(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 50: Anna Breaking the Opposite of News about the Whodunnit of the Century

[Wolf in Sheeples’ Clothing]

This is one of my rescues, Mina. And she’s ready to be shipped!

Edited March 15, 2022 by Wolf in Sheeples’ Clothing

[zee_four]

@smittykins and @QuiverFullofBooks Mahalo nui loa!!!! Your kitties are adorable and I appreciate your input so so so much. It helps me feel a lot better hearing it from actual owners of FIv+ and - kitties together since the layman research is so contradictory.

I go to one of the low income vets on the island, where they see a lot of the stray cat population through TNR programs where they donate free or reduced rates for S&N. They also see a lot of cats that have been rescued from outside. She told me with a low stress environment and being fed and taken care of he likely will have a long happy life.

 

She told me to read up on it and also mentioned to not get another cat. Kolohe I've had since he was 8 weeks old because my auntie and uncle helped his mom whose a frequent flyer in their yard where they put food out for strays, with her litter. Kekona came into our ohana about 2 months ago now, he was living in an industrial site in downtown Honolulu, first with mom and a sister who abandoned him awhile ago, the workers kept him fed as much as they could until the site owner showed up one day and announced he was "getting rid of the damn cat" the next day. One worked came back late that night and got him in a carrier and took him home to his wife. They couldn't keep him so they contacted me. Like I said both boys are about 7-8 months.

I told her that and she was like well try to keep them separated  (haha yeah right) and all that. Not having other cats living with FIV+ cats seemed to be dominant in most of the reading I b found online but some newer studies said there was almost no risk as long as they don't mate (two fixed boy kitties lol I think I'm safe) or viciously fight like tomcat over mating territory where there can be a lot of blood.

It seems like the way people used to be about HIV in the 80s and early 90s, worried about catching it from handshakes, sharing utensils, using public toilets until finally research showed that was so not the case and overtime more people got that memo. With FIV it seems like people are in the early 90s period, information dispelling the myths is being studied and published but rumors and amped up fears seem common. I read kill shelters used to have a policy of putting down any FIV cats from the start, and some still do. Compared to dogs most cats adopted are by people who already have cats and many have that same fear of having FIV + and - kitties together.

I asked if there was medicine like there is now for HIV+ people to keep viral loads down and live long healthy lives but there isn't. Just giving him quality care and keeping him healthy and safe and loved, and together both boys can live to make mommy so so happy and at the same time drive mommy so so crazy for the next decade and beyond.

I hope your furbabies do the same to you! Mahalo again for helping lift a weight off my heart about my baby boy. 😺

 

 

[zee_four]

And just for some extra cuteness, here's baby kitty Kolohe being adorable as a pumpkin this past Halloween 🎃 

Some more of him as a baby

Spoiler

 

[QuiverFullofBooks]

1 hour ago, zee_four said:

@smittykins and @QuiverFullofBooks Mahalo nui loa!!!! Your kitties are adorable and I appreciate your input so so so much. It helps me feel a lot better hearing it from actual owners of FIv+ and - kitties together since the layman research is so contradictory.

I go to one of the low income vets on the island, where they see a lot of the stray cat population through TNR programs where they donate free or reduced rates for S&N. They also see a lot of cats that have been rescued from outside. She told me with a low stress environment and being fed and taken care of he likely will have a long happy life.

 

She told me to read up on it and also mentioned to not get another cat. Kolohe I've had since he was 8 weeks old because my auntie and uncle helped his mom whose a frequent flyer in their yard where they put food out for strays, with her litter. Kekona came into our ohana about 2 months ago now, he was living in an industrial site in downtown Honolulu, first with mom and a sister who abandoned him awhile ago, the workers kept him fed as much as they could until the site owner showed up one day and announced he was "getting rid of the damn cat" the next day. One worked came back late that night and got him in a carrier and took him home to his wife. They couldn't keep him so they contacted me. Like I said both boys are about 7-8 months.

