The Worst Thing About Lina

[pomology]

Just out of curiousity, what is your opinion of the "Christian seder?"

http://www.sheepgate.com/tracts/christianseder.pdf

Basically, it is similar to a Jewish seder for Passover except there is emphasis on Jesus' Last Supper.

I don't know if this is popular amongst Protestant Christians, but is growing in popularity among some of the more modern Catholic parishes. For Catholics, since the Eucharist (Body and Blood of Christ under the appearance of bread and wine) was instituted during the Last Supper, it is an important rememberance and the beginning of our Holy Triduum (Holy Thursday, Good Friday, Easter)

I actually went to one when I was in college. It had the wine, the bitter herbs, singing of Hebrew songs (Dayenu ???). It was an odd experience eating matzah and bitter herbs then going to Holy Thursday Mass.

Edited to add: Full disclosure...I did not care for this ceremony and have not attended one since.

I don't have problems with Christians studying the seder and even having a seder, because I do understand the importance of the Last Supper and it having been a seder and whatnot. I am not as closed minded as our esteemed guest claims. :roll: The seder is obviously an aspect of Judaism that we continue today that Jesus practice. :)

As for the specific seder you posted... it smacks of cultural appropriation and a lack of respect for the Jews. I have no idea if all Christian seders are like this, but this one really, really bothers me. I can give you more details as to why, if you're curious (don't want to bore you with the details if you don't care ;) ) but I probably need to sleep first.

[lizzy]

Pomology, thank you for your opinion. You can post your reasons if you'd like.

Personally, I do not like these sorts of celebrations. Catholicism has plenty of beautiful traditions surrounding Holy Week, that I do not think this adds to the celebration of the institution of the Blessed Sacrament or memorial of Christ's Passion. This is one of my gripes about the Catholic Church in the last 40 years. It is tried so hard to court Protestants and Jews for conversion that it has lost its own unique character and traditions in the process.

[emmiedahl]

About the Christian seder, I know Baptists who do it. I don't mind people trying Jewish 'stuff', and of course they will get some of it wrong. There is a lot of shared heritage between Christianity and Judaism, so I am a little surprised that so many Christians have no interest whatsoever. No bfd though. I do have a problem with outright cultural appropriation, especially if it comes with the sense that the appropriator is doing it so much better.

There is a fine line. Like, I can wear a sari, but I am not going to walk around throwing Hindi phrases into everyday converation and I certainly am not going to write a blog about how all Indian women are getting the pleats wrong.

[FaustianSlip]

The Christian seder doesn't bother me, depending on how it's done. If it's done as a traditional, Jewish seder with accompanying discussion of its significance in a Christian context, that's cool. I know frum people from my own shul who have gone and helped run seders for area churches, and I don't think they're doing anything but a typical seder. If you're trying to alter the content of the seder, doing the Messianic thing where suddenly the middle matzah represents Jesus' broken body or whatever, to me that crosses the line from education into cultural appropriation.

We actually had a girl attend our seder last year at Pesach for educational purposes. She was... Presby, I think? Anyway, I'm not sure if she was considering conversion, and obviously none of us told her she should, but she said she'd always grown up hearing about how Jesus was Jewish and didn't really know much about it and wanted to check it out. It was cool- she was totally respectful and interested, asked a lot of good questions, and the friends hosting the seder are great at helping out Jewish n00bs. I think that's totally fine, appropriate and a positive thing, so long as someone's not entering that situation with the intention of preaching to anyone or anything.

[defrauding]

Just out of curiousity, what is your opinion of the "Christian seder?"

http://www.sheepgate.com/tracts/christianseder.pdf

That one's shitty even by Christian standards. The higher-quality guides I've seen preserve most elements of a traditional Jewish seder, even as they try to shove Jesus into every nook and cranny. This one, though, treats the structure of the seder as a loose outline, and the authors make things up as they go. Take the "four children" section, for example:

The Wise Son asks, "What are the traditions that help me become all God created me to be?"

The Worldly Son asks, as an outside observer, "What does this mean to all you religious people?"

The Fearful Son asks, "What is the easiest way to avoid God’s punishment?"

The Foolish Son doesn’t even care enough to ask a question.

Compare those with the actual questions, taken from NJOP:

The Wise Child asks "What are the commandments which G-d has ordained for us?"

The Rebellious Child asks "What does this service mean to you?"

The Simple Child asks for the meaning of the Seder.

The One Who Does Not Know How To Ask must also be addressed.

There are also completely foreign elements like the "seven gems of wisdom" that the daughters recite -- oh, yeah, and sections that invite Steve Maxwell types to suck all the fun out of the seder. ("At this time, guests, parents and grandparents are invited to share stories of family and parish history, and the importance of Church to our ancestors.")

