Question about fundie girl non-conforming hair

[Happy_Anabaptist]

It's feminine and men like it, and patriarchy is all about women pleasing men.

All women pleasing all men? That sounds more than dangerous...

[emmiedahl]

Just the only men they are allowed to interact with: their dad, husband, employers, etc.

[Maul the Koala]

Lol what?

You beat me to it. If long hair is immodest because it gets men hot and bothered then pretty much anything can be immodest. That is if we're using the criteria that men are able to get hot and bothered by it. Which is pretty much anything really. If it exists, there is a fetish for it.

[JesusFightClub]

Weird topic ;) but very interesting. I have wondered about this after seeing the Duggar girls.

I shave my head (No 2 on the clippers, think Natalie Portman in V for Vendetta). Why? It is comfortable, longer hair annoys me, I am not particularly worried about Making Men Like Me With My Sexxxay and I amn't paying stupid amounts for a cut :)

I have been confused by the flowing locks business though. Jinger in pics and the other female Duggars are almost wearing a uniform and probably have more hair than they like. Why the crunchy hair? Why do weans have to kid on they have hair? What is the hair thing?

Very strange...

[apple1]

I have been confused by the flowing locks business though. Jinger in pics and the other female Duggars are almost wearing a uniform and probably have more hair than they like.

The Duggars (as I'm sure you know) are Gothard followers. Gothard has a whole "theology" (not really Bible-based; Gothard-preference-based) on girls/women's hair. Really. No joke. It's quite ridiculous.

[Crackedeggs]

There is an intense talk show host named Michael Savage, broadcasts out of The Bay Area, I think.

I used to listen just to be intrigued, but then he was talking about how some in Islam require women to cover all the hair on their heads.

Savage said sagely, "They understand the power of hair!"

I stopped listening after that.

From what I know of him, he was being sarcastic. He HATES Muslims... can't imagine him siding with them.

I can't stand him though, he's too damn angry.

[Brainsample]

I know I'm getting dangerously close to thread jacking, but I have to ask because I can't imagine the answer: how does one take pains to show off her hair? Like, by brushing it? Or by wearing a nice headband or something?

I just tinted mine purple with Lusty Lavender from Splatz to cover the grey. :mrgreen: I love it.

[Brainsample]

The Duggars (as I'm sure you know) are Gothard followers. Gothard has a whole "theology" (not really Bible-based; Gothard-preference-based) on girls/women's hair. Really. No joke. It's quite ridiculous.

Wavy, but not too curly because too much curl and frizz was a sign of rebellion. I don't think that they liked poker straight hair, either. :roll:

[apple1]

Wavy, but not too curly because too much curl and frizz was a sign of rebellion. I don't think that they liked poker straight hair, either. :roll:

Right. (I would have been an outcast; my poker-straight hair wouldn't take curl, or even wave, in spite of rollers, curling irons, or perms, even professional perms).

[Constance Vigilance]

I don't know of a church that would force anyone to straighten their hair.

And long flowing hair is immodest.

Wouldn't only naturally straight hair qualify as flowing? I don't even know how a standard like that would logically work.

There is no point in me arguing with you when you're already arguing with yourself, so I'll leave you to it.

[Soldier of the One]

Truth to be told though, that whether we like it or not, enormous amounts of 'power' *is* ascribed to women's hair, cross-culturally.

Just think hijab in Islam and a married woman's obligation to cover her hair in traditional Judaism. Then, there are quite a number of head-covering sects in Christianity also.

At the other extreme, there's the objectification of women's hair (and bodies) by the commercialized Western beauty standard. We all know what that looks like. The long, flowing, voluminous, shining tresses. Just look at any random advert, really.

I believe both positions are extremes that are a lot closer than we think. Both show a 'concern' with women's hair. Both try to curtail women's sexual expression.

Now, I am not saying I am anti-hijab or anti-women-having-pretty-hair, because I think reality is often more complex than the models we impose on it. For a hijabi, Orthodox Jew or covering Christian, there might be a whole array of meaning to their covering that feels positive and empowering to them. Likewise for the Western woman who might experience her adorned hair as an extension of her creativity and self-expression. Either way is fine with me.

But let's not pretend that hair is not seen as a sexually enticing entity because it often is.

How we want to deal with that as feminists or traditionalists or whatever is up to us.

[belowrubies]

I think they also have " long flowing hair" or even just long hair (and bangs, love the aqua net bangs many have) because that equals the stereotype of femininity. Same reason all fundie guys have short hair.

