Justin and Claire 2: Always the One I Forget

[Kjaerringa]

On 12/1/2020 at 9:12 AM, HeartsAFundie said:

 

 The ferries could have banned non- Massachusetts residents from boarding and demanded to see IDs confirming residency.  Ditto with airports-MA residents only.  Only MA day trippers allowed.  

Actually, no, they could not do that. I am a part time resident (with 5 generations of fulltime family in my history) of a Midwestern island that is accessible only by ferry or by private aircraft. The ferry common carrier licenses (and commercial aviation, too) are required by federal law not to discriminate between whom they carry and do not carry as passengers. Believe me, we tried very hard to keep traffic low during the early stages...in fact, our entire touris oriented county put out a message: 'Please don't come now, even if you own a 2nd home. We don't have enough supplies, most stores are closed in winter, and we do not have enough medical care to take care of all who may need it'.  The Island looked into limiting ferry traffic...well, some people did...but the ferry line explained the legalities.

What happened instead was that people who had hotels or places to rent in winter simply refused to rent, and there was a sign at the dock on the mainland saying you had to quarantine for 14 days on arrival, in order to go to the one grocery and one hardware store, and notifying people that the park restrooms were closed, as well as ALL restaurants, all bike rentals, etc. The park restrooms are always closed in winter, as well as most of the restaurants, anyway. That worked until the state Supreme Court overturned the Safer at Home Act just before Labor Day, and after a June that just kept ramping up, July and August were nuts...leading to an absolute explosion of cases in a place with one hospital that normally has 25 hospital beds available, TOTAL, for a county that is 78 miles long.

I am teaching from home now, as is my husband, since we are closed due to case load in our area, and I am quarantining. Drive through or curbside pickup for everything. It's an Etsy kind of Christmas. This is all in hopes we'll be able to go up and safely see my 87 year old Mom for Christmas...and celebrate her 88th birthday. My daughter had Covid a month ago, so we figure she will be ok for Christmas, as it is less than 2 months later...and my son and his kjaerringa are quarantining as much as possible...she is also a teacher, so home, and he works as a 2nd shift line supervisor for an FBO at the airport, so he sees fewer people than he would if he were on days. It's hard on everyone...everyone has their stories. Covid just socks worse than the Duggar version of tater tot hot dish. (My Grandma's recipe has actual seasonings and real veggies and is the bomb diggity.)

[HeartsAFundie]

3 hours ago, Kjaerringa said:

Actually, no, they could not do that. I am a part time resident (with 5 generations of fulltime family in my history) of a Midwestern island that is accessible only by ferry or by private aircraft. The ferry common carrier licenses (and commercial aviation, too) are required by federal law not to discriminate between whom they carry and do not carry as passengers. Believe me, we tried very hard to keep traffic low during the early stages...in fact, our entire touris oriented county put out a message: 'Please don't come now, even if you own a 2nd home. We don't have enough supplies, most stores are closed in winter, and we do not have enough medical care to take care of all who may need it'.  The Island looked into limiting ferry traffic...well, some people did...but the ferry line explained the legalities.

What happened instead was that people who had hotels or places to rent in winter simply refused to rent, and there was a sign at the dock on the mainland saying you had to quarantine for 14 days on arrival, in order to go to the one grocery and one hardware store, and notifying people that the park restrooms were closed, as well as ALL restaurants, all bike rentals, etc. The park restrooms are always closed in winter, as well as most of the restaurants, anyway. That worked until the state Supreme Court overturned the Safer at Home Act just before Labor Day, and after a June that just kept ramping up, July and August were nuts...leading to an absolute explosion of cases in a place with one hospital that normally has 25 hospital beds available, TOTAL, for a county that is 78 miles long.

I am teaching from home now, as is my husband, since we are closed due to case load in our area, and I am quarantining. Drive through or curbside pickup for everything. It's an Etsy kind of Christmas. This is all in hopes we'll be able to go up and safely see my 87 year old Mom for Christmas...and celebrate her 88th birthday. My daughter had Covid a month ago, so we figure she will be ok for Christmas, as it is less than 2 months later...and my son and his kjaerringa are quarantining as much as possible...she is also a teacher, so home, and he works as a 2nd shift line supervisor for an FBO at the airport, so he sees fewer people than he would if he were on days. It's hard on everyone...everyone has their stories. Covid just socks worse than the Duggar version of tater tot hot dish. (My Grandma's recipe has actual seasonings and real veggies and is the bomb diggity.)