I told her that and she was like well try to keep them separated  (haha yeah right) and all that. Not having other cats living with FIV+ cats seemed to be dominant in most of the reading I b found online but some newer studies said there was almost no risk as long as they don't mate (two fixed boy kitties lol I think I'm safe) or viciously fight like tomcat over mating territory where there can be a lot of blood.

It seems like the way people used to be about HIV in the 80s and early 90s, worried about catching it from handshakes, sharing utensils, using public toilets until finally research showed that was so not the case and overtime more people got that memo. With FIV it seems like people are in the early 90s period, information dispelling the myths is being studied and published but rumors and amped up fears seem common. I read kill shelters used to have a policy of putting down any FIV cats from the start, and some still do. Compared to dogs most cats adopted are by people who already have cats and many have that same fear of having FIV + and - kitties together.

I asked if there was medicine like there is now for HIV+ people to keep viral loads down and live long healthy lives but there isn't. Just giving him quality care and keeping him healthy and safe and loved, and together both boys can live to make mommy so so happy and at the same time drive mommy so so crazy for the next decade and beyond.

I hope your furbabies do the same to you! Mahalo again for helping lift a weight off my heart about my baby boy. 😺

 

 

Thanks! Best of luck to you and your kitties. I try to resist posting photos of mine here, because I post them so much elsewhere that anyone I know who is here might recognize them.

[AnywhereButHere]

On 3/13/2022 at 9:19 PM, patsymae said:

Replaced all the porch screens with pet-proof screens. They were not Peanut proof. Plus he knocked out the screens in the windows. Secured the window screens from the outside. Put up grids on screen doors and lower porch screens. He pried them apart. Just had the guy secure the grids with bolts. We shall see.

If I hear one more person say how irresponsible it is to "let" your cat out I may scream.

When we moved into our first house, our neighbor’s cat decided to move in with us. Neighbor didn’t mind since he had about 10 other cats, so we got a cat. She seemed very happy being an indoor cat (her first 4 years of life were outdoor), so when we went away one weekend, we left her inside with plenty of food and water and the windows cracked a bit for air. We came home on Sunday to a scratched to hell window sill and a cat sized hole in the screen. Apparently chasing the wild turkeys in our yard became a compulsion no screen could contain. She wanted to stay inside only on her terms, damnit! 
 

@zee_four To add to the stories of cats with FIV, our baby lived in close proximity to 10 other cats and never passed it in to them. She was also a 6 pound, healthy, ball of fire for most of her life. Tiny cat - huge attitude. 😹When she went, it was quick. Up until the last couple of weeks she was not suffering at all. And this was over 20 years ago, so I have to imagine meds are better now. 

Edited March 15, 2022 by AnywhereButHere

[Alisamer]

17 hours ago, smittykins said:

Marmalade(of Cole and Marmalade)is FIV+, and he and Cole(and their tortie sisters Jugg and ZigZag)lived quite safely together, even sharing food/water dishes and litterboxes(apparently, spreading FIV requires a deep bite.)

And now they have a new brother, Bond. 

Loving the kitty drift. I need to catch up on what's going on over at Kitten Academy - I know the people there have been ill so fewer closeups than usual, but livestream is always on. I need to see the brown kittens playing. So cute. 

[smittykins]

I love how his full name is Goldenballs Bond.(Although I’m sure by now,  he’s been relieved of his Goldenballs. )

[Letgo]

So, Josh has been in jail for over 3 months now and has just under 3 weeks to go until his sentencing. By now he has had time to adjust to the jail routine but he will soon have another adjustment to his new cell in prison. Can Josh request a particular federal prison? (Sorry if this has been discussed previously.) Or will he be sent to one that has room for him regardless of location? I think of him often, sitting alone in his cell. I wonder if any family members will eventually support Josh openly-besides Anna. I'm thinking of the Smith parents and their denial of Alan's guilt/he's repented so it's over attitude.

Will Josh's appeals have any impact on his sentencing date? If he were granted a new trial would he remain in the county jail or be sent to prison and only moved when the new trial occurs? Please, please no new trial.

