Colorado boy joins Girl Scouts

[NicAine]

http://www.9news.com/news/article/226301/339/Boy-wanting-to-join-Girl-Scouts-told-no

Thoughts?

[Patsy]

These days, more parents are allowing their kids to make their own decisions about gender expression earlier. I think it's a good thing.

I think some people would react with the worry that the child will change before they're really sure and later regret that decision; apart from the rare case of fourteen-year-olds being allowed to suppress their hormones (to stop puberty from effecting irreversible changes, that is. I have never heard of a kid starting actual trans hormones to start the changes they'd want to transition), every type of pre-18 choice that is allowed simply lets the child be. From what I can tell this mother is just letting her child be who her child is, and not trying to decide what that means for them.

So... good thing?

[Guest Anonymous]

Welcome to fj, NicAine - do you have any thoughts on this? What is it you want our opinions on - the fact that the first answer was 'no', or that the final outcome was 'yes'? Or that the story was taken to the press?

A good thing, IMO, that he was allowed to join. On the basis of the news presented, I give the initial leader a pass. Opinions and policies on these matters are developing rapidly and adults in unusual situations will get it wrong sometimes.

I couldn't resist checking out the British bigot rag to see if we had caught up with the story: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -join.html Gotta laugh at some of the pathetic commenters: be very afraid Girl Scouts, some of these people are so cross with your decision to accept Bobby, that they will NEVER BUY GIRL SCOUT COOKIES AGAIN!!!!1111! :twisted:

[Sola]

The comments don't surprise me at all. Like you said, the DailyFail is our equivalent of Fox News here. Quite frankly I wouldn't even use that newspaper as emergency toilet paper.

Over here we don't have girl and boy scouts, we just have scouts. Girls and boys join the same troop. I find it strange that in the US you still have sex segregated troops.

[Guest Anonymous]

The comments don't surprise me at all. Like you said, the DailyFail is our equivalent of Fox News here. Quite frankly I wouldn't even use that newspaper as emergency toilet paper.

Over here we don't have girl and boy scouts, we just have scouts. Girls and boys join the same troop. I find it strange that in the US you still have sex segregated troops.

We still have Girl Guides, don't we? GG used to be the female equivalent of Boy Scouts - but is Scouting for both boys and girls now?

Edit: OK, I can see that the Scouts has been co-ed here since 1991. Girl Guiding must have continued on its own as a separate organisation?

[Sola]

We still have Girl Guides, don't we? GG used to be the female equivalent of Boy Scouts - but is Scouting for both boys and girls now?

Edit: OK, I can see that the Scouts has been co-ed here since 1991. Girl Guiding must have continued on its own as a separate organisation?

Yes we have Guides. Boys can join, whether they have is another matter. Legislation here, I think, ensures that.

[Guest Anonymous]

Hmm, it looks from this like boys can't join the UK Girl Guides. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -away.html

Huge apologies though for the source.... I will look for other sources later.

[Sola]

That is surprising. I would have thought our equal opportunities legislation would have prevented that.

[NicAine]

Welcome to fj, NicAine - do you have any thoughts on this? What is it you want our opinions on - the fact that the first answer was 'no', or that the final outcome was 'yes'? Or that the story was taken to the press?

Hallo.

I have numerous and conflicting thoughts on this. I posted here because I figured I would get rational, well thought out points of view on the issue. The GS leader group that I originally read it on has turned into a massive flouncing mess with many "This is the last straw, I'm leaving" posts. Plus I thought it was something Free Jingerites might be interested in.

As a person, I applaud GSColorado and agree with the decision to accept any girl into the organization. We should accept the parents word that the child is a girl and shouldn't need proof. Panty checks to verify seem silly. However, THIS child's parent refers to him as "he" and calls him a boy. Should a boy be allowed in Girl scouts? There are co-ed organizations like Campfire Girls available. So that's an issue for me.

Also, he says he likes "girl things". Girl Scouts as an organization was founded primarily to offer the exact opposite to girls. Camping and sports and outdoors as well as leadership and equality. It's not an afterschool playdate for barbies. Will he really be interested in the actual program or does he want to join because its a "girl thing" as well?

But all that isn't really a huge deal end the end. You get girls wanting to join for the social aspect and not for the program too. They just generally quit attending when their expectations don't line up with what is actually offered. However THIS requires policy change, and again, I'm worried about the possible consequences of that.