Actually, your island's (Mackinac?) approach makes more sense then the ferries refusing out of state passengers.   Come if you must, but we won't make it easy for you to enjoy it.  Lesson learned. 

My employer has us returning to the office in four phases.  I am in Phase 4 which means I don't return to the physical workplace until social distancing requirements CEASE-no masks, no 6' minimum, no nothing-and I am working from home until that time as I have been doing since March 16.  We joked that I am going to end up retiring from my home-I could retire now if I wanted to but there's really no point in it for me at this time- but I'm not laughing over it anymore as it seems to be more of a reality now than ever.  My son has been working from home since March like me and has no idea when he's returning to his office, especially since he works in neighboring Rhode Island which as of November 30 is temporarily shut down for two weeks.   Crazy, crazy times. 

[Smee]

On 12/3/2020 at 12:12 AM, OHFL2009 said:

I would've starved to death; there's no grocery store within 3 miles of my house ?

Although there is a cattle field at the end of my street, so I guess if we got hungry enough, we could figure out how to get some beef. 

Rules were different in regional and rural areas, from the sound of things @baldricks_turnip lives in Melbourne. And I think if there was no grocery store in your radius it was just a matter of only being allowed to go to the closest one and having to explain that during police checks.

But yes, I’m in NSW where borders were closed to Vic for ages. Because we had travellers from Vic just before their lockdown, we had a bunch of cases too and all the other states closed their borders to us. Actually we’ve had cases more recently than Vic and were slower to get back to days with 0 (we never had a mass lockdown, just contact tracing & individual quarantines) so it would have been reasonable for THEIR government to be the one wanting the NSW/Vic border to stay closed. I’m a little surprised US states with better case numbers and stronger restrictions didn’t close their borders, is that not legal over there?

It’s still extremely difficult and expensive for citizens overseas to get back to Aus. Anyone who CAN manage to afford and book a seat on one of the limited international flights gets a police escort to a hotel where they quarantine for 2 weeks, are tested during that time and again at the end of it, and workers at the hotels wear PPE and are tested weekly. Then once you’re here and negative, there are still (light) restrictions in place. They just lifted some restrictions at the start of this month and my church has been scrambling because we thought we wouldn’t be able to do Christmas carols this year (at our weekly services, congregational singing hasn’t been allowed and there’s a cap on numbers based on building size) but it turns out we can hold them outdoors with appropriate distancing. This is in an area without a single case for months, so Texas allowing 75% capacity indoors is fucking insane to me.

When it comes to ferries and islands I guess I assumed it would be a bit like flying home here - you can do it, but seats are so limited and expensive that it’s impractical and once you arrive you have to quarantine. Although then I suppose it’s just as hard and expensive for locals too.

[HeartsAFundie]

16 hours ago, Smee said:

I’m a little surprised US states with better case numbers and stronger restrictions didn’t close their borders, is that not legal over there?

 

I don't know if people can be outright banned from entering a state but they are expected to at least follow the state's quarantine laws upon entering.  However, there are still plenty of folks that just don't care.  And that goes both ways.  

Massachusetts travel order lacks enforcement, records show (wcvb.com)

Living in MA, we are within 2.5 hours driving distance at the most from 6 other states-RI, CT, NH, VT, ME, and NY.  This past summer we made a very well-planned day trip to Foxwoods Resort And Casino in CT, about an hour driving distance for us. At that time, Foxwoods posted that along with several other states, RI residents were banned because their state was in the red zone; however MA residents were welcome to come.  Based on this, we felt comfortable going, so off we went. 

When we entered Foxwoods, our temperatures were taken and we had to answer the general COVID health questions.   Masks were required to enter and must remain on at all times, all buffet restaurants were closed, only two casino rooms were open, every other slot machine was shut down to allow social distancing, plexiglass walls were built around the open machines,  hand sanitizer and disposable wipe dispensers were everywhere, and upon leaving a machine, you had to press the service button which would alert an employee that an open machine was disabled and had to be sanitized.  They really seemed to go all out to keep patrons healthy and safe. 

