Colorado boy joins Girl Scouts

[emmiedahl]

The GS do so many female health projects, also. Does the boy really need to learn about the proper care of a vagina? Will his presence make it awkward if the girls begin discussing their own development? They are not just sitting around making cookies and playing with Barbies. My daughter's Brownie book tells her to be a sister to all girls and discusses at length how she should do that. Boys are not a part of the equation. I just don't see where a boy would fit in or what he would gain from being in our troop.

I can understand why the leaders are up in arms. GS is supposed to be a place where girls can grow without the complicating presence of patriarchy and gender-related awkwardness.

btw I thank everyone who buys cookies. It funds all of the girls' projects, which they choose and plan and budget for. Many people don't realize that buying a box of GS cookies is giving young girls power.

[ladypuglover]

If the boy wants to join the girl scouts,then let him. Camping is what, once a year? I was in girlscouts and I only remember one camping trip and the moms all slept in the room with us(it was a big lodge). Nothing is going to go on there.

Clibby, this is off topic but camping is left up to the leaders. When I was a GS leader, we went camping 4-5 times during the summer and fall. Most were in cabins or cabin/tent and some were tent camping. If it was a cabin or combo tent/cabin there was at least one adult in the room or cabin. If it was a tent the adults had their own tent and the girls had their own.

In cub scouts and boy scouts no adult is allowed to sleep with the child unless all children are his sons. So a parent can sleep with his son/s in a tent but not with his son's friends. Same for a mother going on the trips but also she may not sleep with any male leaders tents unless she is sharing it only with her husband. Of course this all can be blown out of the water on the family camp outs. In a tent you might have mom, dad, the scouter and sisters, brothers, friends, aunts and what have you down to the family dogs.

My long drawn out point is that it is up to the leaders how often you go camping. Some girl scout troops go camping as often as the boy scouts and the BS troops average about 15 trips year round. So this young man may be camping only once or twice a year at this age in GS but very shortly he might be camping at least once a month year round if he stuck with it.

[emmiedahl]

We don't generally camp in my daughter's troop. That would be a non-issue for us. I am more concerned about the general atmosphere of the meetings and activities.

If they included the boy, he would probably grow tired of it quickly. Or, he would fight to get the Girl Power curriculum changed to Child Power or something. :D

[Terrie]

And as far as boys joining the Girl Scouts, haven't girls been able to join the Boy Scouts for years?

Not in the US. Private organization, they can discriminate. Ironically, a few years ago, when there was a local case of a girl trying to join the Boy Scouts (she thought they had cooler uniforms and merit badges), there was a quote from the local GS org about "Anyone can be a Girl Scout. Even a boy."

[CanadianHippie]

In the US, I have no problem with boys joining the Girl Scouts, in Canada, I kinda wish that it was just "the scouts".

But really, considering you have to be willing to support a homophobic, religiously intolerant organization to put your boys in boy scouts in the US I have nothing against parents wanting to enroll their son's in a more open minded organization like the the Girl scouts (yes I know there are other organizations in the US, but girl scouts is part of a wider, international group which holds international events). That being said, I think the boy needs an education on what the Girl Scouts do, since they are often doing less 'girl' things and more 'boy' things.

[Guest Anonymous]

My daughter is currently a girl scout and her troop has yet to do any "girly" things in the 2 years she has been involved. In fact her first badge she ever earned was a business-wise badge that she earned by creating her own "business". The second badge was for learning about first aid. Sure at some meetings they do crafts that may be more geared to young girls but more often then not they don't.

I personally don't see it as a big deal for boys to join Girl Scouts.

[BlackHawk]

I think it's awesome he wants to join. If he identifies with girls more than boys let him. It's not going to kill anyone. And I doubt he will try to change the "girl power" slogan to "child power"... not everyone is out to shit like that. Why do we, as a society, still feel the need to divide our children on gender lines? Why is that so important? They are children.

[emmiedahl]

I think the issue for me would be that patriarchy exists in the modern world and I see Girl Scouts as one of the non-patriarchal "safe" spaces for girls to learn and grow. Including boys might change that dynamic. I understand why a boy would want to join, and I think he has a legal right to do so, but it will change the nature of the group.