[patsymae]

1 hour ago, Letgo said:

So, Josh has been in jail for over 3 months now and has just under 3 weeks to go until his sentencing. By now he has had time to adjust to the jail routine but he will soon have another adjustment to his new cell in prison. Can Josh request a particular federal prison? (Sorry if this has been discussed previously.) Or will he be sent to one that has room for him regardless of location? I think of him often, sitting alone in his cell. I wonder if any family members will eventually support Josh openly-besides Anna. I'm thinking of the Smith parents and their denial of Alan's guilt/he's repented so it's over attitude.

Will Josh's appeals have any impact on his sentencing date? If he were granted a new trial would he remain in the county jail or be sent to prison and only moved when the new trial occurs? Please, please no new trial.

While Josh is likely miserable and will look like shit at his sentencing, my personal feeling is that neither he nor Ofjosh have learned a thing from this. He's either going to continue to insist on his innocence or give the repentance speech and expect it to work again, and I wouldn't be suprised at all if he and his idiot wife expect that in either case he will be released pending appeal. Neither one seems to grasp the gravity of the charges or the slam-dunk evidence against him, and in their world, reaffirmed by JBoob and OfJboob, this is just a tempest in a teapot and Jesus will smoothe it all over. I think it is going to be a HUGE shock to both of them when he gets slammed with actual consequences. Unfortunately, still won't be a wake-up call.

[nokidsmom]

5 minutes ago, patsymae said:

Neither one seems to grasp the gravity of the charges or the slam-dunk evidence against him, and in their world, reaffirmed by JBoob and OfJboob, this is just a tempest in a teapot and Jesus will smoothe it all over

Anna definitely looked pissed, to me at least, when she left that courtroom after Joshley's conviction.  And her first SM post afterward indicated she really did not grasp that yes, her husband is going to prison, even pending appeal.   She's looking for the "get out of jail free" card that will spring Joshley out of the big house and back to the warehouse.  Not going to happen.    

She sat there in that courtroom every day and saw/heard what was presented in court.   While other family members were seeing for themselves what Joshley had done in open court with no Duggar filters, it seems that she has doubled down on his innocence in spite of that.   I sort of get the denial, it's got to be hard to admit that the man you married is not the person you thought he was and she just had a baby, but OTOH she had her "warning shots" about her husband years ago.

[anjulibai]

The only positive thing about Josh continuing to press his innocense is that it's likely, given the evidence, going to be used against him in the sentencing. Judges don't look leniently upon those that do no express remorse and a desire to reform. 

[Letgo]

10 minutes ago, anjulibai said:

The only positive thing about Josh continuing to press his innocense is that it's likely, given the evidence, going to be used against him in the sentencing. Judges don't look leniently upon those that do no express remorse and a desire to reform. 

I have wondered about this. Since Josh is still claiming he didn't do the crimes he can't ask for mercy from the court. If I were a judge I'd be more inclined to come down harder on him. Will he be allowed to speak at his sentencing? Could he continue to claim innocence? Or could he claim he was mislead/didn't know the porn was there/something similar? What would an attorney advise a client to do? Ol' Josh is between a rock and a hard place. If he admits guilt and pretends he's oh so very sorry then it makes him GUILTY and isn't helpful to the family brand. If he maintains his innocence and continues to try and throw another person under the bus he's lying and could spend even more time in prison. What to do, what to do?

[patsymae]

11 minutes ago, Letgo said:

I have wondered about this. Since Josh is still claiming he didn't do the crimes he can't ask for mercy from the court. If I were a judge I'd be more inclined to come down harder on him. Will he be allowed to speak at his sentencing? Could he continue to claim innocence? Or could he claim he was mislead/didn't know the porn was there/something similar? What would an attorney advise a client to do? Ol' Josh is between a rock and a hard place. If he admits guilt and pretends he's oh so very sorry then it makes him GUILTY and isn't helpful to the family brand. If he maintains his innocence and continues to try and throw another person under the bus he's lying and could spend even more time in prison. What to do, what to do?