However, the irony wasn't lost on myself, my husband, my son and his girlfriend that no one checked out our licenses at the door to prove we were from one of the "good" states, and there was a plethora of cars with Rhode Island license plates with us in the customer parking garage. 

Edited December 5, 2020 by HeartsAFundie

[GuineaPigCourtship]

We are in CT and live about 40 minutes from the casinos. We usually go once or twice a year for dinner or a show and ended up going for dinner for our anniversary when most things were reopened in the state. I was impressed by the casino restrictions and there were very few patrons present. I hate gambling - why is imaginary money better than real money? - so we rarely put anything in the machines but did have to walk through. I would for sure not go now with the cases increasing again.

[HeartsAFundie]

3 hours ago, GuineaPigCourtship said:

We are in CT and live about 40 minutes from the casinos. We usually go once or twice a year for dinner or a show and ended up going for dinner for our anniversary when most things were reopened in the state. I was impressed by the casino restrictions and there were very few patrons present. I hate gambling - why is imaginary money better than real money? - so we rarely put anything in the machines but did have to walk through. I would for sure not go now with the cases increasing again.

I don't put much in the machines myself.  When we go we normally play a little, then eat, then shop, then play a little again, then leave.  We try to make a whole day out of it.  When we went this summer my son and husband went to the indoor go-cart speedway, which was something totally out of our usual casino realm.   And although I felt safe enough there with all the precautions being taken, I 100% agree with you about staying away until we get the cases down even with the Foxwoods website says all New England state residents are welcome at this time.  

Edited December 6, 2020 by HeartsAFundie

[theotherelise]

@Smee If you just look at this part of the US around the Duggar’s, you’ll see four different states with the major highways crossing between them.

If you zoom closer, you’ll see even more routes to go from state to state. Many people live on one side and commute to work in another. It would be essentially impossible to regulate the borders of a state if you wanted to. And no, I don’t think it would be legal. Only Congress can regulate interstate commerce and in the past, the courts have held a really really broad definition of interstate commerce. (That’s actually how segregation at restaurants was declared illegal I think!)

[Smee]

Thanks for that, I forget how much bigger (geographically, not population wise) our states are. To get from Sydney to Melbourne is an 8-9hr drive not including rest stops and much of the border follows a river so there’s only a few places where police needed road blocks.

[louisa05]

On 12/1/2020 at 4:53 PM, baldricks_turnip said:

Its always interesting to me how differently we've all experienced this pandemic. I live in Victoria, Australia. We had a second wave that peaked at 700 new cases a day and we had a total lockdown for 112 days. During that time I wasn't allowed more than 5 kilometres (3 miles) from my home, was only allowed to leave the home for one of 4 reasons (1 hour of exercise a day, 1 adult shopping for essential items, seeking medical attention or being an essential worker). You had to have a permit to travel beyond your 5km radius. Absolutely no visitors whatsoever. And throughout all this, all the other states had their borders closed to us (and for the most part, each other). We are now at one month without any new cases (and no active cases at all) and some of the borders are still closed to us!

I always thought the US were even more militant about states rights than we are here, but I guess not.

How did this work for agriculture and rural areas? Or is that an issue? I know a lot of people who do not live within 3 miles of any essential services including grocery stores.  Then there is the issue is farming. A cousin of mine (who should know better) was screaming bloody murder because we didn’t have a hard lockdown/ stay at home order in the spring. My question at the time was how would that work for farmers during planting and fertilizer season? They have to go to get equipment and supplies. My husband works in an agricultural related business. They were given a letter to carry stating they were essential workers as it was apparently required for being out in some states with hard lockdowns that the company has plants and retail in. Who gives that letter to independent farmers? There’s no mechanism for that.

