(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 47: Serial SM Commenter Anna Silent on Family Posts Lately. I Wonder Why?

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

29 minutes ago, Freejin said:

It’s so interesting to me that a child as sheltered as him could even figure all this out. I grew up in a mainstream household. Watched regular PG13 and R movies. Used the internet without supervision. I would never in a million years have known how to figure any of this out. 

Some kids are very clever and persistent in figuring things out when they really want to. I do wonder if someone introduced him to porn though. So many male fundies are such slime bags.

[onekidanddone]

My gut tells me somebody taught Joshly how to access the dark web and CSAM. I don't know who, but there was always a revolving door at the TTH and so many in the ILBP/IFB as sketchy pervs. He also lived in the big bad Washington DC (The Axis of Evil) Rufus knows who he knew.  

[Freejin]

2 minutes ago, onekidanddone said:

My gut tells me somebody taught Joshly how to access the dark web and CSAM. I don't know who, but there was always a revolving door at the TTH and so many in the ILBP/IFB as sketchy pervs. He also lived in the big bad Washington DC (The Axis of Evil) Rufus knows who he knew.  

That’s another thing that’s so interesting. Why were so many people coming and going in that house? Serious question. How is that less dangerous than watching the occasional tv sitcom? Does anyone know the thinking behind this? Was it all in efforts to marry the kids off? 

[zee_four]

On 12/20/2021 at 12:15 PM, feministxtian said:

And you've just hit my argument against "literal translation". No such thing. I am Latina. My usual example is "una blousa roja". Literally it's "one blouse red" which makes NO sense in English because in English the adjective comes before the noun. It could also mean "the red top" or  "the red shirt". Every translation is also an interpretation. However, it would make it a hell of a lot easier for folks to be able to read the story in modern English. 

This is the argument I have with the fundies regarding "infallibility". Again, proper understanding and interpretation starts with the culture of the time (in this case 1st Century Palestine), the history of the time (Being ruled over by the Romans, the different religious factions). That precludes taking most scripture at face value. It also takes a decent education to understand this well enough to teach it to others. Most fundie preachers have no real theological education, that's why their theology sucks ass. They're starting at a deficit and just digging the hole deeper. 

Ok....enough rambling, I need to finish cleaning up my living room...ADHD strikes again!

I was born hard of hearing and raised with speech/hearing aids and sign language. There is soooooo much ignorance about ASL (American Sign Language) being a direct signing of English when its nothing close. Its actually based on LSF (French Sign Language) and is completely unintelligible with BSL (British Sign Language) and BSL related Auslan (Australian and NZ Sign Language). Just that alone blows most people's minds as they assume we have or should have a universal sign language. Same reason there's no universal spoken language :straining fake smile:

For some reason there's a lot of cross over of tiss mentality with conservative Christians who all claim to know ASL and completely butcher basics but insist they can translate for church services. Like us DHH are to be pitied and need to be ministered to. Its annoying but also really dangerous. The most recent of countless examples was the woman who claimed to be an interpreter based on "extensive" church experience was allowed by the governor and his team to interpret for the emergency broadcast announcements in Texas during the big ice storm and she completely butchered everything and only the DHH community were outraged everyone else said BS like "some is better than nothing" and "her heart is in the right place she tried". She eventually got replaced but it shouldn't have happened at all. Ever. That it did and the way most of the hearing population responded both that the Deaf community was overreacting and in the way they justified what the woman did, are both  so disgustingly offensive I can't even. DHH could have and who knows its likely some even were killed, injured or were impacted in some other major and negative way by being unable to understand the emergency announcements. Many older DHH but also some younger DHH people don't know English at all or well enough to benefit from closed captions so to assume they can rely on that instead is wrong too.

