(Possible Child Sexual Abuse Content) Josh and Anna 34: Plea Deal in the Making?

[SassyPants]

Anna is PG with #7, right? Or is it 8? I have lost track-

[Smee]

6 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Anna is PG with #7, right? Or is it 8? I have lost track-

#7. Due before Josh’s trial but with their usual spacing I highly doubt there’ll be a #8 unless she’s still fertile when he gets out.

[FundamentallyShocked]

10 hours ago, feministxtian said:

Even if you manage to survive leaving (or he physically throws you out), you STILL aren't safe.

 

Bravo! Well said.

A woman in Minnesota was beheaded in broad daylight on a public street by a domestic abuser. There is video. I encourage you not to watch. I won't link. I think there is a very valid reason to stay when the alternative is death or death of your children. Some situations are that toxic. I feel for Anna. I don't blame her. But, I do not expect her to divorce or leave.

[SPHASH]

I lost all sympathy for Anna after Ashley Madison.  When the molestation story came out I was more sympathetic as I dont think JB and Michelle weren't truthful with her about it when she and Josh were courting.  After Ashley Madison she went and had two more kids with him.  Gross.

Edited August 2, 2021 by SPHASH

[theotherelise]

Does anyone know if there is a floor plan available for the warehouse? Or a tour of it?

[SassyPants]

Get ready for my usual JB and M Duggar rant… we all know Josh is eff’d up beyond belief, but what has had to have happened to you to make you default to and accept Josh and Anna’s current life?

How do you become 33 YO and a father of 7 without developing any sense of independence, self worth, dignity or pride?

How did living in an over/hypersexualized household affect Josh?

Why was he never able to stand up to parents to voice his adult plan for life? Instead he chose the path of evil, thereby destroying many lives. 
 

I blame much of this on JB and M- They really did a number on Josh. Of course we saw Jill stand up for herself, and look how JB responded. 
 

Ultimately Jill wins, and I hope other siblings take note.

I know in other countries many people live in multi-generation homes, which is great. It’s a system where everyone helps  and supports each other. This is not Anna’s setup. Josh and Anna were basically hidden away. It is a continuation of JB’s pathological controlling ways.

Edited August 2, 2021 by SassyPants

[RosyDaisy]

16 hours ago, SweetLaurel said:

 So you would go to jail and they would go to foster care?  Most people don't get away with 'accidents'.   

And leaving kids in an abusive situation is the better alternative?

[feministxtian]

1 hour ago, RosyDaisy said:

And leaving kids in an abusive situation is the better alternative?

If you've never been in the situation, you won't understand. 24 years after the divorce, my X STILL wouldn't think twice about offing me. I know why he was so abusive to me, not that it changed anything. He's STILL jealous, he's jealous of my accomplishments since the divorce. When he kicked me and the kids out, the last thing he said to me is "I'll see you dead in a gutter before I give you a dime". In court, when asked about child support/spousal support, he said "I'm not giving that bitch one thin dime and you can't make me". When our son turned 18 and the X got to stop paying child support (he actually still is in violation of the order but I don't care anymore), he swore up and down that we'd lose our house, we'd lose my new SUV. Somehow in his sick mind, the 500 bucks a month he paid in child support was paying my mortgage and car payment. 

My kids and I are STILL dealing with the aftermath of the abuse. BUT, I'd rather be here with my kids, as fucked up as we all are, than either dead or in prison. 

[Alisamer]

18 hours ago, Tatar-tot said:

The only way Anna will get divorced is if Josh is in jail for an extended period of time (10 to 20 years) and she falls in love with another man. Otherwise, it won’t happen.  
Anna will probably continue to live on the Duggars property, end up with welfare/food stamps/Medicaid along with JB handouts.  
JB/Michelle will throw her a bone here and there.  Anna will continue to be sweet & star in TLC’s latest show something like PRISON WIVES.  
Anna is not a sharp knife.  She is not a trail blazer.  Anna will take the path of least resistance. 
The only way something different would happen is if JB disowned Josh.  In all honesty I don’t ever see that happening no matter how abhorrent Josh’s behavior is. 

I'd be willing to check out a Prison Wives show if Anna had to interact with a variety of other women whose husbands are in prison. She could use the exposure to other people and other viewpoints. Are there support groups for women with incarcerated husbands? Seems like that would be something good for Anna. Not that she'd go, but still.

I was watching a true crime podcast on Youtube this weekend (Emma Kenny, I think) and she was emphatic that a person who watches child sexual abuse is a child molester, even if they've never laid hands on a child personally. I think I agree, and if I was Anna I'd want to get my kids away from him. But... having 6 kids and being pregnant with another, living in his parents' warehouse on their land, beholden to their handouts to survive? I can see how she would feel stuck. 