[browncoatslytherin]

I think the issue for me would be that patriarchy exists in the modern world and I see Girl Scouts as one of the non-patriarchal "safe" spaces for girls to learn and grow. Including boys might change that dynamic. I understand why a boy would want to join, and I think he has a legal right to do so, but it will change the nature of the group.

though perhaps, if he is surrounded by girls who have strong opinions about gender equality and the like, maybe that would influence his attitudes and actions. just a thought.

[emmiedahl]

I think we get into an interesting situation. Do we make an oppressed group include members of the oppressing group in the interest of fairness or education? I don't know. There are moral and legal issues here that go beyond my personal desire to keep GS for girls. If the boys are given an equal vote, then there is a good chance it will change the entire experience.

I know many boys are lovely people who do not wish to oppress women, but nonetheless, girls tend to take charge less and act more like a stereotype when boys are present. There is a powerful societal pressure at work.

[Austin]

I admit to rather dissonant feelings on the male group/female group thing in general. There are all-girls schools and all-boys schools, for instance. On one hand, that seems exclusionary and discriminatory, but some educational studies have indicated that both boys and girls do better academically and otherwise when in single gender schools. So. . . I don't know.

Closer to home, I have a group of women that I meet with very regularly. We're not a "closed group", as sometimes someone will bring a [female] friend and she'll end up as part of the group, too. People come and go as life allows to some extent, but the core group remains the same. Point being, I can't imagine anyone would be all too happy if someone brought along their husband (and one "visitor" did actually ask if she could once"). We didn't say "No!", but it made me (and others) feel squirmy. Personally speaking, that is my safe "woman time", where I can say what I want and be empowered by the presence of other women. I don't hate men (obviously), but I need woman time. I live with four guys day in and day out, and believe me when I say "I need it".

My husband meets regularly with a group of all men. They fell together by happenstance some years ago, and have evolved over the years to be a little more formal, actually coming up with some boundaries such as confidentiality, etc., especially as the group grew (I think there are 12 now). There is no rule that a woman couldn't attend, but I think it would make them feel equally squirmy. They are NOT MRA types (at all!) or smear-bear-fat-on-their-chests-and-howl-at-the-moon guys. They have diversity in terms of race and orientation, but they are pretty much a bunch of middle-aged guys who get together and have some beers and talk about what's on their minds. Very much like my "woman time".

Now I know this isn't exactly analogous to very structured groups like scouts. I do believe that girls should be able to join any sports team or any organization that receives any funding from the government or United Way or whatever. And if a boys' group receives some sort of benefit or privilege that is not present in the corresponding girls' group (or there is no corresponding girls' group), then I think that's a problem (yay, Title IV, imperfectly as it is applied).

On the other hand, I think it's okay for males and females to have their own bonding and "safe" places. So yeah, definitely have some cognitive dissonance going on here. . .

[Destiny]

I admit to rather dissonant feelings on the male group/female group thing in general. There are all-girls schools and all-boys schools, for instance. On one hand, that seems exclusionary and discriminatory, but some educational studies have indicated that both boys and girls do better academically and otherwise when in single gender schools. So. . . I don't know.

(snip)

Now I know this isn't exactly analogous to very structured groups like scouts. I do believe that girls should be able to join any sports team or any organization that receives any funding from the government or United Way or whatever. And if a boys' group receives some sort of benefit or privilege that is not present in the corresponding girls' group (or there is no corresponding girls' group), then I think that's a problem (yay, Title IV, imperfectly as it is applied).

On the other hand, I think it's okay for males and females to have their own bonding and "safe" places. So yeah, definitely have some cognitive dissonance going on here. . .

As an adult woman who was a girl scout for 10 years, all I can say is THIS!!!

In my circle of close friends that I talk to every day, there is a gay man, a m-f trans-in-progress, and a woman. I have no problem with trans people, and it pisses me the eff off when those friends are treated differently by society, but I also agree that bringing in someone of the opposite sex alters a group dynamic. Then again, I don't really remember having all that much of a gender identity in place really as a Brownie, so I'm not sure if it would have affected me at all.

Basically, I just used a lot of words to say THIS again.

Edited to clarify my thoughts a little.

[emmiedahl]

I am having some cognitive dissonance as well. My boys are in Boy Scouting and although it seems similar to GS on the surface, it is way different. The emphasis in BS is on learning 'manly' skills and choosing 'wholesome' activities. The emphasis in GS is on interpersonal relationships and feminism. GS activities are organized so that the girls feel powerful and proud, while the BS activities tend to be skill-oriented. In addition, BS is a very conservative, religious group while GS is liberal and emphasizes that all beliefs are equally valid. Very different. They cannot be considered equivalent activities.

eta: my point, which is that I understand why a parent would want their son in GS.