Even for DHh people who know English the level varies widely. What makes it especially hard is that ASL is so so difficult to translate fully into English and vice versa because of how spacial and visual it is, with various facial expressions conveying different grammatical components and certain handshapes called classifiers that are used in place of different signs to convey essentially a visual picture. Its truly a beautiful poetic language but its completely lost when it has to be translated into English. ASL to English suffers the most and that only fuels the belief that DHH are in some way cognitively impaired compared to hearing people. Even in my college courses, my two interpreters sign the same English words and concepts differently because there's no direct translation for most high level English words in ASL. Because ASL uses visual and emotional displays at all levels but especially to express high level and complicated concepts instead of more complicated words that are all synonyms. It makes a lot of my classes doubly hard because I have to learn both new English terminology but also have to learn new ASL terminology or be able to understand various ASL concepts that could be used to try to convey these new English terms the best

Honestly I think the trend for baby sign language has made this misconception worse, people thinking its pretty much low level ASL and that it shows all ASL is so easy and basic babies can learn it. They then interpret many DHH peoples poor English skills as signs of stupidity rather than them being native ASL users who are using a second language. The older adults especially but even some younger people sadly have been further stunted by not being exposed to full ASL by age 7 which if they can't hear enough to be exposed to some English they miss the opportunity for language development that hearing ELA individuals don't face, but both groups are stunted when they're expected to not progress in their Native language and only use English. But that's a whole different subject entirely.

Americans by and large have the hardest time understanding how there's really no such thing as a direct perfect translation between any two languages, since unless they're former ELA students or heritage speakers or the small number who continue past horrible high school language courses into college level and/or study or live abroad long enough to be fluent in a second language. Not saying other countries don't have people with the same issue just that most countries either have multiple official languages, intensive second language studies throughout every level of schooling starting in Kindergarten/elementary age or much higher rates of international travel among their populations.

If they can't do that for other spoken languages I guess its a pipe dream for people understanding that ASL is no different and a complete and full and natural language of its own with very little to no correlation with English both in its syntax as well as its grammar. So I guess its a lifetime of viral cochlear implant first time hearing videos, crappy interpreters at doctors and other important appointments and meetings, people thinking that they're helping us poor Deafies by using any and all of the crappiest level of ASL "skills" to "interpret" song lyrics which they think will make us break down thanking them for being so amazing and that we'll be so grateful we can finally understand the beauty of music that our poor disability took from us and lots of fundies and fundie light types thinking that converting us poor Deaf and hearing impaired people gives them extra Godly points because we're simple minded and disabled and God put us on earth to remind "normal" people to be grateful.

Hooray? 

Sending love and solidarity to all my bilingual FJers like @feministxtian ♡

[noseybutt]

43 minutes ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

Some kids are very clever and persistent in figuring things out when they really want to. I do wonder if someone introduced him to porn though. So many male fundies are such slime bags.

Some teens also are adept at masturbating without porn. Or maybe they don't masturbate with super high frequency. IME those are the teens that don't get as sucked into it as quickly.

There is also a cohort gap of sorts in that non-techie parents (and fundy parents especially) of that era may not have grasped what was available and/or did not have an understanding of how to monitor it. Heck, I am not much younger than the Duggar parents and way more liberal, yet dealing with electronics has been my least favorite part of parenting. The fact that his parents turned up their noses at TV but then gave him free reign on the internet is Exhibit A of "We Do Not Understand the Modern World."

[zee_four]

7 hours ago, Hera said:

Honestly? Probably never. I know grown ass man and women who were raised SBC, so not actually fundy, who squick out over the words "penis" and "vagina" (or, gasp!,  "vulva") and use euphemisms for sexual organs even as adults.   

ETA: I also wonder how a 10-12 year old Josh would know how to look up porn, secretly, on a family computer...

I've worked with many older women who were raised in Christian or religious households but not fundie, just like 1950s and 60s Catholic or Baptist households who still, after multiple children and now grandchildren, dont know the correct name for all of their reproductive anatomy or only learned it relatively recently sadly. Its still happening today in all flavors of religious fundamental communities from Hassidic Jewish to Amish to IFB communities.

 

Its a major factor (among many other major factors) that makes CSA and other types of sexual assault so insidious in these communities. Even if you were encouraged to speak up and knew you'd be believed and supported, how can you talk about your abuse with anyone if you literally don't have the words to describe it?

[Mrs. Kravitz]

57 minutes ago, PreciousPantsofDoom said:

It's not MAAN, but I absolutely love the Catherine Tate/David Tennant sketch within which Catherine (as the incorrigible Lauren Cooper,) delivers an entire Shakespearean sonnet then tells David Tennant to "bite me Alien boi! The whole sketch is perfection Imo. 

