the whole modesty thing, from a fundy pov, seems bollocks. I can remember standing waiting for a train, hungover, with a baseball cap, a sweatshirt and ragged jeans on. I hated the world and wanted it to go away. Three different men came and chatted me up.

(I also get "Skinhead girls are hot..." and "Can I touch your head?" ;) )

And believe me, I will not be winning Miss World any time soon. I am not much of a looker. It is that the human desires go in strange ways. Modestly covering every inch of you...well I asked some male friends and they said, as others said here, "What fun taking it all off. Slowly." ;)

[desertvixen]

I would read these "modesty hurts women" articles and think, so, what I'm supposed to dress less modestly? But if I understand correctly, the point is that women should be able to dress in whatever way they choose without having to feel responsible for men's thoughts. That makes sense and I completely agree.

That is the point, and also this: YOU are making this decision for yourself, and not expecting the rest of us to dress like you do, nor judging us for how we dress. You are dressing to make yourself comfortable.

My daughter LOVES dresses and swirly, twirly skirts, but she always wears them with leggings/bike shorts, so she can do what she likes in terms of physical activity.

[annalena]

There honestly is no accounting for taste so the whole modesty thing, from a fundy pov, seems bollocks. I can remember standing waiting for a train, hungover, with a baseball cap, a sweatshirt and ragged jeans on. I hated the world and wanted it to go away. Three different men came and chatted me up.

You know it was the defrauding pants!

[AnnoDomini]

I posted this on my facebook: If a woman dresses intentionally modestly or intentionally immodestly, she's still doing it for men.

My mother: True. But one is to entice them, the other is to spare them difficulty.

Me: That's a nice thought, but why should we construct something that should be as personal as clothing around men?

My older sister: I see what mom's saying. If you sincerely want to spare them difficulty, then dressing modestly *is* an expression of your personality.

[Austin]

I had to think about this for awhile, but came to the conclusion that women really don't have to choose one or the other (modesty vs. immodesty). I don't ever think about modesty/immodesty for instance. I dress for myself and I honestly don't think men, or what they will think one way or another, influence me in that way. I have a definite style with which I am comfortable, and that's how I choose clothing. My husband rarely remarks on my clothing at all and I don't think I've ever heard him say anything with regard to modesty/immodesty. I expect him to love me for me and to see my clothing choices as a reflection of me and my personality and if he stops liking that, then that's his problem. I mean, I can't and don't want to change who I am and if I thought he was the type who would ever ask me to, I should have never married him.

[Shirley MacLaine]

There honestly is no accounting for taste so the whole modesty thing, from a fundy pov, seems bollocks. I can remember standing waiting for a train, hungover, with a baseball cap, a sweatshirt and ragged jeans on. I hated the world and wanted it to go away. Three different men came and chatted me up.

Haha, yeah, I have had this same experience wearing a hodgepodge of clothes, wet from the rain, sniffling, in line to buy Nyquil at the store.

Like Austin, I don't think about modesty or immodesty at all when I'm dressing. I do tend to go with things with sleeves, but that's because of my own insecurity about my arms.

[StarrieEyedKat]

I posted this on my facebook: If a woman dresses intentionally modestly or intentionally immodestly, she's still doing it for men.

My mother: True. But one is to entice them, the other is to spare them difficulty.

Me: That's a nice thought, but why should we construct something that should be as personal as clothing around men?

My older sister: I see what mom's saying. If you sincerely want to spare them difficulty, then dressing modestly *is* an expression of your personality.

And I would respond with "Maybe women should dress for themselves and let the men be responsible for their own eyes/thoughts/difficulty."

[Happy_Anabaptist]

I have a very hard time believing skirts/dresses are more modest than a loose pair of pants. I argued that for a long time several years ago, with various fundies I knew, and none of them could convince me they are any more modest in a skirt. In fact, depending on what you're doing, I think it's less modest.

But I decided to wear dresses anyway. ;) It has nothing to do with modesty for me, everything to do with looking and feeling feminine. And just because I like sewing dresses.

[AnnoDomini]

Done. We'll see what they have to say about that.

[Kitty]

I have a very hard time believing skirts/dresses are more modest than a loose pair of pants. I argued that for a long time several years ago, with various fundies I knew, and none of them could convince me they are any more modest in a skirt. In fact, depending on what you're doing, I think it's less modest.

But I decided to wear dresses anyway. ;) It has nothing to do with modesty for me, everything to do with looking and feeling feminine. And just because I like sewing dresses.

^This, whole-heartedly. My public high school also allowed skirts to fall a few inches above the knee, but shorts had to fall right at the knee. It was crazy, and I wound up wearing jeans every single day, even in 85+ degree weather, even for marching band rehearsal every day, in the beginning of the school year. (In North Carolina, in case you're wondering.)

I'll take skinny jeans over any length of skirt any day.

[ADoyle90815]

I have a very hard time believing skirts/dresses are more modest than a loose pair of pants. I argued that for a long time several years ago, with various fundies I knew, and none of them could convince me they are any more modest in a skirt. In fact, depending on what you're doing, I think it's less modest.

But I decided to wear dresses anyway. ;) It has nothing to do with modesty for me, everything to do with looking and feeling feminine. And just because I like sewing dresses.

I completely agree, there are times when pants are really more modest than skirts. While I mostly wear pants or shorts, there are times when I just like wearing a dress. Even then, some of my dresses would still be considered defrauding as they're sleeveless or halter style.

[bananacat]

There honestly is no accounting for taste so the whole modesty thing, from a fundy pov, seems bollocks. I can remember standing waiting for a train, hungover, with a baseball cap, a sweatshirt and ragged jeans on. I hated the world and wanted it to go away. Three different men came and chatted me up.

(I also get "Skinhead girls are hot..." and "Can I touch your head?" ;) )

And believe me, I will not be winning Miss World any time soon. I am not much of a looker. It is that the human desires go in strange ways. Modestly covering every inch of you...well I asked some male friends and they said, as others said here, "What fun taking it all off. Slowly." ;)

Sometimes I think a certain type of men are more likely to hit on a woman who isn't Hollywood pretty because they think we're desperate and will be grateful for any attention. I've lived in and traveled to many cities, and I have noticed that in some places getting hit on by random strangers is a lot more common. One of those places is Philadelphia, where I went to college. So whenever I needed to go somewhere but didn't want to deal with the hassle of turning down guys, I tried to make myself look unattractive. I didn't bother to wash my hair or use make-up, and I just wore sweatpants and a t-shirt. Well, that failed because I got hit on more, and by creepier, skeevier guys. They just seemed to assume that I would have lower standards because I couldn't get the decent guys or something. And this is one experience that showed me that it's not my responsibility to dress a certain way to deal with men's behavior. They need to take that responsibility for themselves.