And finally, as a leader, the logistical and financial nitemare of planning an overnight is making my head hurt. Many camps are not set up to accomodate males. The bathhouses are for girls only. So you'd have to hire a port-a-john. My Council policy states that anytime you camp, males need to be a minimum of 200 yards from the girls. So you'd have to rent an extra tent across camp, assuming there is one available, away from girls. Dealing with an extra chaperone, extra costs, extra paperwork.... Does his parent get billed with the additional expense? Or do you take it from cookie money? If the cost per girl is $15 for the weekend, and his cost would be $215 due to port-a-john rental, is it fair for the troop to eat the extra $200? Do you exclude him from coming? This is assuming that there are no further insurance issues to deal with as well.

I guess my applauding human side is warring with my screaming leader side. I think its great that GS are openminded enough to include him. But would I want him in my troop?

So again, thoughts?

[CynicMom]

Question: Who says that boys have to be 200 yards from girls? Why would there be such a policy if the assumption was that no boys would be allowed? Why couldn't you just sat a specific time for the boy to use the toilet when no girls were in there (ie: you may shower at 5am before the bio-girls wake up and pee in the woods)? It really doesn't seem like you'd have to do much accommodating. It's that same mindset that makes Doug think he couldn't possibly bring women on safari expeditions because they'd need sooooo much extra logistics.

As a young girl I absolutely perceived Girl Scouts to be a "girly" organization. While the boy scouts go into the woods to play with army knives the girl scouts get plastic utensils. While the boy scouts learn to set traps and tie knots the girl scouts learn salesmanship. You know, to prepare them for future jobs in retail.

[Guest Anonymous]

Hallo.

I have numerous and conflicting thoughts on this. I posted here because I figured I would get rational, well thought out points of view on the issue. The GS leader group that I originally read it on has turned into a massive flouncing mess with many "This is the last straw, I'm leaving" posts. Plus I thought it was something Free Jingerites might be interested in.

As a person, I applaud GSColorado and agree with the decision to accept any girl into the organization. We should accept the parents word that the child is a girl and shouldn't need proof. Panty checks to verify seem silly. However, THIS child's parent refers to him as "he" and calls him a boy. Should a boy be allowed in Girl scouts? There are co-ed organizations like Campfire Girls available. So that's an issue for me.

Also, he says he likes "girl things". Girl Scouts as an organization was founded primarily to offer the exact opposite to girls. Camping and sports and outdoors as well as leadership and equality. It's not an afterschool playdate for barbies. Will he really be interested in the actual program or does he want to join because its a "girl thing" as well?

But all that isn't really a huge deal end the end. You get girls wanting to join for the social aspect and not for the program too. They just generally quit attending when their expectations don't line up with what is actually offered. However THIS requires policy change, and again, I'm worried about the possible consequences of that.

And finally, as a leader, the logistical and financial nitemare of planning an overnight is making my head hurt. Many camps are not set up to accomodate males. The bathhouses are for girls only. So you'd have to hire a port-a-john. My Council policy states that anytime you camp, males need to be a minimum of 200 yards from the girls. So you'd have to rent an extra tent across camp, assuming there is one available, away from girls. Dealing with an extra chaperone, extra costs, extra paperwork.... Does his parent get billed with the additional expense? Or do you take it from cookie money? If the cost per girl is $15 for the weekend, and his cost would be $215 due to port-a-john rental, is it fair for the troop to eat the extra $200? Do you exclude him from coming? This is assuming that there are no further insurance issues to deal with as well.

I guess my applauding human side is warring with my screaming leader side. I think its great that GS are openminded enough to include him. But would I want him in my troop?

So again, thoughts?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I have some questions about the parts of your text that I have emboldened:

Policy Change: it sounds as though the policy change has already happened according to GS Headquarters - do you mean it will require effort to implement the existing policy change or is there further policy development required?

Extra charges: I too would be grateful for clarification on the '200yards from girls issue'. Is that rule in place to stop girls and boys from having sex at camp - if so, does the Council know that girls and girls, and boys and boys have sex together too? I also don't get why a boy can't use the same toilet as a girl. Presumably all children are taught to close the door and clean up properly when they go.... ? Well, they are in my house, anyway. What is the issue there? Presumably 'panty checks' should be out of bounds for kids as well as adults!