Then I saw in the spring a bunch of fuss that cell phone data showed more travel in “red” midwestern states so obviously we were all stupid. But, again, there was more travel because of essential business related to agriculture (somewhere between 25 and 29% of workforce here) and so many people have to travel for essential goods and services. My mother’s home county doesn’t have a single full service grocery store or a single pharmacy in the entire county. People have to travel 25-35 miles for most things depending on where they are. A friend of mine lives nearly 40 miles from full grocery store, pharmacy, etc.... Most of Mr 05’s extended family is 20 miles from any grocery store at all. So, yes,  people travel more here all the time. Not to disregard Covid or the environment or whatever, but out of necessity. My state can’t have a lockdown that orders everyone to stay within 3 miles of home. 
This stuff is all more complex than people want to believe. 

[Not that josh's mom]

We live 5+ miles from a grocery store or pharmacy. Its 15 miles to a doctor or hospital. 45 miles to any "major" shopping, like Walmart or target. We havent been further than the doctor since January. No curb side shopping available locally so my husband does go to the grocery store. If we are limited to 3 miles, we are going to be eating convenience store food, no medical services or medicine. 

[church_of_dog]

@louisa05 as I understand that cell phone analysis, it didn't reflect well in rural areas because it was actually measuring the CHANGE in miles travelled from before the lockdown to after.

And in rural areas nearly all travel is essential travel.

If you are feeding cows every day in a field five miles from home, you are going to keep doing that in a lockdown, partly because the animals need to eat, but also because it's a one- or two-person activity that doesn't involve group interaction.

Same with driving miles to grocery, hardware, etc stores.  Maybe they do or don't chat with others for as long a time as they used to while there, but town is still as far away as it is, and groceries, hardware and mail will always provide "essential" excuses to go.

Also I venture to say that ranchers and other agricultural workers are less likely to have smartphones than your typical urbanite.  Lots and lots of flip phones around here!  Many ranching folks are reluctant adopters at best.  I don't know if fliphones have the right functions to be included in that tracking.

[sansan]

On 11/30/2020 at 4:30 AM, xenobia said:

I think he's been living in Texas for quite a while now. 

And about filming the wedding: Do y'all seriously think that Ma Spivey would let her daughter marry into the Duggar family without being on TV? Of course not. 

I noticed, I think, that he was not at the Family Fall Festival thing they filmed. They had several events outside and a hayride at the end. You would think if they were there that it would be made a huge thing to show the newly engaged couple. I think he will do much better in Texas, away from Jim Bob’s daily influences.

[louisa05]

9 minutes ago, church_of_dog said:

@louisa05 as I understand that cell phone analysis, it didn't reflect well in rural areas because it was actually measuring the CHANGE in miles travelled from before the lockdown to after.

And in rural areas nearly all travel is essential travel.

If you are feeding cows every day in a field five miles from home, you are going to keep doing that in a lockdown, partly because the animals need to eat, but also because it's a one- or two-person activity that doesn't involve group interaction.

Same with driving miles to grocery, hardware, etc stores.  Maybe they do or don't chat with others for as long a time as they used to while there, but town is still as far away as it is, and groceries, hardware and mail will always provide "essential" excuses to go.

Also I venture to say that ranchers and other agricultural workers are less likely to have smartphones than your typical urbanite.  Lots and lots of flip phones around here!  Many ranching folks are reluctant adopters at best.  I don't know if fliphones have the right functions to be included in that tracking.

Most of my rural friends have smartphones as broadband internet isn’t available 

[church_of_dog]

6 minutes ago, louisa05 said:

Most of my rural friends have smartphones as broadband internet isn’t available 

Yes, I recognize that many rural folks do.  I was merely speculating that the overall percentage of rural/agricultural folks with smartphones is lower than in other subcommunities.  Maybe it's just in my area.  Ranching demographic skews older, too (again, at least in my area) and that could also have something to do with it.

[lexiloumarie]

On 12/2/2020 at 8:12 AM, OHFL2009 said:

I would've starved to death; there's no grocery store within 3 miles of my house ?

Although there is a cattle field at the end of my street, so I guess if we got hungry enough, we could figure out how to get some beef. 

Same! I've got a dollar general at about 8 miles now but otherwise nada. 

[CarrotCake]

And here I am in a country that we can’t even close off because of the commute to other countries ?

Although they partly closed in spring but so many people could still cross (commute, caring for elderly relatives, trucks etc.)

