House of Representatives 5: The Clown Caucus is Throwing Their Toys Out of The Playpen

[GreyhoundFan]

Mike seems to be as corrupt as many other GQPers.  Are we supposed to believe he squirrels money under his mattress?

 

[Xan]

He's a lawyer.  He's probably set up things in trusts so they don't show up.  For example, you can put your home in a trust, your bank account in a trust, and investments in a trust.  

I wouldn't trust this guy to tell the truth if his life depended on it.

[noseybutt]

On 11/3/2023 at 7:33 PM, WatchingTheTireFireBurn said:

 

I saw a headline that some Muslim group is saying "don't vote for bide unless there's a ceasefire" Good god - seriously? you want Trump? Trump of the "muslim ban"  Biden doesn't have the power to make Israel do a ceasefire. Why are people saying stuff like this??? This is how we get whats his name part 2....when the non-magas are all "welll I'm gonna vote 3rd party cuz...I don't love biden"

Not voting for Biden is functionally a vote for orange blob! do you not see this!! 

I just don't understand.  But I keep thinking "surely, people understand this time. SURELY"

Raising my hand from the back of the room.

I am registered independent because I don't like being tied to one party or the other and I have opinions that fall outside the range of both political parties.

The US seems to function best when both parties are healthy. I think we have had ample discussion here as to how and why the Republicans are messed up. It is easier to gloss over the dysfunction with the Democratic Party.  They have been pulled very far to the right to the point that they are no longer effective on many policy points.

Further, congress is such a mess that we are, in many ways, relying on the executive branch for decisions that rightly belong to congress.

Take immigration. Yes, Trump put in a Muslim ban that was tempered by the courts. He put in many horrific policies. Enter Biden. HE HAS DONE VERY LITTLE TO UNDO THE TRUMP LEGACY. For people in the trenches dealing with immigration, very little has changed. It's a cruel, messed up system that nobody wants to fix. Part of this is racism. Part of this is straight up fear that immigrant groups will favor one party or the other. Part of it is the glaring fact that many businesses make hecka money off undocumented people.

We could greatly improve the situation if we put the criminal burden of violating the law on employers. Do immigration raids where you lock up the people profiting. Boom.

Nobody has the political will for that.

I get that voting third party increases the odds of a Trump win. That is blatantly obvious. However, voting for Biden also means business as usual for the Democratic Party. My explanation here is for one policy point--but there are many more. And I don't blame people for tiring of being used by the Democratic Party---voting Democratic but then getting very little in return. If the policy is the same under Trump as under Biden, it makes no sense to continue voting for Biden.

 

[Xan]

6 hours ago, noseybutt said:

If the policy is the same under Trump as under Biden, it makes no sense to continue voting for Biden.

I would agree with you about this on any other election year.  This time, if Trump wins, he won't leave.  We'll have a dictatorship and I don't know how we'll ever get out of it.  He's the worst candidate by far that we've ever had.  I know that Biden has sometimes been a disappointment and, fine, kick the Democrats to the curb in 2028.  2024 is just too important.  If Biden doesn't run, I'll vote for anyone who has a chance to beat Trump.

[noseybutt]

1 hour ago, Xan said:

I would agree with you about this on any other election year.  This time, if Trump wins, he won't leave.  We'll have a dictatorship and I don't know how we'll ever get out of it.  He's the worst candidate by far that we've ever had.  I know that Biden has sometimes been a disappointment and, fine, kick the Democrats to the curb in 2028.  2024 is just too important.  If Biden doesn't run, I'll vote for anyone who has a chance to beat Trump.

Genuine question that I am asking without snark. This is an important topic.

Did you say the same thing in 2020? 

Why or why not?

[WatchingTheTireFireBurn]

38 minutes ago, noseybutt said:

Genuine question that I am asking without snark. This is an important topic.

Did you say the same thing in 2020? 

Why or why not?

2020 wasn't the same as now...but yeah I was gung ho for anybody but trump.

In actual 2020 we didn't know the extent of what's his names plans to overturn the election, including discussion of declaring martial law, we didn't know all the fake elector schemes, we didn't know a lot of the things that have come out.  I think there's a definite shift in importance here.