As for 'extra charges' generally: presumably all sorts of scouts bring differing needs to the table. Who picks up the extra bill if one child has allergies and needs supervision or different meals? What if a girl has a disability or requires extra care? What if someone falls sick during camp? Does each child get a individual bill in those circumstances and/or does the online leader forum rumble with complaints about child x's allergies eating into the cookie fund money.

What is the GS Headquarters saying about all this? Presumably they have a remit to help their leaders understand and deal with policy changes?

[yetanothermeg]

My dad used to chaperone my girl scout camp-outs and he had to sleep 200 ft away from us too. He would just bring a little pup tent. This was in the 80s. I think the 200 ft sleeping rule was put in place with adult male chaperones in mind, I'm guessing as part of their sexual-abuse prevention policy. I doubt that policy was put in place with little boys in mind.

And as far as boys joining the Girl Scouts, haven't girls been able to join the Boy Scouts for years? Personally, I enjoyed having a girl's only "space" where girls could learn to be leaders, etc. We went camping, I remember doling a car care badge where we learned to change the oil, jumpstart, etc, I remember doing a math badge too. I went to a co-ed school and in jr high the PE classes went co-ed for "equality". When I was in 7th grade it was all girls, 8th grade the school changed to co-ed. The result? The boys, for the most part, dominated all the games. BUT that was in the days before we knew so much about gender-identity and how that is formed, can be seperate from physical sex, etc. Sooo, while I prefered girls only, what it means to be a "girl" isn't what it used to be.

[NicAine]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I have some questions about the parts of your text that I have emboldened:

Policy Change: it sounds as though the policy change has already happened according to GS Headquarters - do you mean it will require effort to implement the existing policy change or is there further policy development required?

Extra charges: I too would be grateful for clarification on the '200yards from girls issue'. Is that rule in place to stop girls and boys from having sex at camp - if so, does the Council know that girls and girls, and boys and boys have sex together too? I also don't get why a boy can't use the same toilet as a girl. Presumably all children are taught to close the door and clean up properly when they go.... ? Well, they are in my house, anyway. What is the issue there? Presumably 'panty checks' should be out of bounds for kids as well as adults!

As for 'extra charges' generally: presumably all sorts of scouts bring differing needs to the table. Who picks up the extra bill if one child has allergies and needs supervision or different meals? What if a girl has a disability or requires extra care? What if someone falls sick during camp? Does each child get a individual bill in those circumstances and/or does the online leader forum rumble with complaints about child x's allergies eating into the cookie fund money.

What is the GS Headquarters saying about all this? Presumably they have a remit to help their leaders understand and deal with policy changes?

Re: policy change

GSUSA is made up of several councils. Each council is fairly autonomous. GS Colorado has apparently made policy on this, but National has not. So further policy would need to be both made and implemented.

And actually GS Colorado has affirmed they accept any and all GIRLS, as long as their parents and the child both identify the child as a girl. The child in question still identifies as a boy. So the policy would need to be made to allow a BOY in Girl Scouts. And that would be a slippery slope, wouldn't it? A cute little 7 year old who wants to have tea parties is entirely different than the 14 year old boy who uses this case as precedent, because he wants to go camping with a dozen cute girls....

Re: 200 yard rule

Currently is in place for male chaperones and volunteers. It is to protect the girls privacy and from any untoward behavior. (It also protects the men from any accusations. And for perspective, women leaders are also not allowed to share tents or cabins with the girls. They even have to stay in different hotel rooms, as well. Again for privacy and protection against accusations.) Sex at camp really isn't an issue since male tagalongs aren't allowed to attend campouts.

Re: bathhouses

I assume its like any public bath. You have boy bathrooms, you have girl bathrooms. At camp, the girls change in the open part, because its too cramped in the toilet stalls and because the shower stalls are wet. If we were talking single bathrooms, that would be fine to share, but with multiple girls using the bathhouse at once, its more of an issue.

Re: costs

If a girl has an allergy, we can typically work around it. Can't have peanut butter, let's have egg salad for lunch. Or allergic to bees, carry an epipen. If a girl has an accident at camp, Girl Scout insurance would cover it. While not all of the cabins and tents are ADA accessible, there are a couple that are. If a girl needs a dedicated care giver, generally a parent will stay. A food allergy, if the troop can't accomodate, can generally be provided by the parents. It's generally a case by case basis for things like that. I guess it would be in this case too. It's just much bigger accomodations would need to be made.