[PennySycamore]

The Catholic Center at the University of Georgia used to hold a Seder on Holy Thursday followed by the Holy Thursday Mass. The Seder was presided over by a Jewish family from Athens. The recipes for the ritual foods were authentic as was the order of the Seder service. I helped with the cooking of the dinner a couple of years and was in charge of the ritual food one of those years. The Haggadah used was not some Christianized bastardization.

I did go to a Seder once held at Mr Sycamore's old church that was a was a Christianized Seder. I found it offensive and lacking the beauty of the ones we celebrated in college. I never went to another Xtian one.

[Jewess]

What I find amusing is when Christians, trying to "keep what Jesus kept" take on Jewish practices that were from the past 500 or 1000 years. As an Ortho Jew, I'll totally admit that Judaism is an evolving religion, and that many things we do today are very different to how they lived in biblical days or even talmudic days. Like if a Christian would want to "be Jewish like Jesus" and therefore start wearing Hasidic garb that was adopted in the 1800s or so, it would be friggin hillarious.

The apple and honey thing is one of those stuff. Its not mentioned in the Torah. Its not mentioned in the gemara or mishna. Its just even a jewish law or an old old Jewish custom. Its just been adopted in the past few hundred years as far as I know.

As for a Christian seder, well while I get why a Christian might want to have a seder, its strictly a Jewish thing, to commemorate what special thing God did for the Jewish people, the start of being His chosen nation (for good and for bad) and it is the basis of our belief system, which is why we talk about the exodus from egypt at least twice a day in the Shma, and it is brought up in every prayer and liturgy, and the seder night is the day we pass on this faith to our children. According to Ortho Jewish law, non Jews aren't even allowed to come to the seder, as this is something strictly between us and God, to commemorate something He did specifically for us. But anyhow, thats besides the point.

But what I think is amusing is- if you want to do a seder, do it how Jesus did it. That means make a roasted lamb. Have soft matzas like they used to have (like a pita, just with no pocket), not the standard Ashkenazi cracker matza that was adopted in the last few hundred years. Have your traditional bitter herb- chicory or lettuce, not horseradish which again, the Ashkenazi Jews adopted in the past few hundred years because of lack of availability in eastern europe.

And singing Dayenu? Jesus surely didn't sing that!!!

I find it amusing when Christians wanting to emulate Jesus do Ashkenazic customs that were adopted way past the time that Jesus died.

[skankbiscuit]

I just wanted to add that I hope she gets help for her mental illness, but I think TT would just tell her to pray more.

[Dinorah]

I attended a seder once, which was targeted at the Protestant and Catholic parishes in my area and lead by a rabbi. The underlying idea was to do something that was Jewish but was relevant to Christians as well. But it was the standard Jewish protocol, Jesus hardly got mentioned.

[formergothardite]

Just for a Minute found this thread about her super duper fast didn't she?! And then she flounced just as quickly. And what was the thing about are Christians able to say Judiasm all about? I don't get it.

[samithemage]

My roommate used to nanny for a Jewish family and I have babysat for them several times. For the past several years, we've been invited to their Passover celebrations. They are reform (I believe) and considered it a mitzvah to invite us. We were both raise Catholic, and I still am vaguely Catholic though not particularly practicing, and my roommate is protestant of some sort. Every time I've been to Passover with this family, it has been a beautiful experience. However, I knew it would never be as meaningful to me as it was to them. I just don't have to proper cultural and religious background. It never crossed my mind to try to appropriate the celebration as my own, and make it all about Jesus and whatnot. I would never attempt to participate or recreate a Jewish (or Muslim, or Shinto, or Wiccan, etc) ceremony that was not a part of my cultural and religious tradition or beliefs, unless I had been specifically invited. Cultural and religious traditions are incredibly important. Even though I'm not a practicing Catholic at the moment, I would be deeply offended if a non-believer came to mass and took communion. There are specific rules against that, and I would want to see them observed. You can't just declare yourself a part of a religion, while you believe things that are directly opposed to the doctrine of that religion and expect for that religious community to accept you. For better or worse, each religious community gets to decide what the criteria are for membership, and if you want to be a true member, then you need to follow those criteria.

[pomology]

Pomology, thank you for your opinion. You can post your reasons if you'd like.

Personally, I do not like these sorts of celebrations. Catholicism has plenty of beautiful traditions surrounding Holy Week, that I do not think this adds to the celebration of the institution of the Blessed Sacrament or memorial of Christ's Passion. This is one of my gripes about the Catholic Church in the last 40 years. It is tried so hard to court Protestants and Jews for conversion that it has lost its own unique character and traditions in the process.

I might post my reasons at some point. Assuming I have time in the near enough future for anybody to care.