The immigration situation is not going to be resolved by EITHER party. Period. To say ok whatever I'm not voting for biden because I want immigration reform is absurd. 

It's like if I suddenly declared I won't vote for Biden because he won't push the ERA. What's the ERA? It was an awesome thing that lost political steam. Nobody cares about it now. Nothing will ever be done about it.  I don't blame Biden for that though. I guess I could. and vote independent or green party, split the democratic vote and Trump can do whatever insanity his posse can come up with.

 

No snark back at you - seriously - Are you actually a non-maga republican?

You sound like the many "I'm not that kind of republican"/"independent" I know who say they are independent because they know the republican party has gone insane so they don't want to admit they're republicans. 

Everybody I've ever met who said "both parties have weaknesses" and "I agree with some parts of both parties" turned out to support most of the traditional republican talking points but tended to have liberal friends or live in a liberal town or work in a liberal workplace.

 

 

 

 

[GreyhoundFan]

This is a lengthy, but important read, about Johnson's ties to extremists.

More:

Spoiler

 

 

[apple1]

OK, now we are just starting to see a little bit of light shed on Johnson as Speaker. There is still a lot unknown - like exactly what went on behind closed doors to reject the more expected R options but in a snap of the fingers install this person. Whose chains (or bank accounts or whatever) were being pulled behind the scenes, exactly?

In this whole mess, what happened to truthfulness and honesty? 

[noseybutt]

2 hours ago, WatchingTheTireFireBurn said:

2020 wasn't the same as now...but yeah I was gung ho for anybody but trump.

In actual 2020 we didn't know the extent of what's his names plans to overturn the election, including discussion of declaring martial law, we didn't know all the fake elector schemes, we didn't know a lot of the things that have come out.  I think there's a definite shift in importance here.

The immigration situation is not going to be resolved by EITHER party. Period. To say ok whatever I'm not voting for biden because I want immigration reform is absurd. 

It's like if I suddenly declared I won't vote for Biden because he won't push the ERA. What's the ERA? It was an awesome thing that lost political steam. Nobody cares about it now. Nothing will ever be done about it.  I don't blame Biden for that though. I guess I could. and vote independent or green party, split the democratic vote and Trump can do whatever insanity his posse can come up with.

 

No snark back at you - seriously - Are you actually a non-maga republican?

You sound like the many "I'm not that kind of republican"/"independent" I know who say they are independent because they know the republican party has gone insane so they don't want to admit they're republicans. 

Everybody I've ever met who said "both parties have weaknesses" and "I agree with some parts of both parties" turned out to support most of the traditional republican talking points but tended to have liberal friends or live in a liberal town or work in a liberal workplace.

 

 

 

 

I have occasionally voted Republican in local elections (eg school board) but I can’t recall ever having voted for a Republican president. 

The fact that voting something other than a Democratic based on an issue—whether immigration, Palestinian/Israeli policy, abortion rights—is considered absurd, I think is to misunderstand the level of frustration that is out there.

 

 

[Xan]

3 hours ago, noseybutt said:

Genuine question that I am asking without snark. This is an important topic.

Did you say the same thing in 2020? 

Why or why not?

Yes.  I said the same thing about Trump then because I've always thought of him as a crook.  Anytime he runs, I'll vote for whomever runs against him.  It if was between Trump and a rotting tree stump, the rotting tree stump would get my vote.  

I don't think the Democrats are going to be everything to everybody and, frankly, I'm registered as an independent.  I mostly vote for Democrats because they are the only party who does almost anything at all for the actual citizens.  I think Biden has done a lot of good but I know he's let things slide.  I give him some credit for trying to fix the mess that Trump left behind.

I have voted for Republicans for time to time.  I probably wouldn't vote for a third party candidate because, in my opinion, that's just throwing my vote away.  But I will never vote for Trump for anything.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Xan

[noseybutt]

ETA Let me phrase this differently. We didn’t end up with a MAGA mess because MAGA people were voting for the least offensive option. The whole MAGA movement instead focused on pushing policies forward. I don’t think we are ever going to counter MAGA unless there is a counter balance. 