[baldricks_turnip]

2 hours ago, louisa05 said:

How did this work for agriculture and rural areas? Or is that an issue? I know a lot of people who do not live within 3 miles of any essential services including grocery stores.  Then there is the issue is farming. A cousin of mine (who should know better) was screaming bloody murder because we didn’t have a hard lockdown/ stay at home order in the spring. My question at the time was how would that work for farmers during planting and fertilizer season? They have to go to get equipment and supplies. My husband works in an agricultural related business. They were given a letter to carry stating they were essential workers as it was apparently required for being out in some states with hard lockdowns that the company has plants and retail in. Who gives that letter to independent farmers? There’s no mechanism for that.

 

If your essentials (and supermarkets, butchers, bakers, green grocers, petrol stations, medical centres and pharmacies were basically the only things allowed to be open) were outside your 5 km you were permitted to travel to them. But police were allowed to pull anyone over at any time, check their address and have them justify your reason to be out of home. You couldn't go outside your 5 km to go to Aldi because you prefer it to Woolworths. I believe the fine was about $1700. The fine for having visitors was $5000. My suburb was considered high risk for illegal gatherings and there were patrolling helicopters almost nightly.

Now that we are out the other side of this I have very mixed feelings about it. There are many people who were either pro and anti lockdown who now see it as the ends justify the means, especially with the state of things in the northern hemisphere. I feel bad for all of you who are desperately trying to do the right thing to keep yourself and others safe but live somewhere with a lack of leadership to make others also act safely and therefore cases are surging and you can't possibly move beyond this. But I feel like our constitution should be amended to never allow such government powers again. It shouldn't be possible to place 6 million innocent people under house arrest for 4 months, or illegal to see a friend or family member.

[Karma]

3 hours ago, louisa05 said:

How did this work for agriculture and rural areas?

Not a Victorian, so not an expert,  but rules were different for metropolitan Melbourne and rural/regional Victoria.  Metropolitan Melbourne, where most of the state’s population live, and where case numbers were much higher, was surrounded by a “ring of steel” - police blocks to prevent people who didn’t need to travel to regional/rural Victoria for essential reasons, from entering and potentially  spreading the virus.  A Victorian might correct me, but I don’t think residents outside of metropolitan Melbourne were subject to the same restrictions, including the 5km rule.

[BlessingsVonFundiePants]

Also an Australian here. Good citizenship was also a huge part of the response. Metropolitan people made a huge personal sacrifices, but they did it to protect their rural and remote fellow citizens, who don’t have access to the same sized hospitals. They did it to protect their family members and friends who work in our taxpayer funded healthcare systems. It wasn’t perfect, but for the most part we all followed the rules because it was the honourable thing to do for each other. 

[louisa05]

48 minutes ago, Karma said:

Not a Victorian, so not an expert,  but rules were different for metropolitan Melbourne and rural/regional Victoria.  Metropolitan Melbourne, where most of the state’s population live, and where case numbers were much higher, was surrounded by a “ring of steel” - police blocks to prevent people who didn’t need to travel to regional/rural Victoria for essential reasons, from entering and potentially  spreading the virus.  A Victorian might correct me, but I don’t think residents outside of metropolitan Melbourne were subject to the same restrictions, including the 5km rule.

Early on, before he decided to abandon responsibility, our governor was determining health restrictions on a county by county basis. This made a ton more sense to me as metro areas at the time had rising cases and many rural counties had none (some never had any until the fall surges).  It also made sense to me because if lockdowns/stay at home orders were necessary, extremely rural areas had different needs than cities and larger towns. But there was terrible pushback that everything had to be statewide including from national media. The result was our asshat governor apparently wanting to say FU to all the critics by moving to a policy of barely responding to the situation and lifting most measures and not reinstating them this fall as cases have surged. 

[Mimosa]

I find the way they did lockdown in Australia interesting. When the lockdown first hit, I lived in a really small town with 1 really small grocery store. The town was full of elderly people and a lot of people went from going out of town to shop to shopping in town. As such, the grocery store had a hard time keeping up with demand and was out of things pretty often (beyond what other places were experiencing). So, I kept going to the larger city an hour and a half away to do my shopping. I could get everything I needed (or a reasonable substitute) in one shopping trip so I figured for contact tracing purposes, it made more sense to drive the hour and a half once every two weeks and then not go out at all the rest of the time than go to the store right beside my house but having to go back at least 4 times in that span.  