*I'd link it, but I never seem to get around to learning how to do that on my phone. It's the one where David Tennant is Lauren's new English teacher. (she isn't botherethed though. ) 

Art thou calling my father a goodly rotten apple? https://youtu.be/YHAJ4VFStUE

The Joss Whedon Much Ado About Nothing is free with ads on YouTube right now. I haven't been able to find the David Tennant one, unfortunately. 

[feministxtian]

@zee_four I worked with a kid who was doing an internship that summer. He damn near cried when I finger spelled to him. I know 3 signs, thank you, day and bullshit, but I can finger spell. I'd love to learn ASL if for no other reason than I think it is a beautiful language. 

So, if I see u this summer you'll have to teach me more signs, OK? Oh, and I think EVERYONE should at least be able to fingerspell. I mean, damn, make an effort peeps! But most "normal" folks here in the US think learning another language of any sort is an imposition on them. Ever just want to go slap the shit out of some idiot that needs it? 

[EmCatlyn]

14 hours ago, smittykins said:

My ninth-grade English class walked to our town’s(now long-closed)movie theater to watch the Franco Zeffirelli film(I assume that’s the one you mean).  I’ve heard that it isn’t  uncommon for schools to arrange private showings.

We didn’t walk, but a special bus took us.  I loved it.  Ninth grade also. 

14 hours ago, smittykins said:

We did read it, the movie was just an extra. 🙂

(The thing I remember most is the wolf whistles from the boys during Romeo’s bare-butt scene.)

Of course the movie was an extra.  We spent a week reading it, took turns reading scenes aloud, did projects…  I remember mine was about Elizabethan fashion, and a friend did the boy actors.  A couple of guys did a three dimensional Globe theater model.

[EmCatlyn]

8 hours ago, neuroticcat said:

I think it’s possible Josh could have stumbled across something, like a pop up ad or sidebar, accidentally been exposed, and then curiosity sent him looking. He also could have watched something the secular world wouldn’t necessarily consider porn (a sex scene in a movie or lingerie ad) that got through their lame filters and then he gradually sought out more. More likely, in my opinion at least, someone (either a peer like a friend or cousin or an older person like a predator) introduced him to it. I understand that’s fairly common for first exposure to porn for tween/teen boys and it can escalate pretty quickly into a compulsive cycle. 

It didn’t have to be accidental or something someone else showed him.  It may have begun as curiosity.  If he Just searched for “naked women,” he probably found a treasure trove.  From there he probably learned about other sites.

My daughter, who is just a couple of years older than Josh, did a school project on Marilyn Monroe when she was around 15.   I helped her do research on my computer, and said research involved searching for the word “blonde.”  A fair number of R-rated sites came up.  That was not unusual in those days, and even without searching you might also get e-mail inviting you to raunchy sites— at least I got them.

Edited December 22, 2021 by EmCatlyn
Grammar

[Natalie22]

4 hours ago, zee_four said:

I was born hard of hearing and raised with speech/hearing aids and sign language. There is soooooo much ignorance about ASL (American Sign Language) being a direct signing of English when its nothing close. Its actually based on LSF (French Sign Language) and is completely unintelligible with BSL (British Sign Language) and BSL related Auslan (Australian and NZ Sign Language). Just that alone blows most people's minds as they assume we have or should have a universal sign language. Same reason there's no universal spoken language :straining fake smile:

For some reason there's a lot of cross over of tiss mentality with conservative Christians who all claim to know ASL and completely butcher basics but insist they can translate for church services. Like us DHH are to be pitied and need to be ministered to. Its annoying but also really dangerous. The most recent of countless examples was the woman who claimed to be an interpreter based on "extensive" church experience was allowed by the governor and his team to interpret for the emergency broadcast announcements in Texas during the big ice storm and she completely butchered everything and only the DHH community were outraged everyone else said BS like "some is better than nothing" and "her heart is in the right place she tried". She eventually got replaced but it shouldn't have happened at all. Ever. That it did and the way most of the hearing population responded both that the Deaf community was overreacting and in the way they justified what the woman did, are both  so disgustingly offensive I can't even. DHH could have and who knows its likely some even were killed, injured or were impacted in some other major and negative way by being unable to understand the emergency announcements. Many older DHH but also some younger DHH people don't know English at all or well enough to benefit from closed captions so to assume they can rely on that instead is wrong too.