2 minutes ago, Xan said:

Yes.  I said the same thing about Trump then because I've always thought of him as a crook.  Anytime he runs, I'll vote for whomever runs against him.  It if was between Trump and a rotting tree stump, the rotting tree stump would get my vote.  

I don't think the Democrats are going to be everything to everybody and, frankly, I'm registered as an independent.  I mostly vote for Democrats because they are the only party who does almost anything at all for the actual citizens.  I think Biden has done a lot of good but I know he's let things slide.  I give him some credit for trying to fix the mess that Trump left behind.

I have voted for Republicans for time to time.  I probably wouldn't vote for a third party candidate because, in my opinion, that's just throwing my vote away.  But I will never vote for Trump for anything.

I am in a reddish purple county in a blue state. Voting Republican for president is not an option for me. Voting third party won’t help elect an independent president but neither will it help Trump win.

 I wonder if that is part of the reason people talk past each other on this issue? Because of electoral college, each vote does not really have the same impact. IDK.

[Xan]

This one is tough.  To me, MAGA is basically anti-progress.  The whole movement seems to want to turn back the clock, restrict rights, have fewer people voting, and let bigotry and misogyny rule.  If you have people against progress, how do you counter balance that?  Serious question.

They've now veered into dangerous anti-science, anti-facts territory.  Again, that's hard to counter.  Millions have been trained to just call things "fake news" and to search the internet for like-minded people who will support whatever they want to believe.  Dinosaurs on the ark?  Sure.  There are sites that support that.  Flat earth?  Why not?  The web has people that support that as well.  I've said this before -- we're starting to run into a real life remake of Orwell's 1984.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Xan

[noseybutt]

31 minutes ago, Xan said:

This one is tough.  To me, MAGA is basically anti-progress.  The whole movement seems to want to turn back the clock, restrict rights, have fewer people voting, and let bigotry and misogyny rule.  If you have people against progress, how do you counter balance that?  Serious question.

They've now veered into dangerous anti-science, anti-facts territory.  Again, that's hard to counter.  Millions have been trained to just call things "fake news" and to search the internet for like-minded people who will support whatever they want to believe.  Dinosaurs on the ark?  Sure.  There are sites that support that.  Flat earth?  Why not?  The web has people that support that as well.  I've said this before -- we're starting to run into a real life remake of Orwell's 1984.

So I don’t have any great or original solutions. This seems to be a problem across the globe—regressive and populist politicians are all the rage.

Maybe start with clear messaging that the point is inclusion/freedom for all. Be bold with diversity and include religious people of all faiths and completely irreligious people in that diversity. 

Focus hard on the single issues. By that I mean find 3 or 4 that matter to people and drill down. Don’t flinch. 

Quit taking votes for granted, and especially in black, Muslim, Latinx, and immigrant communities. Make sure their issues overlap with the 3-4 major points. In other words, diversity is the point.

Ask every candidate, from dog catcher on up, to state clearly how they will use their position to strengthen democracy. Mostly that comes down to transparency and accountability. How can you use the job to make your own job more transparent? How will you hold yourself and those under your authority accountable?

Obviously there is much more, but IMO that would be a start.

[Ozlsn]

Turn up to vote for every election. Support candidates to run for every position. 

I realise I come from a very different system (preferential voting, mandatory voting for starters..), but one of the things that consistently surprises me is when high level positions in the US are elected unopposed. There should be candidates contesting every state and federal position, no matter how hopeless it seems - at least force them to realise how many people would prefer someone else, and hold them accountable once they're in.

[noseybutt]

3 minutes ago, Ozlsn said:

Turn up to vote for every election. Support candidates to run for every position. 

I realise I come from a very different system (preferential voting, mandatory voting for starters..), but one of the things that consistently surprises me is when high level positions in the US are elected unopposed. There should be candidates contesting every state and federal position, no matter how hopeless it seems - at least force them to realise how many people would prefer someone else, and hold them accountable once they're in.

This.

Mike Johnson got his start running unopposed to state legislature and then used that momentum to scurry up the political ladder.

[Becky]

I appreciate this respectful discussion.

@noseybutt says:  I am in a reddish purple county in a blue state. Voting Republican for president is not an option for me. Voting third party won’t help elect an independent president but neither will it help Trump win.