Maybe some legal eagles can comment here. My understanding is that he would be asked if he has something to say (at the end of the whole shebang). Also that people can send letters to the judge attesting to his character, family obligations, etc. and ask for leniency. But my observations (admittedly from people on the other side of the bench) is that those letters don't influence anything--oh, his mom says he is great, guess I'll give him a pass--but the absence of them can--guy couldn't find one person to say anything good about him.
But yea, he can't proclaim innocence and repent and plead for mercy at the same time. Will be interesting to see what happens.

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

Mini media circus aside, this case just isn't a big deal to the judge. Josh isn't going to be granted a new trial by same judge who handled the trial.  He's going to get a sentence in line with those the judge hands down in similar situations  (technically a first time offender, a moderate number of images of young children under 12, some very young).

Will Josh take responsibility for his actions for a potentially lower sentence?  My guess is he will not.  I don't think he'll ever admit the truth to Anna and I also think he'll keep appealing while in prison until he hits the final roadblock.  Either way, the odds of him getting something close to 15 or 20 years are almost nil. Most of these guys actually serve no more than 5 or 6 years when getting the 15% time off for good behavior.

For me at least, everything now shifts to Anna, especially if she can expect Josh to be back home when her three youngest daughters are still quite young. If she eagerly waits for him to return to those little girls, she is every bit as sick as he is.  But even five years is a long time to think about things, and I still have some hope she'll come to her senses and be far away when he gets out and returns to his near-elderly parents. 

 

[nokidsmom]

44 minutes ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

For me at least, everything now shifts to Anna, especially if she can expect Josh to be back home when her three youngest daughters are still quite young. If she eagerly waits for him to return to those little girls, she is every bit as sick as he is.  But even five years is a long time to think about things, and I still have some hope she'll come to her senses and be far away when he gets out and returns to his near-elderly parents.

One question regarding Anna possibly reevaluating things when Joshley goes to prison: might she realize that even once he gets out, he basically has no future?  I mean, he's basically uneducated, unemployable, lost reputation and will be limited in where he can live, work and do.   So he comes back to the warehouse, or whenever Anna and kids might be living but then what?   He still will be reliant on JB because who else will hire him?   The glory days of DC are gone, never to return.  I mean it's pretty much over as far as their past life is concerned and I think that is why Anna is hanging on to his innocence because she really wants to think this is all a mistake, can be cleared up on appeal and they can carry on as before.   Maybe while Josh is doing time and away long enough, she might come to realize that it's really all over.  

I don't have a lot of hopes on that but right now she's still in the thick of things, no doubt is in constant contact with Josh where he can still lie and manipulate her.   Once he's out of the local county jail, further away and more constraints on calls and visits, that's where she might get enough space from him to clear her head a bit.

[zee_four]

1 hour ago, patsymae said:

Maybe some legal eagles can comment here. My understanding is that he would be asked if he has something to say (at the end of the whole shebang). Also that people can send letters to the judge attesting to his character, family obligations, etc. and ask for leniency. But my observations (admittedly from people on the other side of the bench) is that those letters don't influence anything--oh, his mom says he is great, guess I'll give him a pass--but the absence of them can--guy couldn't find one person to say anything good about him.
But yea, he can't proclaim innocence and repent and plead for mercy at the same time. Will be interesting to see what happens.

I'm not a legal eagle but both victims impact statements/victim's families and admission of guilt with remorse/character statements of the accused can and do make a difference at sentencing. While prior bad acts and other more subjective, emotionally charged things like the above aren't allowed to be weighed in the verdict, afterwards for sentencing they are often involved in someway. The effect isn't to extremes like the judge acquitting or only sentencing to probation or on the other hand sentencing to life without parole for a crime with a sentence of 10 to 20 years or anything like that. But of a judge has the discretion to decide the sentence between 10-20 years that's where it can make an impact. Hypothetically if Josh had never committed prior bad acts like sexual abuse of minors, if he didn't have a history of sexual deviance or anti social behavior according to the pre-sentencing report, if he were truly remorseful,  the judge might say okay 10 years followed by supervised release. Supportive family and community can impact this slightly depending on the crime. If he had prior convictions, he is not remorseful, stuff like that, he could get the full 20.