(And yes, if Suzy needed a dedicated caregiver, and her mom went along, there would probably be grumbling from other girls in the troop or their parents. "Suzy's mom gets to go, why can't I?" Unfortunately. And it would probably lead to a vent on the leader groups. Probably.)

[clibbyjo]

If the boy wants to join the girl scouts,then let him. Camping is what, once a year? I was in girlscouts and I only remember one camping trip and the moms all slept in the room with us(it was a big lodge). Nothing is going to go on there.

I have had a similar thing with my daughter playing hockey in an all boys league. It is hard to be the only girl(or boy) in a group you want to be in. The boys had a sleepover last year and obviously I was not going to let my 11 year old girl go to some 12 year old boys house and sleep in their basement with the whole team. If it was a big,open thing with parents going, I wouldn't have a problem. My daughter came and left hockey dressed in her clothes. She stayed in the locker room as the boys dressed.(from ages 8-11)because that is when the coaches talked and planned. The boys did not care,she did not care, noone was ever naked and she has 2 brothers so its not like she hasn't seen boxers before. She rarely talked to the boys,she was just there to play hockey. The boys all talked to her at practice, but she was not friends with them.

If this girl scout boy relates better to the girls, he should be accepted as one. Girls are more accepting and I think that boy would fit in fine.

[BravaAmica]

Question: Who says that boys have to be 200 yards from girls? Why would there be such a policy if the assumption was that no boys would be allowed? Why couldn't you just sat a specific time for the boy to use the toilet when no girls were in there (ie: you may shower at 5am before the bio-girls wake up and pee in the woods)? It really doesn't seem like you'd have to do much accommodating. It's that same mindset that makes Doug think he couldn't possibly bring women on safari expeditions because they'd need sooooo much extra logistics.

As a young girl I absolutely perceived Girl Scouts to be a "girly" organization. While the boy scouts go into the woods to play with army knives the girl scouts get plastic utensils. While the boy scouts learn to set traps and tie knots the girl scouts learn salesmanship. You know, to prepare them for future jobs in retail.

I don't know who you troop leader was, but I can assure you, in my brownie and GS troops, we did very similar things as the boy scouts. In fact, our camp site won contests every year I was in the troop. Sure, we did "girly" things like sewing and cooking but we also did orienteering, recycling, cooking our dinner in the sun, first aid, advanced first aid, and dry camping (where you have to bring everything in- water, food, ect. No toilets, either). We also had women doctors, lawyers, ect come in and volunteer with our troop- give a little presentation and help with our meeting and craft that day.

Girl scouts today can get badges in personal finance, geocaching and being a locavore, to name a few.

I wish the boy scouts were as welcoming. I really do. DS wants to join but we just can't. We thought about it, and even talked to the local troop leader. But we cannot allow DS to be part of such a bigoted organization.

[Guest Anonymous]

Re: policy change

GSUSA is made up of several councils. Each council is fairly autonomous. GS Colorado has apparently made policy on this, but National has not. So further policy would need to be both made and implemented.

And actually GS Colorado has affirmed they accept any and all GIRLS, as long as their parents and the child both identify the child as a girl. The child in question still identifies as a boy. So the policy would need to be made to allow a BOY in Girl Scouts. And that would be a slippery slope, wouldn't it? A cute little 7 year old who wants to have tea parties is entirely different than the 14 year old boy who uses this case as precedent, because he wants to go camping with a dozen cute girls....

From what GSColorado has said they have already decided to accept this boy, which implies their policy has already changed. To me their policy makes sense. Individual awareness and expression of sexuality and gender tends to develop over time. I think it is reasonable to accept a child's expression of 'wanting to do girl things' without jumping on them for not meeting trangender criteria because of the child's failure to use the "correct" pronouns.

I don't see this as being a 'slippery slope'. I have looked on the GS forums now and there seems to be a lot of scaremongering along these lines. As ClibbyJo says, certainly as children reach puberty, there would need to be greater consideration given to how changing rooms/bathrooms are organised, but it would be a shame to deny a transgender child the opportunity to attend group activities because of fears of imaginary 14-year old predators somehow being able to 'take advantage' of the situation down the line.