[clibbyjo]

I do sign my daughter up for all the "girls in science,math and technology classes" which are just for girls, so I can see the points of the "girls only" things as well.

I was one of the Roots and Shoots leaders a few years ago. We had boys and girls and all different ages,but most of us have both boys and girls and its easier to just have a group that includes them all. R&S fit more with the kind of scouts we wanted and we liked the message,(environmental based)

My homeschool group is getting a new dad in a week or two. We all know him from playgroup and the UU and he is the only dad who has ever fit with our group of women. Once we were discussing who has dinner waiting for their husbands when they get home from work. He said "I have dinner waiting for my wife . She brings home the bacon and I fry it up in a pan." After that, he was pretty much "one of the girls" , but if anyone else would try to bring their husband in we wouldn't like it.

[desertvixen]

It is a fairly liberal organization that teaches tolerance and acceptance. The fact that it is a female-dominated environment encourages young girls to be in leadership positions within their troop. Men and boys sometimes take over when you let them in the group; in our troop, the girls decide what they are working on next by organizing a vote.

I see it as a feminist space. That is what makes it awesome.

I agree with both of these. In fact, on the way home from our last Daisy meeting I actually gave my five year old a brief and age-appropriate definition for feminism.

The emphasis in GS is on interpersonal relationships and feminism. GS activities are organized so that the girls feel powerful and proud, while the BS activities tend to be skill-oriented. In addition, BS is a very conservative, religious group while GS is liberal and emphasizes that all beliefs are equally valid. Very different. They cannot be considered equivalent activities.

I say the experiment probably won't hurt anything, so we'll see when we move up to CO in March 12.

[Bookworm89]

I haven't read all the replies yet so I may be repeating some things.

When I was growing up in B.C. I went to Girl Guides and I remember it being only girls (there was some people trying to change it to co-ed like boy scouts but it failed at the time I was in it).

One of the things I really like was that it was only girls, we went camping 3-5 times a year and as a Pathfinder went serious camping (snow camping, where we dug a place in the snow, put a tarp over us and slept for 2 nights in it). The boy scouts my brother was a part of was sleeping in tents with heaters 2 weekends later because the boys complained about being cold...

While I don't think boys should be excluded by law, in this the boy joining because he likes "girl things" doesn't sit well with me because, In my group at least, we didn't do many "girly" things we just did what the boy scouts would have done and more but with an only girl slant. Just my 2 cents.

[QAF_Rocks]

The news report said that Bobby identifies as a girl, dresses as a girl, and also enjoys "girly" things. I'm sure he sees other little girls having fun in Girl Scouts, and that's why he wants to join. I see nothing wrong with this at all. Transgender/gender-variant children have a hard enough time in society as it is. If the Girl Scouts can help make Bobby's path a little easier, I'm all for that!

[IceQueen]

I did girl scouts in the early 1990's in the South. We met at a very conservative Baptist church and did tons and girly crafts. I specifically remember having a cake baking contest and going to the zoo, and we never went camping as a troop. Lots of the people in our town could be classified "fundie lite" and they like to keep women in their place ;)

[Kaylee]

The news report said that Bobby identifies as a girl, dresses as a girl, and also enjoys "girly" things. I'm sure he sees other little girls having fun in Girl Scouts, and that's why he wants to join. I see nothing wrong with this at all. Transgender/gender-variant children have a hard enough time in society as it is. If the Girl Scouts can help make Bobby's path a little easier, I'm all for that!

This is what I'm wondering. I know people have some issues with gender identity and young children, but if he's identifying as a girl, then that's different than a boy who identifies primarily as a boy wanted to join. I probably screwed the pronouns up there, but I think a child should be able to join based on the gender they identify with, not necessarily based on the parts and chromosomes they were born with.

I get what some people are saying about women's only and girl-empowering groups and spaces, but it all seems really similar to the feminist debate on trans women vs "women born women" (and similar debates over defining "women" in some of the newer Roller Derby rules). Obviously, most children are not going to be post-transition, but I think its important to look at gender identity in cases like this rather than saying a person should be banned because she was born with a penis.