However judges with this more subjective sentencing power who can choose which of these factors to incorporate and how much impact they have is a state court thing which is where my personal experiences have been. After sentencing, prisons and probation do another psychosocial assessment which makes an impact on requirements such as therapy, in prison acceptance into  certain groups and programs like parenting or substance abuse recovery, out of jail work release,  probation community service requirements, etc.

But Smuggar is with the Feds. I know their sentencing is super complicated and is sorted by type and class of offense and then a point system for previous convictions and other things. I also know violent crimes and anything related to controlled substances are grouped together as the most severe type. Forcible sex crimes are another and they include everything but recieving/possessing CSAM and office work or something for a criminal enterprise responsible for forcible sex crimes. Our systems priorities are incredibly screwed up IMO.

I know there's some brilliant lawyers and individuals who have been involved in managing offenders or otherwise have had experience with the federal justice system. Please anyone of the many wonderful FJers who know this issue better than me, feel free to correct me and share your expertise!

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

57 minutes ago, zee_four said:

I'm not a legal eagle but both victims impact statements/victim's families and admission of guilt with remorse/character statements of the accused can and do make a difference at sentencing. While prior bad acts and other more subjective, emotionally charged things like the above aren't allowed to be weighed in the verdict, afterwards for sentencing they are often involved in someway. The effect isn't to extremes like the judge acquitting or only sentencing to probation or on the other hand sentencing to life without parole for a crime with a sentence of 10 to 20 years or anything like that. But of a judge has the discretion to decide the sentence between 10-20 years that's where it can make an impact. Hypothetically if Josh had never committed prior bad acts like sexual abuse of minors, if he didn't have a history of sexual deviance or anti social behavior according to the pre-sentencing report, if he were truly remorseful,  the judge might say okay 10 years followed by supervised release. Supportive family and community can impact this slightly depending on the crime. If he had prior convictions, he is not remorseful, stuff like that, he could get the full 20.

The range will be between 5 years and 20, and hardly any experts think he'll get something at the high end based on typical sentences for this type of crime. 

My question is - Who gets to give a victim impact statement in this situation?  My understanding is that the images are mostly old and the child victims are from places like Asia. Would the victims from his old, unprosecuted crimes be allowed to speak?  And if so, would they?  I tend to think they wouldn't but I don't really know. I suppose Jill is the only one who might, if allowed.

Josh is not going to be punished for not taking a plea deal, assuming one was even offered, or for not taking responsibility for his actions.  He had a right to a trial, and he has the right to maintain his innocence, and therefore not show remorse. What he won't get is a possible slightly softer sentence for admitting guilt and telling the court he'll seek help. He still could do this, of course, and we don't know whether Jim Bob has a true appetite for further appeals.

[Expectopatronus]

This particular CSA material was in the media this morning in my province. Apparently, a man who is now in his 60s paid the man who produced it and his wife to produce a live stream via Skype. The RCMP are struggling to break through the encryption and have another three years to do this so the case can proceed to trial. My guess is that the man will serve time in Canada before being extradited to the Philippines. I don’t understand wanting to watch abuse of another living being: child, adult, human, other animal- I don’t get it. 

[Bad Wolf]

Does watching CSAM lead to actually committing child abuse? Does the "thrill" of watching, (puke) eventually not be enough? I have no idea of the statistics on this, but if I were Anna, I would be very afraid.

[Idlewild]

I don’t know about the US but in England the police produce ‘community impact statements’ so they can detail the effect of the type of offending in general terms. I haven’t personally seen it with CSA images but have seen it with weapons offences and drug dealing - the statement explains how this type of offending can devastate communities and try and dispel the myths of ‘victimless crime’

I think in CSA image cases, a federal judge will be well aware how these images come into existence and the lives that will have been destroyed in doing so. 