[louisa05]

1 hour ago, Mimosa said:

I find the way they did lockdown in Australia interesting. When the lockdown first hit, I lived in a really small town with 1 really small grocery store. The town was full of elderly people and a lot of people went from going out of town to shop to shopping in town. As such, the grocery store had a hard time keeping up with demand and was out of things pretty often (beyond what other places were experiencing). So, I kept going to the larger city an hour and a half away to do my shopping. I could get everything I needed (or a reasonable substitute) in one shopping trip so I figured for contact tracing purposes, it made more sense to drive the hour and a half once every two weeks and then not go out at all the rest of the time than go to the store right beside my house but having to go back at least 4 times in that span.  

Early on our grocery store in our small town (9000) was running out of stuff. I started getting our groceries in the city where my mom lives when I got hers.  
 

Many small towns here are well under a 1000. The town my husband’s grandmother and some of his aunts and uncles live in or around is under 100.  They have no grocery store. Not even a gas station.  They have a farmers co-op and a Catholic Church and houses for around 60 people. 

[Mama Mia]

5 hours ago, louisa05 said:

Early on, before he decided to abandon responsibility, our governor was determining health restrictions on a county by county basis. This made a ton more sense to me as metro areas at the time had rising cases and many rural counties had none (some never had any until the fall surges).  It also made sense to me because if lockdowns/stay at home orders were necessary, extremely rural areas had different needs than cities and larger towns. But there was terrible pushback that everything had to be statewide including from national media. The result was our asshat governor apparently wanting to say FU to all the critics by moving to a policy of barely responding to the situation and lifting most measures and not reinstating them this fall as cases have surged. 

That’s interesting. My state is huge, both in population and geography, and mostly has tried to do things on a county by county or region by region basis. The range in population of a county ranges from under 10 thousand in a huge expanse to over 10 million in a tiny area. The problem I had with the county level restrictions is that we were (in the beginning)  a relatively low case count area, with beaches, surrounded by counties with much higher counts and more restrictions. So people would come here to go to the beach or shop or whatever and spread the virus. The County health office tried to deal with it by making restrictions like limiting beach access to certain hours that would be inconvenient if traveling, closing beach parking lots etc...but mostly that just made EVERYONE mad.

[SassyPants]

12 minutes ago, Mama Mia said:

That’s interesting. My state is huge, both in population and geography, and mostly has tried to do things on a county by county or region by region basis. The range in population of a county ranges from under 10 thousand in a huge expanse to over 10 million in a tiny area. The problem I had with the county level restrictions is that we were (in the beginning)  a relatively low case count area, with beaches, surrounded by counties with much higher counts and more restrictions. So people would come here to go to the beach or shop or whatever and spread the virus. The County health office tried to deal with it by making restrictions like limiting beach access to certain hours that would be inconvenient if traveling, closing beach parking lots etc...but mostly that just made EVERYONE mad.

I’m in a beach community and luckily I can walk steps to the nearest beach, but I can attest to how angry so many in the community were when beach hours were restricted. Also, when water sports were allowed but sitting on the beach was not. TBH, I have not been to the beach in a year. I can walk along the cliff and see it, and that’s enough for me.

[HeartsAFundie]

11 hours ago, SassyPants said:

I’m in a beach community and luckily I can walk steps to the nearest beach, but I can attest to how angry so many in the community were when beach hours were restricted. Also, when water sports were allowed but sitting on the beach was not. TBH, I have not been to the beach in a year. I can walk along the cliff and see it, and that’s enough for me.

When the pandemic first started, the Rhode Island beaches had signs up highly discouraging Massachusetts residents from visiting, with warnings that any vehicle with Massachusetts license plates found parked on the beach would be subject to fines. And that was during the spring when it was too cold to swim and people just wanted to walk on the beach and sit on the sand.   It caused a lot of animosity between the border towns where MA residents were used to driving right over the border at any given moment to the beach.