Re: 200 yard rule

Currently is in place for male chaperones and volunteers. It is to protect the girls privacy and from any untoward behavior. (It also protects the men from any accusations. And for perspective, women leaders are also not allowed to share tents or cabins with the girls. They even have to stay in different hotel rooms, as well. Again for privacy and protection against accusations.) Sex at camp really isn't an issue since male tagalongs aren't allowed to attend campouts.

So the 200yd rule isn't yet in place for boys. It becomes therefore a matter for discussion, but is not yet an actual stumbling block because the rules in place are currently applicable only to adults.

Re: bathhouses

I assume its like any public bath. You have boy bathrooms, you have girl bathrooms. At camp, the girls change in the open part, because its too cramped in the toilet stalls and because the shower stalls are wet. If we were talking single bathrooms, that would be fine to share, but with multiple girls using the bathhouse at once, its more of an issue.

Re: costs

If a girl has an allergy, we can typically work around it. Can't have peanut butter, let's have egg salad for lunch. Or allergic to bees, carry an epipen. If a girl has an accident at camp, Girl Scout insurance would cover it. While not all of the cabins and tents are ADA accessible, there are a couple that are. If a girl needs a dedicated care giver, generally a parent will stay. A food allergy, if the troop can't accomodate, can generally be provided by the parents. It's generally a case by case basis for things like that. I guess it would be in this case too. It's just much bigger accomodations would need to be made.

(And yes, if Suzy needed a dedicated caregiver, and her mom went along, there would probably be grumbling from other girls in the troop or their parents. "Suzy's mom gets to go, why can't I?" Unfortunately. And it would probably lead to a vent on the leader groups. Probably.)

When I was talking about extra costs, what I had in mind were children whose needs necessarily incurred quite large costs. Some children's allergies are so severe that they need a round the clock carer. Some children's disabilities mean they need equipment and structural changes to be made for them. And of course there are some issues, like you say, that just need a bit of creative thinking and vigilance. I don't see why any of these issues can't be dealt with on a case by case basis, particularly if there is sufficient backup available from the National organisation, who, because of the economies of scale at national level, could offer help and advice to local volunteers in a more cost effective way than if each leader dealt with the issues alone.

I think a lot of the alarmed messages I have seen by perusing GS forums this morning is a normal reaction to change - individuals are worried about the impact this may have on them and need guidance on how to manage the new policies. Some of the comments are however very nasty and bigoted and it is just a shame that those people get to hide behind screen names, because I am sure there are many parents who would want to remove their children from that influence, if they knew how their child's leader was responding to this situation.

[NicAine]

I don't see why any of these issues can't be dealt with on a case by case basis, particularly if there is sufficient backup available from the National organisation, who, because of the economies of scale at national level, could offer help and advice to local volunteers in a more cost effective way than if each leader dealt with the issues alone.

I guess that right there is my biggest problem with this. This will be something we have to deal with nationwide, but National has already put out a comment on Facebook saying that its not their problem, each council knows its membership best and will do what is best for its own community. As a leader, we'll get no support from National. Many councils won't be in a position to offer help and advice. And its all on the volunteer to figure out how to implement and accommodate, as well as deal with any criticism or real concerns.

I have no issue with the boy joining. I've joked that my son will be a girl scout too. I think GSUSA is a much better organization than BSUSA. But I am having a problem figuring out how to get thru the red tape and paperwork to make it work. It's not my issue to deal with yet, but it will only be a matter of time before I have to answer these questions.

[Guest Anonymous]

Sex at camp really isn't an issue since male tagalongs aren't allowed to attend campouts.

Yeah, because there no gay girls participating in Girl Scouts. In fact, I'm not even sure that women who have sex with women exist! :roll:

[Lostie]

Oh look, our favorite non-thinking housewife has gotten a hold of this information.

thinkinghousewife.com/wp/2011/10/goodbye-girl-scouts/

My personal favorite line come from a commenter Texanne and says: "In trying to avoid the creepiness of the Girl Scouts, we enrolled our daughters in youth sports, never suspecting that this activity would so rapidly become infected by feminism" Pure hilarity.

[NicAine]

Yeah, because there no gay girls participating in Girl Scouts. In fact, I'm not even sure that women who have sex with women exist! :roll:

Mea culpa.