[fakepigtails73]

Immodest according to whom?[/quo

No kidding! :shock:

[maybeizfundie]

Generalization is part of the problem here. Fundie groups vary. There are some pretty intensely fundamentalist groups among the pentacostals, and many of them are primarily AA congregations. Gothardism (and the Duggar's hairstyles) are just one form of fundamentalist. the African American fundementalists that I know of don't tend to see a need for "long and flowing". If femininity is the issue, or even if haircutting is forbidden, braids and various other styles work just as well.

[Happy_Anabaptist]

There is no point in me arguing with you when you're already arguing with yourself, so I'll leave you to it.

Hmm... not arguing with myself exactly, just puzzling over a ridiculous standard I'd never heard of until now. :) I guess I'm being a bit hypocritical though when I say long flowing hair is immodest. My hair is straight and just past my butt and now and then I do wear it down in public. The last time I was at the hospital, for example. I didn't really want to lie in a hospital bed with my hair all in a bun and my headcovering getting crinkled. I really don't think either standard is necessary, that women "always" have to have long, straight hair down and flowing, or that women "always" have to hide their hair.

[MaroonMandy]

If long hair is immodest because it gets men hot and bothered then pretty much anything can be immodest. That is if we're using the criteria that men are able to get hot and bothered by it. Which is pretty much anything really. If it exists, there is a fetish for it.

True that.

For example, I have several sets of lingerie/garters/etc. ranging from only slightly immodest to "yowza" but my boyfriend's favorite? Long john pants and shirt that have moose on them and say "I moose be dreaming." So does that make them immodest? Does that mean I can wear the bustier out in public and not be worried about defrauding anyone?

[Constance Vigilance]

I really don't think either standard is necessary, that women "always" have to have long, straight hair down and flowing, or that women "always" have to hide their hair.

Good, we are agreed on that. So don't you think it's inappropriately judgemental to make blanket statements like "Long flowing hair is immodest"? Some men think long flowing hair is immodest. That really does not mean women (any women) are required to accept that as true, or to act accordingly in order to be modest.

[Burris]

I don't know of a church that would force anyone to straighten their hair.

And long flowing hair is immodest.

So women should have long hair because it's their "glory"(1 Corinthians 11:15), and take special pains for hair-care, but to wear it "flowing" is immodest and so they should work at hiding it.

Some women cover their heads all the time because of an out-of-context mixing of three principles - that people should pray without ceasing, that women should cover their heads while praying, and that modesty is important.

I never have gotten the short of it as to why men are ever allowed to cover thair own heads with baseball caps or knitted hats or anything since they, too, should "pray without ceasing." Paul says men are supposed to go bear-headed when they pray.

It's a convenient double-standard for men that all this modesty talk is usually aimed at women.

[Happy_Anabaptist]

The way I see it, wearing a headcovering all the time is convenience. It's a lot easier for a man to whip off his hat to pray, than for a woman to pin on her veil.

[Shina]

It's more convenient to not wear one at all.

[Happy_Anabaptist]

It's more convenient to not wear one at all.

It's Biblical though.

[Constance Vigilance]

It's Biblical though.

Says you. There are many interpretations of those verses. The majority of devout female Christians I know would laugh in your face at the idea that they should wear a headcovering, and there are many Christians on the board who disagree also.

[Burris]

The way I see it, wearing a headcovering all the time is convenience. It's a lot easier for a man to whip off his hat to pray, than for a woman to pin on her veil.

It just seems to me that far less is expected of the men. I've read a few veiling sites where women who don't cover all the time are castigated for "laziness" and "selfishness" by individuals who don't seem to believe in any liberty at all. And yet I've seen a few men with ball-caps on indoors while the women and girls with them are wearing veils, and I think, "WTF?"

[JesusFightClub]

The Duggars (as I'm sure you know) are Gothard followers. Gothard has a whole "theology" (not really Bible-based; Gothard-preference-based) on girls/women's hair. Really. No joke. It's quite ridiculous.

Wow! Thanks apple1. That is totally fucked up.

I figured they had to have long hair but styling it a certain way? That's why they crunch it all up? Am sure hair mousse isn't in the Bible...

[Burris]

It's Biblical though.

If it's Biblical that women should always wear a veil, then it's just as Biblical that men should never cover their heads - or at least they should be uncovered in every situation where a woman ie expected to be covered. And yet I have never - not *ever* - seen or heard of bare-headedness being mandated for men outside the walls of a church. I've never heard of a man being called names for wearing a cap to protect himself from the sun, and yet if a woman who is hot decides to bear her head, she's lazy and selfish and worse.