[Sullie06]

16 hours ago, Letgo said:

I have wondered about this. Since Josh is still claiming he didn't do the crimes he can't ask for mercy from the court. If I were a judge I'd be more inclined to come down harder on him. Will he be allowed to speak at his sentencing? Could he continue to claim innocence? Or could he claim he was mislead/didn't know the porn was there/something similar? What would an attorney advise a client to do? Ol' Josh is between a rock and a hard place. If he admits guilt and pretends he's oh so very sorry then it makes him GUILTY and isn't helpful to the family brand. If he maintains his innocence and continues to try and throw another person under the bus he's lying and could spend even more time in prison. What to do, what to do?

From my experience, they do take into account if the defendant expresses any remorse or responsibility for their actions. When we write pre-sentence investigations we ask the defendant for their version of the events that took place. We always note in the investigation if the defendant expressed remorse, regret and if they take responsibility of actions. 

 

12 hours ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

My question is - Who gets to give a victim impact statement in this situation?  My understanding is that the images are mostly old and the child victims are from places like Asia. Would the victims from his old, unprosecuted crimes be allowed to speak?  And if so, would they?  I tend to think they wouldn't but I don't really know. I suppose Jill is the only one who might, if allowed.

So typically in a case like this the victim would be "society" so they wouldn't sent out actual victim impact statements. 

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

12 hours ago, Bad Wolf said:

Does watching CSAM lead to actually committing child abuse? Does the "thrill" of watching, (puke) eventually not be enough? I have no idea of the statistics on this, but if I were Anna, I would be very afraid.

In Josh's case there is already a history. There's no excuse for Anna to think it's okay for him to be around young children regardless of any statistics.

[Alisamer]

13 hours ago, Bad Wolf said:

Does watching CSAM lead to actually committing child abuse? Does the "thrill" of watching, (puke) eventually not be enough? I have no idea of the statistics on this, but if I were Anna, I would be very afraid.

I have seen at least one psychologist (who is a true crime youtuber) who has worked in child sexual abuse who considers watching CSAM to BE molestation. I don't know what statistics say, but I personally tend to believe that... if there was no market, the material wouldn't be made, so everyone who chooses to find and watch that stuff is complicit. 

I can't imagine that the majority of pedophiles would be fine with "just watching", really. To even be able to watch that nastiness, you've got to in some way believe that it's an OK thing. And if you believe CSA is OK to watch, and therefore OK to film someone doing that, seems like it would be a very, very short step over to "it is OK to do myself". So even those who "just watch" IMO are complicit, and have the mindset that allows them to think it's OK - making them a potential danger. 

If I were Anna I'd be very afraid. Well, if I were her I'd have ditched his ass on a number of prior occasions if I had even said yes to the proposal in the first place. But she should be afraid, and concerned about protecting her children.

I think if I were in her situation I'd be seriously looking for ways to support myself and the kids, and planning to make use of the time he's incarcerated to save up, get a place to live, and talk to a good lawyer about getting everything possible out of the divorce - including whatever compensation Anna could manage to get for all the work she and the kids did on the TV shows. I'd be working on building good relations with my non-fundie siblings, and possible with Jill and Derrick if possible as well. And I'd be starting work on that tell-all book first thing!

But I still think she's waiting to see how much time he gets, to see whether it'll be more beneficial to be the meek long-suffering wife waiting at home or - less likely - to cut him off and try to build a better life. 

[Lurker]

Anna is just as creepy as Josh, Jim Bob and Michelle.  I doubt that she has empathy or understanding for anyone or thing  that is not her special interest.  It was no secret that he sexually assaulted 4 of his sisters, yet she was okay with bringing her prepubescent  Cousin Emily into her home as a mother’s helper and company for her kids.

 

[Idlewild]

The graphic descriptions of the material Josh was watching show a deeply depraved mind. He is a danger to children if he can bear to watch that stuff and not recoil in horror as most people would. I’m not sure what it will take to get that into Anna’s (and any other sympathisers’- I’m looking at you Hilary Spivey) heads.