__________________

See, this is where you lose me.  Like it or not, right now President is going to be a binary choice.  Voting for any left-leaning third party candidate with no chance to win dilutes the support for the Dem and consequently increases the percentage of support for the Repub., especially in a purple area.  I have my disappointments with Pres. Biden, but Trump is a dangerous megalomaniac and I will vote for whoever has the best chance to beat him (if he is the Republican candidate, which looks increasingly likely).

[noseybutt]

3 hours ago, Becky said:

I appreciate this respectful discussion.

@noseybutt says:  I am in a reddish purple county in a blue state. Voting Republican for president is not an option for me. Voting third party won’t help elect an independent president but neither will it help Trump win.

__________________

See, this is where you lose me.  Like it or not, right now President is going to be a binary choice.  Voting for any left-leaning third party candidate with no chance to win dilutes the support for the Dem and consequently increases the percentage of support for the Repub., especially in a purple area.  I have my disappointments with Pres. Biden, but Trump is a dangerous megalomaniac and I will vote for whoever has the best chance to beat him (if he is the Republican candidate, which looks increasingly likely).

My state doesn’t split the electoral college. It’s all or none. If the state is voting strongly for a Democratic president, a third party vote is not going to help Trump. 

Again, the current strategy is to vote against Trump and I think that’s a terrible way to marginalize MAGA.

This is my frustration. The burden and blame for Trump potentially be re-elected is being misplaced onto people who question this horrible strategy.

Respectfully: stop it. You can’t expect people to vote for no vision other than Not-Trump. You can’t expect certain communities to keep doing what you want without actually understanding and helping those communities.

 

[apple1]

10 hours ago, noseybutt said:

Mike Johnson got his start running unopposed to state legislature and then used that momentum to scurry up the political ladder.

I don't disagree with this. I also have read all of the FJ postings so far about Johnson, and I appreciate those posts; they shed big-picture light on Johnson in an overall, longer-term way. I understand that Johnson had behind the scenes influence and power, apparently. 

Here is the question I still have. What nitty-gritty details behind the scenes caused a complete turnaround in less than a week? A week that completely flipped from expectations of having Jordan or Scalise or Emmer voted next Speaker, to Johnson whose name hadn't even been mentioned in a public way, and who publicly was not much known outside of Louisiana? Something very rotten had to be going on in backrooms. Who had/has what dirt on who, in what way, and what was about to be exposed?

There has to be more than is public right now.

Edited November 7, 2023 by apple1
ETA- I have small comfort that Johnson has picked the wrong fight in starting out legislatively by fighting McConnell.

[Alisamer]

On 10/27/2023 at 2:54 PM, WatchingTheTireFireBurn said:

This neighbor I call "jesus is the reason" because I don't know her name but on our dead end street that gets no traffic she feels the need to put out a sign every year that "jesus is the reason" and it always rubs me the wrong way. preachy freaking christians bossing people with their yard signs. ugh

 

I hate those "Jesus is the Reason for the Season" signs. Axial tilt is the reason for the season. Jesus is the reason for this particular holiday, which was plopped on top of existing previous holidays to encourage the populace to convert more easily. 

19 hours ago, Xan said:

I would agree with you about this on any other election year.  This time, if Trump wins, he won't leave.  We'll have a dictatorship and I don't know how we'll ever get out of it.  He's the worst candidate by far that we've ever had.  I know that Biden has sometimes been a disappointment and, fine, kick the Democrats to the curb in 2028.  2024 is just too important.  If Biden doesn't run, I'll vote for anyone who has a chance to beat Trump.

So, so so so much this.

17 hours ago, noseybutt said:

Genuine question that I am asking without snark. This is an important topic.

Did you say the same thing in 2020? 

Why or why not?

2024  is very very incredibly different from 2020. A first term president, even a ridiculous one like Trump, has to keep in mind the need for re-election. A second term president does NOT. They are out no matter what they do, so they can get much more done. They can be more aggressive, they can be willing to piss people off, they can actually accomplish more during their second term. 