I think the best chance for Anna is if Josh gets a long enough prison sentence for her to get her life together without him present. I think at first she'll probably milk being the mommy martyr sticking by her ever-repenting husband. But when she gets used to him not being there, life is all in order, she's got no kids in diapers for the first time in ages, and then suddenly his release is pending? That's when she might actually stop and think about whether she's better off without him. Will she really want his scandal-ridden self upending her whole life?

I also think it willl be interesting see what happens in Duggarland in general over the next several years. If Anna sees Jill being happy with her kids in school and maybe Jill will get a job or go to school herself - if any of the others decide not to have a zillion kids, maybe another will send the kids to school, etc...  Maybe, just maybe, Anna will think "I could do that."

She probably needs to see options before she can consider them as actual options. 

[Jackie3]

On 8/1/2021 at 5:35 AM, Smee said:

Because holding them responsible allows us to pretend that it’s the fault of individual victims, not the society that creates and enables perpetrators. It allows us to pretend that there is a victim “type” (there isn’t - strong, independent women of all races, education levels and economic backgrounds fall victim to domestic abuse) who is lacking something, and therefore it could never happen to us. It’s easier to place blame on the woman for not leaving than to reckon with the failures of culture and society and the justice system that allow men to behave like this time and time again.

 

Sounds like you don't think child rape is important enough to report. I can't agree. 

 

[mamallama]

Another thing to consider is if a woman leaves she still may not be able to keep the kids away from the abuser.  She won't even be there with them.  My neice is going through that right now and the kid's dad even has a guilty plea for lewd and lacivious conduct with a child which got expunged.  The school is involved and his doctor but the judge is holding firm if she doesn't bring him for visitation the judge will grant full custody to the father.  

[feministxtian]

12 minutes ago, mamallama said:

Another thing to consider is if a woman leaves she still may not be able to keep the kids away from the abuser.  She won't even be there with them.  My neice is going through that right now and the kid's dad even has a guilty plea for lewd and lacivious conduct with a child which got expunged.  The school is involved and his doctor but the judge is holding firm if she doesn't bring him for visitation the judge will grant full custody to the father.  

YES!!!!! Most accusations of child abuse against a parent are considered "sour grapes" in divorce proceedings. I tried. I had pictures, doctor's records, my kid's own testimony and the judge STILL granted him visitation that included 6-8 weeks in the summer, 800 miles from where I lived. And, yes, judges threaten to give the allegedly abusive spouse full custody if the other one raises too much hell. Happened to a friend. Took her 6 years to get her kids back. Her X finally got busted for meth, after she had been telling the court for YEARS that he was an addict. 

Again, it is SO easy to make pronouncements from the outside. These abusers are usually, if not intelligent, very manipulative, capable of lying with a smile on their faces and convincing the court that the victimized spouse is the one who is in dire need of psychological help and in some cases, manage to convince the court that the VICTIM spouse is the one that is a danger to the children. 

Unless you've been in that world, you have NO IDEA what it's like to live through it. If you haven't dealt with the courts, you have no idea. Unless you've witnessed your children being manipulated by their abuser and they end up so confused as to what is real and what isn't, when their abuser manages to manipulate the child to turn against the victim parent. Unless you have the time and money to pay the lawyers, the forensic psychiatrists, the testing, etc. it ends up becoming a game of spending someone into the poorhouse. In many of these cases, the abuser is the one who also has the financial ability to pay the lawyers over and over again. 

 

[EmCatlyn]

7 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Anna is PG with #7, right? Or is it 8? I have lost track-

Only #7.  Some folks here are speculating after this one is born, Anna and Josh will hurry to get one more bun in the oven before he goes to prison.  That’s the hypothetical #8.  For some people it is almost a given there will be a #8, but so far #8 has not been conceived.

 

[EmCatlyn]

3 hours ago, Alisamer said:

I'd be willing to check out a Prison Wives show if Anna had to interact with a variety of other women whose husbands are in prison. She could use the exposure to other people and other viewpoints. Are there support groups for women with incarcerated husbands? Seems like that would be something good for Anna. Not that she'd go, but still.

I was watching a true crime podcast on Youtube this weekend (Emma Kenny, I think) and she was emphatic that a person who watches child sexual abuse is a child molester, even if they've never laid hands on a child personally. I think I agree, and if I was Anna I'd want to get my kids away from him. But... having 6 kids and being pregnant with another, living in his parents' warehouse on their land, beholden to their handouts to survive? I can see how she would feel stuck. 

