Zach & Whitney Bates Part 6: That Thing In The Window Is Creepy

[fluffernutter]

Yeah the Whitney/parents thing is a mystery. It looks like she was either taken out of or left her birth parent's home as an older child? Tween? and adopted by another family? That was the (probably incorrect) info I got doing a google search. 

[SamiKatz]

Maybe she voted Democrat!

[mollysmom]

I'm estranged from my parents because I left their fundie church and lifestyle (and never looked back) They took it very personal. It's just funny to me because if you talk to me, you get one story, if you talk to them, completely different story of course! (not saying that's what happened with Whitney....just sharing a little bit of my story) 

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, fluffernutter said:

Yeah the Whitney/parents thing is a mystery. It looks like she was either taken out of or left her birth parent's home as an older child? Tween? and adopted by another family? That was the (probably incorrect) info I got doing a google search. 

What we know is:

- Her birth parents are alive

- She ended up living with the Owens family in her late teens

- Her adoptive family was present at her wedding, but not her birth parents

- Her birth parents were back in the picture by the time Bradley was born, but the Owens family was out of the picture

- Whit apparently carries a lot of guilt due to whatever led to the rift

None of the people involved have spoken publicly about what actually happened other than Whitney and she’s mostly been pretty vague about it all. I’m feeling a bit torn - I do think Whitney has the right to discuss things (or not) in however vague terms as she wants. On the other hand, I think she’s definitely opening herself up to prying questions and comments about the situation. I hope that the decision to discuss the rift at all was her own and that she’s prepared to deal with those comments and questions. 

[mstee]

I hope that behind the scenes her parents have taken some responsibility for it all. It’s not fair for Whitney to carry all the guilt of whatever happened when she was a child/teen. 

I wonder if Whitney is pregnant again and they are just using the last announcement to cover a current pregnancy. 

[TeaELSee]

This show must have really got under my skin, I keep thinking about things that bothered me.

Did anyone else feel like her Mom seemed flat or like she didn’t care? The emphasis was on the Dad and her Mom appeared to just be there. Of course she could just be camera shy, but even in background shots she didn’t appear like a mom at her daughters wedding.

I am responding solely by memory so I could have misread it, I was curious if anyone else felt that way.

[mstee]

@TeaELSee yes, my thoughts exactly! I remember Whitney saying to her mom that they should’ve brought tissues for all the tears and her mom didn’t reply at all. Super flat affect in general. 

[scoutsadie]

59 minutes ago, mstee said:

@TeaELSee yes, my thoughts exactly! I remember Whitney saying to her mom that they should’ve brought tissues for all the tears and her mom didn’t reply at all. Super flat affect in general. 

I wonder if it might just be discomfort being on camera, or discomfort in showing a lot of emotion on camera. I say this not trying to defend or excuse anyone, just from a personal sense that I would come off as a total self-conscious dork on camera. (And for that reason, I can't imagine ever wanting to be on camera...and maybe they didn't really want to be, either, but wanted to be a part of their recently-reunited daughter's vow renewal - ? Just a thought.)

[marmalade]

On 1/3/2019 at 12:20 PM, Audrey2 said:

It's also possible that one or more are expecting but they aren't ready to announce yet. It seems like they typically wait until they are 3 months along or more.

Whitney made her announcement at around 6 weeks. After the announcement, she was surrounded by Bates girls, one of whom asked how long she knew [that she was pregnant]. Whitney answered, "A couple weeks." 

 I think the Bateses tend to announce super EARLY (with the exception of Alyssa's plotted out announcements). This refers to their family, not the public. The public never knew of Whitney's pregnancy until long after she had the miscarriage. 