Unfortunately there is a very huge chance with Trump that what that will mean is him decreeing himself dictator. And the GOP has gerrymandered and pandered their way into being able to potentially let him do it! A second-term Trump will at best insist on doing away with presidential term limits but most likely find a way to set himself up in office for the remainder of his life. He'll pardon himself for everything, destroy all political enemies, reward those who pander to him, and continue to skim as much money out of the government as possible while doing as little actual presidential work as he can manage. 

There's no guarantee he will succeed at those things, but I have no doubt that's his goal. He will try, and he will hold the government in a stranglehold, he will pander to Putin, punish those he dislikes, and do as much as he possibly can to disenfranchise anyone whe thinks doesn't support him. 

I think if things were normal, voting third party might be somewhat viable, but if Trump manages to get back into the presidency I think the country will never be the same.

We'd be far better off with more than two parties, IMO, but I think that has to come from the ground up - build up third party candidates in lower offices and moving up from there. I get the annoyance about having to vote for the least worst option, but I am terrified that Trump is going to manage to get back into the presidency and insanity will become normalcy. 

[noseybutt]

2 hours ago, Alisamer said:

 

2024  is very very incredibly different from 2020. A first term president, even a ridiculous one like Trump, has to keep in mind the need for re-election. A second term president does NOT. They are out no matter what they do, so they can get much more done. They can be more aggressive, they can be willing to piss people off, they can actually accomplish more during their second term. 

Unfortunately there is a very huge chance with Trump that what that will mean is him decreeing himself dictator. And the GOP has gerrymandered and pandered their way into being able to potentially let him do it! A second-term Trump will at best insist on doing away with presidential term limits but most likely find a way to set himself up in office for the remainder of his life. He'll pardon himself for everything, destroy all political enemies, reward those who pander to him, and continue to skim as much money out of the government as possible while doing as little actual presidential work as he can manage. 

There's no guarantee he will succeed at those things, but I have no doubt that's his goal. He will try, and he will hold the government in a stranglehold, he will pander to Putin, punish those he dislikes, and do as much as he possibly can to disenfranchise anyone whe thinks doesn't support him. 

I think if things were normal, voting third party might be somewhat viable, but if Trump manages to get back into the presidency I think the country will never be the same.

We'd be far better off with more than two parties, IMO, but I think that has to come from the ground up - build up third party candidates in lower offices and moving up from there. I get the annoyance about having to vote for the least worst option, but I am terrified that Trump is going to manage to get back into the presidency and insanity will become normalcy. 

***I want to add in a caveat that I am not 100% sure how I will vote in 2024, except that it will NOT be  a vote for Trump. Also I am not some far-left ideologist. For example, I would prefer a shift in the tax code that absolutely lowers taxes for small businesses. Feeling the pressure of proselytization. LOL.***

What I am suggesting is that "voting for the least worst option" is NOT an annoyance. It's far worse than that. When you have a strong ideology that threatens the very bedrock of democracy, the neutralization of that is NOT going to happen with milquetoast platitudes that "we are not the other guy."

MAGA is a minority in this country. (This study estimated 24%.) So how has a wildly unpopular set of beliefs come to so thoroughly dominate? It sure as heck wasn't because---yeah, I know this is annoying, but vote this way because we are the least offensive option.

Ugh.

MAGA is 100% based on fear, and especially fear of change and the modern pluralistic world. The response that our democracy will end with a Trump re-election is also based on fear. By now it should be blatantly obvious that non-MAGA voters are not entirely motivated by fear. It's more complicated for them. In an ideological war of fear, MAGA voters will hold together in a way non-MAGA voters will not.

I think a close look at voting patterns in 2020 clearly shows how problematic the Democratic reliance on "least offensive option" has become. Some analysts think that one of the tipping factors was votes by black woman. But....What are some of the topics that matter to black women?  It's racism. Economic insecurity. Healthcare including reproductive rights. Gritting my teeth to say this--it is NOT support of the state of Israel. (This has long been been one key difference between white and black evangelicals.) 

How likely are black women to pull out all the stops and the turnout in 2024? From what I am seeing IRL and on my social media--not very. I think there is an increasing trend of them being fed up with the Democratic Party.

I started this thread drift because of a comment by @WatchingTheTireFireBurn about why a Muslim might decide NOT to vote for Biden because of Israel/Gaza and how ridiculous that seemed. To me, it is entirely logical.