Even for DHh people who know English the level varies widely. What makes it especially hard is that ASL is so so difficult to translate fully into English and vice versa because of how spacial and visual it is, with various facial expressions conveying different grammatical components and certain handshapes called classifiers that are used in place of different signs to convey essentially a visual picture. Its truly a beautiful poetic language but its completely lost when it has to be translated into English. ASL to English suffers the most and that only fuels the belief that DHH are in some way cognitively impaired compared to hearing people. Even in my college courses, my two interpreters sign the same English words and concepts differently because there's no direct translation for most high level English words in ASL. Because ASL uses visual and emotional displays at all levels but especially to express high level and complicated concepts instead of more complicated words that are all synonyms. It makes a lot of my classes doubly hard because I have to learn both new English terminology but also have to learn new ASL terminology or be able to understand various ASL concepts that could be used to try to convey these new English terms the best

Honestly I think the trend for baby sign language has made this misconception worse, people thinking its pretty much low level ASL and that it shows all ASL is so easy and basic babies can learn it. They then interpret many DHH peoples poor English skills as signs of stupidity rather than them being native ASL users who are using a second language. The older adults especially but even some younger people sadly have been further stunted by not being exposed to full ASL by age 7 which if they can't hear enough to be exposed to some English they miss the opportunity for language development that hearing ELA individuals don't face, but both groups are stunted when they're expected to not progress in their Native language and only use English. But that's a whole different subject entirely.

Americans by and large have the hardest time understanding how there's really no such thing as a direct perfect translation between any two languages, since unless they're former ELA students or heritage speakers or the small number who continue past horrible high school language courses into college level and/or study or live abroad long enough to be fluent in a second language. Not saying other countries don't have people with the same issue just that most countries either have multiple official languages, intensive second language studies throughout every level of schooling starting in Kindergarten/elementary age or much higher rates of international travel among their populations.

If they can't do that for other spoken languages I guess its a pipe dream for people understanding that ASL is no different and a complete and full and natural language of its own with very little to no correlation with English both in its syntax as well as its grammar. So I guess its a lifetime of viral cochlear implant first time hearing videos, crappy interpreters at doctors and other important appointments and meetings, people thinking that they're helping us poor Deafies by using any and all of the crappiest level of ASL "skills" to "interpret" song lyrics which they think will make us break down thanking them for being so amazing and that we'll be so grateful we can finally understand the beauty of music that our poor disability took from us and lots of fundies and fundie light types thinking that converting us poor Deaf and hearing impaired people gives them extra Godly points because we're simple minded and disabled and God put us on earth to remind "normal" people to be grateful.

Hooray? 

Sending love and solidarity to all my bilingual FJers like @feministxtian ♡

I can't say I have much to add, but there is a group where I live that teaches ASL to the queer community.  It's a way for making LGBT spaces more friendly to a diverse group of people.  I'm pretty sure you can go to any queer event in the city and find someone there who can at least communicate basic things.

It truly is a beautiful language.  One thing I noticed from learning ASL is that it made me more comfortable expressing my emotions since it's impossible to communicate with out facial expressions and changes in body language.  As someone who has really struggled to connect with their feelings this was a completely unexpected benefit.  It's also the language I feel bravest in because I feel comfortable that I can figure out a way to get my point across.

I haven't done baby sign language before, but I have heard that the signs don't always correspond to the actual signs in ASL which seems pointless.  One youtuber who has a really interesting video on baby sign is Jessica Kellgren-Fozard.  She's a disabled lesbian parent (including deaf) and has some really interesting videos https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRjQxoDiHtM

 

[Cam]

11 hours ago, Freejin said:

It’s so interesting to me that a child as sheltered as him could even figure all this out. I grew up in a mainstream household. Watched regular PG13 and R movies. Used the internet without supervision. I would never in a million years have known how to figure any of this out. 

Some things happen by accident. I got my first computer in 1998. Among one of my earliest web searches was the White House in DC, home of the US President. You’d think, especially back then, “oh, should just be White House dot com”, right? But no. That web address was a porn site. The correct web address for what I was looking for was something like White House dot gov. And of course whoever created the white house porn site purposely did that knowing that countless people would make the same mistake I did. 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Cam

[Jana814]

My cousin was born hard of hearing in 1980. She wears hearing aids but didn’t learn sign language till she was in graduate school she picked it up quickly. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

18 hours ago, Magenta said:

I doubt it.  Unless there is some sort of active attempt to curtail said predilection, it's not going anywhere.  Prison is prison.  There's lots a person can't do but people manage to find ways to approximate their interests. 