I was responding to a specific point. But I shouldn't make generalized statements like that.

To be honest, there's no sex in camp because I'm dealing with Daisies and Brownies, and its not even on my radar. (k-3rd grades) And with adults and leaders 4 to a tent, that prospect isn't all that appealing for me.

[emmiedahl]

My impression is that the boy is not identifying as a girl, merely that he is interested in girl stuff.

I am a Girl Scout mom. I can see that the boy has a *right* to join, but I also think it will ruin the experience if it becomes truly co-ed. My daughter has learned so many things from GS. It is a fairly liberal organization that teaches tolerance and acceptance. The fact that it is a female-dominated environment encourages young girls to be in leadership positions within their troop. Men and boys sometimes take over when you let them in the group; in our troop, the girls decide what they are working on next by organizing a vote. We have done "Plans for the Planet", which is an exercise in coming up with ecological solutions, oceanography. This is not a baking or sewing organization. It is teaching girls to make plans independent of men and to pursue them, to follow through and to feel the satisfaction of a job well-done. They make financial goals and decide how many cookies they need to sell to fund them, and then do it. These are little girls, that is an amazing amount of power and they handle it well. I am fine with accepting a transgendered child who identifies as female--they need to be a strong woman too! But bringing in a herd of boys? I don't know. I see it as a feminist space. That is what makes it awesome.

[longskirts]

I don't like the idea of someone joining for the "girl things". The point of a girls' organization should not be to reaffirm the participants' femininity and gender identity.

[Kitchen Princess]

I was a Campfire USA leader (boys and girls together--it is no longer just girls, and was the first to integrate, back in the '70s). I don't see the problem with boys wanting to join Girl Scouts, and girls joining Boy Scouts (though why anyone would want to join Boy Scouts is beyond me).

I can see where, in our culture, that widespread addition of boys into Girl Scouts could change the flavor of a troop, and make it less girl friendly. But that's not what we're talking about here, and it's not likely to happen. We're talking about one boy who is probably going to stop going when he gets his fill of it. I have seen lots of girls in boys baseball, and eventually it becomes impossible for them to continue to compete (size and speed become more of a factor), and they usually move on to dominate in girls softball. Similarly, a boy in Girl Scouts is going to move on after his interests change again (many little girls don't stick with Girl Scouts, either). And if, for some reason, he decides to stay on through the program, it's probably as good a fit as you'd ever see.

Most little girls want to be with groups of little girls. Most little boys want to be with groups of little boys. The exception proves the rule. Let the occasional kid switch over once in a while. It's not the end of the world. And it's good for everybody, but especially the kid who has a need that only the opposite sex group can fill.

[emmiedahl]

A right wing perspective on the Girl Scouts here. http://www.lifeissues.org/connector/201 ... Scouts.htm

Makes me love them more.

eta: OMG Worst typo ever there!

Central to these changes has been achieving affirmative action for girls visa vie boys.

[Kate]

I have such mixed feelings about this.

At 7 years old, it seems to me like a generous thing to let him join if that's where his heart is, but I wonder if it will take away from the value for the girls if he's still there in the middle-school years?

My own daughter is in that tween stage and for her a large value of her GS-type activities is to have a safe space where she can get together with other girls and talk about stereotypes, issues, choices, and how they relate as girls to the world around them (kind of what Emme Dahl said). I know he's only 7, but his stated reasons right now for wanting to join seem like they're more about reinforcing stereotypical girl behavior than questioning it.

And I'll be honest that I don't know that much about transgender people, but I wonder if he stays with it as a tween if he'll be able to even relate, much less support the other girls in his troop with the issues they face being a middle-school girl. Or maybe I'm wrong and it would be a great addition, I just don't know.

ETA: The analogy I'm thinking of is if a college has a Hispanic organization--if the goal is to do cultural things then it would probably be fine for a white kid from a home with lots of advantages who liked Spanish culture to join and take part (like Brownie Scouts), but if the organization is for 1st generation Hispanic students support each other and be very open about the challenges they face in a majority white school in a very white area it would most likely hurt the dynamics if the same white kid joined.

The thing that's confusing me is that it might be fine for a support group if a first generation kid from a non-Hispanic culture joined the support group because of the shared experiences--and I just don't know if a boy who identifies as a girl shares enough experience with girls who are born girls to make it work?