That is all.

 

 

 

 

[Xan]

I understand what you're saying, @noseybutt but I don't know how we'd get from theory to actually making it work.  Unfortunately, we have bound up our elections with massive amounts of money -- most of which is held by powerful groups and a few individuals.  They have a firm grasp on everything and it will be hard to pull back control.  You've even seen how the media plays along and downplays Biden victories while refusing to call Trump a crook.  The media survives by page views and advertising and that rules their decisions.

I'm all for the US started a third party -- for example, The People's Party.  Run for local seats.  Tell the truth.  Stick up for the issues that matter.  However, getting it off the ground would require financial backing and someone with enough power to cut through the bullshit produced by the media and to overwhelm the usual wealthy givers who only donate to candidates who promise lower taxes and cuts to social welfare programs.  I'm just afraid that any attempt to form another party will be smothered at birth.  Those who currently have power in both parties want to keep it.

Yeah.  This is bleak and pessimistic.  I'm old and have watched politics just get worse.  It was a nasty business from time to time but the Citizens United decision made it so much worse.

 

[WatchingTheTireFireBurn]

To those who aren't American - somebody above posted about voting and unopposed seats...

1. Sometimes those "unopposed" elections are not really unopposed. They're in solid republican or democratic places where people of the opposing party do not want to spend the money on what is hopeless. In America some districts are "gerrymandered" quite badly in many places  - meaning the lines for where the voters are clumped together are drawn to make the district either republican or democratic as the case may be. If you live or vote in such a district where the lines have been drawn to where there's basically no way for another party to win - it would be wasteful of the money to spend on running a candidate in that area.

2. Money. in the USA they rolled back what few rules we had about political donations and our supreme court ruled that a corporation has rights like a human person has to influence elections and policy through money. There are functionally no limits on political money. Our elections, for even small offices, are swamped by outside money of people peddling for influence.  The democratic party and republican party - as a whole but especially at state level - help with funding candidates at all levels. Through direct $ but also through directing rich donors and connecting people with "the right" people. So if you have little chance of winning a district because of a strong lean to one party or due to gerry mandering - as a party - the repubs or dems are not going to want to take money/donors/attention away from other races in a neighboring district that might be winnable. 

This is how sometimes we get random rich guy candidates, nobody reasonable could get the party behind them, the party ran the person they decided but voters didn't much like...so the rich guy comes in from out of nowhere, pulls in rich guy friends, and suddenly has a position of more influence and power.

But mostly everybody in our government is rich to start out with. Our election cycles run for such long times and are sooooo expensive, you have to already be rich and have that influence with other rich people....and the rich people tend to support candidates of like mind who will support more legislation that favors rich people.

Since we have basically no limits on spending for elections - there's no apparatus to get a 3rd party going. There's no funding. You'd need a rich guy with many rich friends, not just an isolated rich guy, to even attempt to be competitive. 

I don't know how we can ever get out of this at this point. It's a self fulfilling loop now that there's no legal recourse to limit spending by huge corporations and political groups formed to influence government.  Regular people can't compete.

[Alisamer]

My thing about voting third party in this upcoming presidential election, is that Trump's ideal is for that to be the LAST presidential election. You can't vote in a third party president in the future if there are no more presidential elections.

I know that's extreme, and thankfully (probably) unlikely, but I have no doubt that's Trump's goal. Win the presidency in 2024 by any means possible (up to and including a coup), immediately begin expanding his presidential powers to the point he can remove the checks and balances, pardon himself for any past and future crimes, and declare himself president for life to be followed by whichever kid is in his good graces when he kicks the bucket. Once he's solidified power to that point, he can quit pretending to care about the rando MAGA followers and quit spending on their wants and needs, and begin milking every single penny he can from the government for his own benefit. In between golfing. And since he'll immediately begin controlling media, he won't have to waste nearly as much time ranting, either. 

I don't think he'll succeed, but he's gotten farther than anyone ever thought he might. And I have no doubt that's his end goal. He doesn't want to cozy up to Putin, he wants to BE Putin.

[noseybutt]

1 hour ago, Alisamer said:

My thing about voting third party in this upcoming presidential election, is that Trump's ideal is for that to be the LAST presidential election. You can't vote in a third party president in the future if there are no more presidential elections.