[Patsy]

This is what I'm wondering. I know people have some issues with gender identity and young children, but if he's identifying as a girl, then that's different than a boy who identifies primarily as a boy wanted to join.

I think knowing what the situation exactly is would help square away a lot of the above concerns expressed. From some of the kind of ambiguous wording in articles and in actual quotes, yeah, we're left not knowing.

[CanadianHippie]

This is what I'm wondering. I know people have some issues with gender identity and young children, but if he's identifying as a girl, then that's different than a boy who identifies primarily as a boy wanted to join. I probably screwed the pronouns up there, but I think a child should be able to join based on the gender they identify with, not necessarily based on the parts and chromosomes they were born with.

I get what some people are saying about women's only and girl-empowering groups and spaces, but it all seems really similar to the feminist debate on trans women vs "women born women" (and similar debates over defining "women" in some of the newer Roller Derby rules). Obviously, most children are not going to be post-transition, but I think its important to look at gender identity in cases like this rather than saying a person should be banned because she was born with a penis.

One of the important things to consider about this too, is that for trans children, they often are well liked by other children of the gender they identify with, and are more likely to have problems with children of the same biological sex. So a boy who identifies as a girl is going to do better socially in a group with other girls.

[Guest Anonymous]

This is what I'm wondering. I know people have some issues with gender identity and young children, but if he's identifying as a girl, then that's different than a boy who identifies primarily as a boy wanted to join. I probably screwed the pronouns up there, but I think a child should be able to join based on the gender they identify with, not necessarily based on the parts and chromosomes they were born with.

I get what some people are saying about women's only and girl-empowering groups and spaces, but it all seems really similar to the feminist debate on trans women vs "women born women" (and similar debates over defining "women" in some of the newer Roller Derby rules). Obviously, most children are not going to be post-transition, but I think its important to look at gender identity in cases like this rather than saying a person should be banned because she was born with a penis.

Thanks for this Raine, I agree. I was trying to work out how to say it but you've done a better job than I could have.

I know that Bobby was quoted in the article as saying "I like girl things" but the kid is only seven years old. Discovering that you are trans must be a pretty complicated feeling for a child that young to communicate. If Bobby is dressing and living as a girl, identifies as a girl, and feels like a girl, as far as I'm concerned Bobby is a girl.

[emmiedahl]

The article I read did not mention that he identified as a girl, merely that he was interested in girl stuff.

In my opinion, if he is identifying as a girl, that is an entirely different matter. I believe in the basic human right to choose your gender identity. If he is identifying as a girl, he is actually a she, and she belongs in the accepting, tolerant, feminist atmosphere of Girl Scouts. If this were my daughter's troop, I would be willing, even fight to have a transgender child included.

[Guest Anonymous]

The article I read did not mention that he identified as a girl, merely that he was interested in girl stuff.

In my opinion, if he is identifying as a girl, that is an entirely different matter. I believe in the basic human right to choose your gender identity. If he is identifying as a girl, he is actually a she, and she belongs in the accepting, tolerant, feminist atmosphere of Girl Scouts. If this were my daughter's troop, I would be willing, even fight to have a transgender child included.

But the issue is not clear cut and so the challenge to GS is: could you cut some slack to a child who is still processing issues of gender identity? He is seven and not yet fully articulate. But he says he likes to wear 'girl' clothes and 'do girl stuff'. He wants to be a GS please. Do human rights extend to children before they are able to use pronouns in a way that gives them legitimate group membership?

[Katiebug]

I know that Bobby was quoted in the article as saying "I like girl things" but the kid is only seven years old. Discovering that you are trans must be a pretty complicated feeling for a child that young to communicate. If Bobby is dressing and living as a girl, identifies as a girl, and feels like a girl, as far as I'm concerned Bobby is a girl.

In other articles that Bobby's mother and grandmother referred to him consistently with male pronouns - "he" and "his". If Bobby identifies as a girl, then his own family needs to treat him as such too, and that includes using "she" and "her". Maybe they could switch her name to Bobbie or Bobbi as a more feminine spelling.

Kudos to his family for being generally supportive, though! I'm sure many families are not and that must lead to a lot of repressed anger and frustration among those who are transgender.

If a child was biologically male but identified and lived as female I'd have no problem with the child joining my kid's Girl Scout troop. I would have an issue with a boy who identified as a boy but wanted to do "girl" things.