All conventional wisdom at this point is saying he'll be houses in a unit for SO when he gets to federal.  Being with like minded people will normalize it for him and swapping stories will give them all more fodder for their imaginations.  He'll come out worse than he went in.  

[Buzzard]

37 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

All conventional wisdom at this point is saying he'll be houses in a unit for SO when he gets to federal.  Being with like minded people will normalize it for him and swapping stories will give them all more fodder for their imaginations.  He'll come out worse than he went in.  

But Smuggles is innocent!  He was FRAMED!  I dont think that he will discuss his ungodly desires with others because he thinks that he is better than these unsaved, unwashed souls.  He will preach to them as loudly as possible that they are WRONG in the hopes that the louder he proclaims himself sinless perhaps someone will believe him (including himself).  Josh will be ostracized and isolated by his own actions.

[livinginthelight]

12 hours ago, zee_four said:

I was born hard of hearing and raised with speech/hearing aids and sign language. There is soooooo much ignorance about ASL (American Sign Language) being a direct signing of English when its nothing close. Its actually based on LSF (French Sign Language) and is completely unintelligible with BSL (British Sign Language) and BSL related Auslan (Australian and NZ Sign Language). Just that alone blows most people's minds as they assume we have or should have a universal sign language. Same reason there's no universal spoken language :straining fake smile:

For some reason there's a lot of cross over of tiss mentality with conservative Christians who all claim to know ASL and completely butcher basics but insist they can translate for church services. Like us DHH are to be pitied and need to be ministered to. Its annoying but also really dangerous. The most recent of countless examples was the woman who claimed to be an interpreter based on "extensive" church experience was allowed by the governor and his team to interpret for the emergency broadcast announcements in Texas during the big ice storm and she completely butchered everything and only the DHH community were outraged everyone else said BS like "some is better than nothing" and "her heart is in the right place she tried". She eventually got replaced but it shouldn't have happened at all. Ever. That it did and the way most of the hearing population responded both that the Deaf community was overreacting and in the way they justified what the woman did, are both  so disgustingly offensive I can't even. DHH could have and who knows its likely some even were killed, injured or were impacted in some other major and negative way by being unable to understand the emergency announcements. Many older DHH but also some younger DHH people don't know English at all or well enough to benefit from closed captions so to assume they can rely on that instead is wrong too.

Even for DHh people who know English the level varies widely. What makes it especially hard is that ASL is so so difficult to translate fully into English and vice versa because of how spacial and visual it is, with various facial expressions conveying different grammatical components and certain handshapes called classifiers that are used in place of different signs to convey essentially a visual picture. Its truly a beautiful poetic language but its completely lost when it has to be translated into English. ASL to English suffers the most and that only fuels the belief that DHH are in some way cognitively impaired compared to hearing people. Even in my college courses, my two interpreters sign the same English words and concepts differently because there's no direct translation for most high level English words in ASL. Because ASL uses visual and emotional displays at all levels but especially to express high level and complicated concepts instead of more complicated words that are all synonyms. It makes a lot of my classes doubly hard because I have to learn both new English terminology but also have to learn new ASL terminology or be able to understand various ASL concepts that could be used to try to convey these new English terms the best

Honestly I think the trend for baby sign language has made this misconception worse, people thinking its pretty much low level ASL and that it shows all ASL is so easy and basic babies can learn it. They then interpret many DHH peoples poor English skills as signs of stupidity rather than them being native ASL users who are using a second language. The older adults especially but even some younger people sadly have been further stunted by not being exposed to full ASL by age 7 which if they can't hear enough to be exposed to some English they miss the opportunity for language development that hearing ELA individuals don't face, but both groups are stunted when they're expected to not progress in their Native language and only use English. But that's a whole different subject entirely.