I think the best chance for Anna is if Josh gets a long enough prison sentence for her to get her life together without him present. I think at first she'll probably milk being the mommy martyr sticking by her ever-repenting husband. But when she gets used to him not being there, life is all in order, she's got no kids in diapers for the first time in ages, and then suddenly his release is pending? That's when she might actually stop and think about whether she's better off without him. Will she really want his scandal-ridden self upending her whole life?

I also think it willl be interesting see what happens in Duggarland in general over the next several years. If Anna sees Jill being happy with her kids in school and maybe Jill will get a job or go to school herself - if any of the others decide not to have a zillion kids, maybe another will send the kids to school, etc...  Maybe, just maybe, Anna will think "I could do that."

She probably needs to see options before she can consider them as actual options. 

I mostly agree that Anna may not see any other options, but I don’t think she’ll “see” them from watching Jill or other Duggar kids who may do things differently.  After all, three of her own siblings broke away to some extent, and that didn’t inspire her.  After Ashley Madison her brother offered her help.  She had fewer kids then, at least two sisters who would have supported her, and parents who might not approve or help but would not disown her.  (They didn’t disown the others.) She might have had a legal claim on some property that was in her name, and she could have gotten out.  She didn’t.

If her own siblings’ example and support didn’t work, I doubt Duggar in-laws will be inspiring her.  But who knows.

Most people who seek divorce experience a moment when they confront how bad their marriage has become and from that point they are ready to act.  We don’t know what it will take for Anna to reach that point.

Edited August 2, 2021 by EmCatlyn
Word left out. Fix.

[Alisamer]

3 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

 

If her own siblings’ example and support didn’t work, I doubt Duggar in-laws will be inspiring her.  But who knows.

 

True, I'm just thinking quantity, though. Like after having done just fine without him, and maybe deciding she wants to earn some of her own money rather than beg at JB's feet for every scrap, seeing not only her own siblings but a few Duggars doing better as well might help. Especially if it's someone who doesn't get completely shut out like Jill.

[EmCatlyn]

2 hours ago, Jackie3 said:

Sounds like you don't think child rape is important enough to report. I can't agree. 

 

I don’t think that is what @Smee was saying.  As I understood it, the point Smee was making was that if you grant that the mother is also a victim (of emotional abuse/gaslighting if nothing else) to punish her for not reporting is to punish her for being a victim.  

The whole situation is very complicated because a person who does not report abuse out of fear that she or her kids may be killed or otherwise hurt more is not the same as the person who callously ignores abuse of a child because of indifference or laziness or whatever.  

The Patty Hearst case, mentioned earlier is a bad comparison because Hearst participated in a bank robbery.  Even though she had been kidnapped, tortured, brainwashed, etc, the issue was that she did something, she acted with the group in committing a crime. (Even then, there were many who argued for leniency and if the case had not been so publicized and there hadn’t been a fear that leniency would be attributed to her family’s wealth, she might not have done prison time.)

The situation with an abused partner who fails to report abuse is not parallel.  It would only be parallel if the abused partner participated or actively facilitated the abuse. (For example tying a kid down or threatening a kid.) 

We have to stop trying to fit everything in black/white little boxes.  It is possible to hold people responsible without treating them like criminals.

I would say a possible solution would be to put abused partners who did not report the abuse of their children on some sort of parole program where they have to attend therapy and parenting classes or whatever for a period of time after which the record is cleaned. (They do something like this for many first-time drug offenders.) It would hold the abused partner “responsible” but without condemnation, and instead of punishment offer help for the family.

It is important, I think, to look at the big picture.  If we (as a society) offered better resources and protection for victims of abuse who try to get out, more would probably make the effort and many children might be saved.  If, on the other hand, all we can offer is condemnation and punishment, we support the abuser’s agenda.

[Smash!]

20 hours ago, Coconut Flan said:

My mother moved 2350 miles away when my father began stalking her.  I only moved a couple hundred, but he wasn't as interested in me.  

It is a scandal and proof of how little women are valued in society that so many abusers get away with what they‘re doing and that police and courts usually don’t believe those victims. It‘s just sickening.

[BensAllergies]

It will depend on how long he is in jail, but I can see the hypothetical that an incarceration would make Anna’s heart grow fonder. She might even romanticize being the wife of a man in jail. She will revel in the sympathy she might garner from her closest circles, and she might spend more time pining over her sweetheart than growing into her own individual identity.