I know that's extreme, and thankfully (probably) unlikely, but I have no doubt that's Trump's goal. Win the presidency in 2024 by any means possible (up to and including a coup), immediately begin expanding his presidential powers to the point he can remove the checks and balances, pardon himself for any past and future crimes, and declare himself president for life to be followed by whichever kid is in his good graces when he kicks the bucket. Once he's solidified power to that point, he can quit pretending to care about the rando MAGA followers and quit spending on their wants and needs, and begin milking every single penny he can from the government for his own benefit. In between golfing. And since he'll immediately begin controlling media, he won't have to waste nearly as much time ranting, either. 

I don't think he'll succeed, but he's gotten farther than anyone ever thought he might. And I have no doubt that's his end goal. He doesn't want to cozy up to Putin, he wants to BE Putin.

So anyone who truly believes things are this dire, why wait for the election? Why are you not in the streets at this moment waging daily protest?

Our democracy cannot hinge on a single office. 

[Alisamer]

34 minutes ago, noseybutt said:

Our democracy cannot hinge on a single office. 

It shouldn't. I totally agree. But this is a very rare case where it might. Unlikely, but possible enough I'm personally not willing to risk it. I'd much rather see what a second term Biden would do than a second-term Trump, and literally anyone else who might get elected in will be a first term president with 4 years of being careful lest they lose re-election the next time. Obama got much more done in his second term, I hope Biden does the same. 

I personally live in a state that went once for Obama and not the next time, which without gerrymandering would be solidly purple, maybe even blue-leaning, and where despite the gerrymandering I am in a reddish county right next to a solidly blue one where maybe, possibly, my vote might actually make a small difference, so that informs my choices. 

I get that my perspective is affected by that situation, and others might be in a situation where a protest vote might make a bigger statement than choosing to vote for Biden against Trump. 

Quote

So anyone who truly believes things are this dire, why wait for the election? Why are you not in the streets at this moment waging daily protest?

Because I have to work? 

And really, what good would it do for me to be out in the street yelling at a cloud? Trump adores and feeds off attention, both good and bad. The maga faithful have shown there is literally nothing Trump can do that they won't spin into being the best thing ever, and there is literally nothing anyone opposed to Trump can do that they won't twist into something hellish. Right now, I can support candidates for smaller office, have discussions with people I know (though frankly some of them are so brainwashed they cannot think critically anymore, it seems), participate in any mass protests that are well planned with a real goal and the potential to have a real impact, support organizations I believe in, vote, and hope that Trump is convicted of enough that he's left off the ballot as many places as possible. Or that the hamberders and KFC finally get him. Or that he does something to piss off Putin. 

And at the election I can choose to vote for Biden, if I still feel he's the best option (even if that's really the least bad option), because he at least seems to be a decent person not attempting to destroy the country for his own benefit, and because there IS the possibility that my vote might matter. A little. 

While I think it's unlikely, I genuinely think that if Trump got everything he's aiming for, the option to vote will be gone. On top of him stating full out he wants more than two 4-year terms as president, he has a chunk of supporters who legit think women should not be allowed to vote. And you know they believe that of other minorities, too, they just haven't been brave enough to say so yet. I'm not willing for my potential last presidential vote to be one that helps take away that option to vote in the future. 

I think that protest voting can potentially work down ballot, but at the presidential level this election cycle, with this particular orange menace in the running is TO ME in my situation and location not worth the risk. 

Now if he's NOT on the ballot? Things might be different. At the next election afterward if Trump hasn't turned us into a dictatorship? Things might be different. But if Trump is on the ballot I'm choosing to vote Biden on the presidential level.

I get why others might choose differently. And if they choose to, I hope they live in states where that vote will make a statement without contributing to Trump's re-election. I hope someday we do have more than two parties (I suspect if a Republican is not elected as president in 2024 we will hopefully see that party split, making it more viable for other parties to gain power as well). I hope someday all the brainwashed MAGA fanatics come to their senses. And I hope someday we have a presidential election where we can easily choose the best candidate, not the least bad one, without the risk of rights being stripped away from large swathes of the population.