Americans by and large have the hardest time understanding how there's really no such thing as a direct perfect translation between any two languages, since unless they're former ELA students or heritage speakers or the small number who continue past horrible high school language courses into college level and/or study or live abroad long enough to be fluent in a second language. Not saying other countries don't have people with the same issue just that most countries either have multiple official languages, intensive second language studies throughout every level of schooling starting in Kindergarten/elementary age or much higher rates of international travel among their populations.

If they can't do that for other spoken languages I guess its a pipe dream for people understanding that ASL is no different and a complete and full and natural language of its own with very little to no correlation with English both in its syntax as well as its grammar. So I guess its a lifetime of viral cochlear implant first time hearing videos, crappy interpreters at doctors and other important appointments and meetings, people thinking that they're helping us poor Deafies by using any and all of the crappiest level of ASL "skills" to "interpret" song lyrics which they think will make us break down thanking them for being so amazing and that we'll be so grateful we can finally understand the beauty of music that our poor disability took from us and lots of fundies and fundie light types thinking that converting us poor Deaf and hearing impaired people gives them extra Godly points because we're simple minded and disabled and God put us on earth to remind "normal" people to be grateful.

 

Thank you so much for taking the time to write this. I had no idea, and it's appalling to me that I've been so uninformed.

[imokit]

33 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

But Smuggles is innocent!  He was FRAMED!  I dont think that he will discuss his ungodly desires with others because he thinks that he is better than these unsaved, unwashed souls.  He will preach to them as loudly as possible that they are WRONG in the hopes that the louder he proclaims himself sinless perhaps someone will believe him (including himself).  Josh will be ostracized and isolated by his own actions.

Throughout the trial I kept waiting for anyone to say that officially.  Even JB and M didn't publicly say he was framed or innocent. I thought that was the most glaring bit about the whole thing.  His parents proclaimed support and love for him, but never once said he was innocent.  Nor did any of his siblings.

I can't think of many famous people who get locked up and then have siblings saying he did it and the justice system was right.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

13 hours ago, zee_four said:

For some reason there's a lot of cross over of tiss mentality with conservative Christians who all claim to know ASL and completely butcher basics but insist they can translate for church services. Like us DHH are to be pitied and need to be ministered to. Its annoying but also really dangerous. The most recent of countless examples was the woman who claimed to be an interpreter based on "extensive" church experience was allowed by the governor and his team to interpret for the emergency broadcast announcements in Texas during the big ice storm and she completely butchered everything and only the DHH community were outraged everyone else said BS like "some is better than nothing" and "her heart is in the right place she tried". She eventually got replaced but it shouldn't have happened at all.

What state was this? 

[SassyPants]

I think having known of Josh’s earlier crimes against young girls, JB and M chose to avoid talking about his guilt vs innocence. They all know. He should have saved the family a boat load of money and pled guilty from the start.

[Caroline]

13 hours ago, zee_four said:

I was born hard of hearing and raised with speech/hearing aids and sign language. There is soooooo much ignorance about ASL (American Sign Language) being a direct signing of English when its nothing close. Its actually based on LSF (French Sign Language) and is completely unintelligible with BSL (British Sign Language) and BSL related Auslan (Australian and NZ Sign Language). Just that alone blows most people's minds as they assume we have or should have a universal sign language. Same reason there's no universal spoken language :straining fake smile:

For some reason there's a lot of cross over of tiss mentality with conservative Christians who all claim to know ASL and completely butcher basics but insist they can translate for church services. Like us DHH are to be pitied and need to be ministered to. Its annoying but also really dangerous. The most recent of countless examples was the woman who claimed to be an interpreter based on "extensive" church experience was allowed by the governor and his team to interpret for the emergency broadcast announcements in Texas during the big ice storm and she completely butchered everything and only the DHH community were outraged everyone else said BS like "some is better than nothing" and "her heart is in the right place she tried". She eventually got replaced but it shouldn't have happened at all. Ever. That it did and the way most of the hearing population responded both that the Deaf community was overreacting and in the way they justified what the woman did, are both  so disgustingly offensive I can't even. DHH could have and who knows its likely some even were killed, injured or were impacted in some other major and negative way by being unable to understand the emergency announcements. Many older DHH but also some younger DHH people don't know English at all or well enough to benefit from closed captions so to assume they can rely on that instead is wrong too.