If she is still fertile upon his release, then she will long for the chance for a redemption at her marriage with another kid or two. She is Joshy’s girl forever and always, and she will not be interested in creating an identity beyond her wifely roles and duties. Twenty to thirty years from now she could possibly  be the next gen Lori who chides women on how they contribute to societal ills that lead men astray.

I would love to be proved wrong.

[Bad Wolf]

I know a situation where dad has custody, because mom is nuts. She fired a gun in the house. She drags him to court frequently, and the judge gave her unsupervised visitation. The kid hates going to mom, because mom has a new baby and ignores the child. Think Christmas with loads of presents for the baby, just a few months old, and none for the kid. She doesn't want the kid, but wants to put dad through hell. His parents have shelled out big bucks on lawyers, but mom smiles sweetly through tears and the judge gives her whatever she wants. It's a sad situation, and so hard on the poor kid. 

[RosyDaisy]

7 hours ago, feministxtian said:

If you've never been in the situation, you won't understand. 24 years after the divorce, my X STILL wouldn't think twice about offing me. I know why he was so abusive to me, not that it changed anything. He's STILL jealous, he's jealous of my accomplishments since the divorce. When he kicked me and the kids out, the last thing he said to me is "I'll see you dead in a gutter before I give you a dime". In court, when asked about child support/spousal support, he said "I'm not giving that bitch one thin dime and you can't make me". When our son turned 18 and the X got to stop paying child support (he actually still is in violation of the order but I don't care anymore), he swore up and down that we'd lose our house, we'd lose my new SUV. Somehow in his sick mind, the 500 bucks a month he paid in child support was paying my mortgage and car payment. 

My kids and I are STILL dealing with the aftermath of the abuse. BUT, I'd rather be here with my kids, as fucked up as we all are, than either dead or in prison. 

The point I was trying to make is how is leaving children in an abusive situation better than them being in foster care.

[NancyDrewFan1989]

13 hours ago, Smee said:

#7. Due before Josh’s trial but with their usual spacing I highly doubt there’ll be a #8 unless she’s still fertile when he gets out.

#8 for me is up in the air for them. If Josh is allowed out on parole during his trial, then it is possible that Anna could become pregnant with #8. Like most people on here, I hope that does not happen. But, it is possible depending on the length of the trial and whether or not Josh is allowed out and him having his "time alone" with Anna. Josh getting Anna pregnant again would be the worst thing he could do for her right before a, very possible, lengthy prison sentence.

[Dandruff]

4 minutes ago, NancyDrewFan1989 said:

#8 for me is up in the air for them. If Josh is allowed out on parole during his trial, then it is possible that Anna could become pregnant with #8. Like most people on here, I hope that does not happen. But, it is possible depending on the length of the trial and whether or not Josh is allowed out and him having his "time alone" with Anna. Josh getting Anna pregnant again would be the worst thing he could do for her right before a, very possible, lengthy prison sentence.

I doubt Josh was thrilled about #s3-7 and I don't think he or JB would have any interest in producing or paying for a #8.  More of their children won't, IMO, do a thing for the family finances or their Christian image.  Anna can argue their marriage vows about not limiting family size but might think twice if her allowance and/or helpers thin out.

[Cults-r-us]

20 hours ago, Jrodseyeliner said:

Why would Anna move? She is in the windowless warehouse for life.. 

I think Anna was totally starry-eyes thrilled with Josh, totally thrilled with the Duggars and the opportunity to enter into fundie royalty. Anna was all-in on no birth control, eleventy kids, frumpers, home-schooling, the whole shtick. She believed that life was a dream come true. She is not giving up her status without a fight. Josh was probably not thrilled with his punishment of having to get married to curb his horny ways. Their relationship was mbalanced from the start, but Anna did not know that. She did not understand her prince's husband's parents made him get married or that he needed freedom to find his own way.

Anna has done her best to make this sow's ear of a relationship into a TLC silk purse. Josh may love her?and the kids but his problems are too big and he has not shown himself capable of battling through them.

 

[Smee]

8 hours ago, Jackie3 said:

Sounds like you don't think child rape is important enough to report. I can't agree. 

 

Child rape is important enough to STOP, and I want us to change the systems to protect women and children, to make it safe for them to report and to give them confidence that reporting will actually make it stop and not leave them dead and/or bankrupt and separated from their children while the rapist still has unsupervised access.

Reporting is the beginning of the process of getting an abuser away from a child, not the end, and we need to give victims confidence that they will reach the end.

[Bad Wolf]

I don't think there'll be #8. Anna is not that fertile, unlike Michelle. At least, not so far.