Also, I wanted to say that I went to mass this summer with my Catholic co-intern and I thought it was really beautiful. I feel like I probably have a lot of problems with Catholicism, but I also have a lot of respect for it and its long history and traditions.

[lizzy]

I might post my reasons at some point. Assuming I have time in the near enough future for anybody to care.

Also, I wanted to say that I went to mass this summer with my Catholic co-intern and I thought it was really beautiful. I feel like I probably have a lot of problems with Catholicism, but I also have a lot of respect for it and its long history and traditions.

Did you go to the old Latin Mass or the new Mass in English?

[FaustianSlip]

Not Pomology, but I'd love to go to a Latin Mass. I've been to Mass in English before (and honestly, it's so similar to the Episcopal Mass as to be nearly indistinguishable, at least in the case of the ones I've attended), but never the Latin, and as a former Latin student and language geek, and someone who values having a language set aside for prayer (in my case Hebrew), I think it would be a great experience. There are a number of elements of the Traditional movement, though, at least based on some of the things I've seen and read on places like Fisheaters, as regards Jews and Judaism, that I'd be a little uncomfortable attending. Maybe if I ever ran across a diocesan Latin Mass, I could give it a whirl.

[lizzy]

Not Pomology, but I'd love to go to a Latin Mass. I've been to Mass in English before (and honestly, it's so similar to the Episcopal Mass as to be nearly indistinguishable, at least in the case of the ones I've attended), but never the Latin, and as a former Latin student and language geek, and someone who values having a language set aside for prayer (in my case Hebrew), I think it would be a great experience. There are a number of elements of the Traditional movement, though, at least based on some of the things I've seen and read on places like Fisheaters, as regards Jews and Judaism, that I'd be a little uncomfortable attending. Maybe if I ever ran across a diocesan Latin Mass, I could give it a whirl.

I've been going to Latin Masses exclusively for over 10 years. In my experience, I have never heard a sermon about the Jews, so I think you are pretty safe in that respect. Furthermore, the only time Jews are mentioned in the liturgy is on Good Friday during the petitions. Yes, Catholics pray for the conversion of Jews during this time (protestants, pagans, and atheists, too), but seeing as how we believe Jesus is the Jewish Messiah, that is not out of character. The word, perfidious, with regard to Jews was removed from the liturgy several years ago.

I lurk on Fisheaters occasionally, so I can completely understand your feelings toward the people there. Truthfully, I share most of them. However, they represent a very small minority of Latin Mass goers who happen to be just really vocal on the internet. Odds are if you go to a Latin Mass, you won't even know they are there.

If you are ever interested in going, let me know and I'll pm you a list of "safe" Masses.

[emmiedahl]

I go mass a bit with my husband I kinda like it. It's too bad they have to mix all the Jesus/trinity junk in there. :) Latin Masses are becoming common; our local church used to be Spanish/English only, then they did Latin mass once a month, and now it is a weekly thing. It makes sense in an area like mine, where half of the churchgoers speak another language.

[Evie Teale]

I was reading this yesterday, but didn't get a chance to reply.

I don't know if this has been discussed before, but I think the apple lady from the original post may be a user of this particular homeschool item:

heartofwisdom.com/biblicalholidays/2011/10/03/a-family-guide-to-the-biblical-holidays/

This "unit study" is a gateway for a lot of homeschool moms into the whole fake Jewish culture. Of course, once mom is on board, the whole family soon will be. It is very popular with the homeschoolers I knew in the very conservative state where I used to live.

I find it distasteful. If my understanding is correct, these are not just "holidays." These are feasts that are required for the Jewish people. To add your own meaning to them and play-act seems offensive to both Jewish and Christian alike.

Just my opinion.

[treemom]

As I said before, Lina and TT bother me because they're all "Look at us. We are practicing Judaism. We believe in Jesus and are not from Jewish families but we are still Jewish. We are willing to be deceitful and manipulative in order to be accepted into the Jewish community. We are sooooooooo Jewish. We are sooooooo special. All Jews and Christians in the world throughout the history of time have been wrong, and we are right. We must show them how right we are."

I would feel different if Lina and TT had been "We are Christians but we know Jesus was Jewish so we have decided to study Judaism and maybe incorporate some of the findings into our personal lives. We do not claim to be Jewish or have the mistaken belief that doing these things make us Jewish. We respect the Jewish community and their faith. This is a personal, spiritual matter that we might bring up from time to time. This is not for everybody but it feels right for us."

But what they are doing is not the latter. It's the former. And that's what I hate.

Let them eat cake. I probably am just dense but I have to say I think that is the best explanation of what is wrong with Lina and other fake jews. I have always defended the concept from a high level (not defended Lina because she is a whackjob)

But I think what I was always defending was the concept of your second part. Understanding the differences between the two put choosing to feel like X is their personal faith.

So thanks!