Even for DHh people who know English the level varies widely. What makes it especially hard is that ASL is so so difficult to translate fully into English and vice versa because of how spacial and visual it is, with various facial expressions conveying different grammatical components and certain handshapes called classifiers that are used in place of different signs to convey essentially a visual picture. Its truly a beautiful poetic language but its completely lost when it has to be translated into English. ASL to English suffers the most and that only fuels the belief that DHH are in some way cognitively impaired compared to hearing people. Even in my college courses, my two interpreters sign the same English words and concepts differently because there's no direct translation for most high level English words in ASL. Because ASL uses visual and emotional displays at all levels but especially to express high level and complicated concepts instead of more complicated words that are all synonyms. It makes a lot of my classes doubly hard because I have to learn both new English terminology but also have to learn new ASL terminology or be able to understand various ASL concepts that could be used to try to convey these new English terms the best

Honestly I think the trend for baby sign language has made this misconception worse, people thinking its pretty much low level ASL and that it shows all ASL is so easy and basic babies can learn it. They then interpret many DHH peoples poor English skills as signs of stupidity rather than them being native ASL users who are using a second language. The older adults especially but even some younger people sadly have been further stunted by not being exposed to full ASL by age 7 which if they can't hear enough to be exposed to some English they miss the opportunity for language development that hearing ELA individuals don't face, but both groups are stunted when they're expected to not progress in their Native language and only use English. But that's a whole different subject entirely.

Americans by and large have the hardest time understanding how there's really no such thing as a direct perfect translation between any two languages, since unless they're former ELA students or heritage speakers or the small number who continue past horrible high school language courses into college level and/or study or live abroad long enough to be fluent in a second language. Not saying other countries don't have people with the same issue just that most countries either have multiple official languages, intensive second language studies throughout every level of schooling starting in Kindergarten/elementary age or much higher rates of international travel among their populations.

If they can't do that for other spoken languages I guess its a pipe dream for people understanding that ASL is no different and a complete and full and natural language of its own with very little to no correlation with English both in its syntax as well as its grammar. So I guess its a lifetime of viral cochlear implant first time hearing videos, crappy interpreters at doctors and other important appointments and meetings, people thinking that they're helping us poor Deafies by using any and all of the crappiest level of ASL "skills" to "interpret" song lyrics which they think will make us break down thanking them for being so amazing and that we'll be so grateful we can finally understand the beauty of music that our poor disability took from us and lots of fundies and fundie light types thinking that converting us poor Deaf and hearing impaired people gives them extra Godly points because we're simple minded and disabled and God put us on earth to remind "normal" people to be grateful.

Hooray? 

Sending love and solidarity to all my bilingual FJers like @feministxtian ♡

My sister worked for 40 years as a school psychologist at a school for the blind where there were also many Deaf students.  She worked with the Deaf/Blind population  primarily and is a skilled ASL interpreter.  She is a hearing person with a true talent (and tons of education) in interpreting, and has interpreted for some famous people at college commencements and other events..   I am a foreign language teacher who teaches two modern languages.  Everything you say about ASL and spoken language learning in our society is exactly what I believe too.  We just don't get it in our culture that there are so many benefits to learning another language no matter which one you choose.  The reason kids don't have good second language skills at the end of a typical high school curriculum is because they start learning so late compared to other kids in the world who are required to learn one or two additional languages beginning in elementary school.  Our attitude about English speaking only is deplorable and hasn't budged very much since I started teaching in the 80's. I remember when the first things cut from the budget were always art, music and foreign languages.    My sister also would second everything you said about ASL as a language unto itself with no comparison to other cultures' sign languages.  She also can't stand the trend of teaching hearing babies sign language and has always said that it's just a little 'extra'.  To me it seems like a kind of weird cultural appropriation.

Fun story:  My sister once volunteered to interpret at church services at an evangelical church when she was trying to gain real experience in the field. (At the time she was acquiring her first degree in Deaf education, and had real coursework behind her.) The church had Deaf members and really needed someone to interpret for them but they wouldn't let her do it (She would not have been paid) because she told them she had been raised Catholic and might give the wrong information to the Deaf parishioners.  That's when I first realized how paranoid evangelicals can be.  

One more story:  I am a terrible ASL speaker (but I try- I can finger spell at least) and my sister is a terrible speaker of spoken languages.  We make fun of each other all the time

 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Caroline

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