[JordynDarby5]

I loved Whitney's dress but the rest of it? It was hard to watch her going on and on about forgiveness and blaming herself and crying. It would have been nice to know what happened. I agree with others that I'm not sure I believe whatever it happened was all Whitney's fault. I still side eye her parents, Gothard stance on bio parents, and Kelly. It was very fast how quickly the birth parents were back and the adoptive parents were out. I do think it is kind of crappy for Whitney to talk about it but not really explain what happened. I have always wanted to know but she never said anything which is her choice. But now she brings it up on her own and still doesn't really explain what happened. The more she kept blaming herself and not saying why the more I was thinking the parents were at fault. What happened that was all her fault? Why is there no fault from the parents? We didn't even get one or both parents remarking that it was a tough time or something. Maybe we should have handled it better. Its hard to have a teen who's getting into trouble and making bad decisions etc. Why were the adoptive parents so suddenly cut out? If she wanted to end speculation all she had to do was write or say something quick thanking the family that took her in while she was having a hard time and thanks for everything. 

The thing I kept thinking about is how when most was what ever happen usually in church circles and maybe fundie circles. And maybe those who know both worlds better. If whatever happened was really Whitney's fault why wouldn't she say what it was and have it be part of her whole redemption story or I was a bad or lost teen who was horrible to my parents, did this or that, left home, but then found Jesus which eventually brought me back to my parents? If she sassed her parents, stole, whatever that it would be part of her turning her life around story? Is it normal for people not to give details or more of an idea of what happened with those stories? 

[JillyO]

Caveat: Maybe the Owenses (the adoptive parents) are actually terrible, horrible people.

I will say that the fact that Whitney seemingly cut all contact with her adoptive parents at the exact same time she miraculously reunited with her biological parents seems pretty fishy to me, especially now that they are putting 100% of the blame for their estrangement squarely on Whitney’s shoulders. If it had truly been a case of a “teenager gone wild” where she just needed to get away from her bio family for a while and the Owenses took her in, then there would be no reason to (again, seemingly) cut all contact with them after she reconciled with the Perkinses. If anything, most bio parents in a situation like that would be grateful that she found a loving family who took her in and got her on a good path (by the time she met Zach, she was - what, 19? - and was in college and had a job!). 

Again, I of course know nothing about the Owenses and maybe they really weren’t good to her at all. But this “reconcile with the biological parents and completely cut the adoptive parents out of your life from one day to the next” thing just reeks of Gothard’s anti-adoption bullshit. And like many of you, the fact that aaaallll of the blame for the broken relationship between Whitney and the Perkinses is put on Whitney REALLY rubs me the wrong way. Yuck. 

[Johannah]

It is no small feat to be legally adopted or to be granted legal emancipation. If she had been emancipated, then no legal adoption would have been necessary, so I’m guessing that wasn’t the case. 

To have custody taken away from parents and be available for legal adoption would require serious and substantive allegations against the parents of the nature of abuse or neglect. Maybe there’s something I’m missing here, but from what we’ve been told it seems like legal custody was taken away from her parents, in which case, any “blame” assigned to her is the equivalent of blaming a child for their own abuse.

It doesn’t make any sense. No matter how “bad” a teenager Whitney was, no court would legally remove rights from her parents. It seems like Whitney is now being gothard-brainwashed into believing that she should honor her parents in all circumstances, and therefore any abuse that occurred is her own fault and requires repentance/reconciliation.

This isn’t a case of a runaway wayward teen living with another family for awhile. She was legally adopted by them!!

[JillyO]

10 minutes ago, Johannah said:

It is no small feat to be legally adopted or to be granted legal emancipation. If she had been emancipated, then no legal adoption would have been necessary, so I’m guessing that wasn’t the case. 

To have custody taken away from parents and be available for legal adoption would require serious and substantive allegations against the parents of the nature of abuse or neglect. Maybe there’s something I’m missing here, but from what we’ve been told it seems like legal custody was taken away from her parents, in which case, any “blame” assigned to her is the equivalent of blaming a child for their own abuse.

It doesn’t make any sense. No matter how “bad” a teenager Whitney was, no court would legally remove rights from her parents. It seems like Whitney is now being gothard-brainwashed into believing that she should honor her parents in all circumstances, and therefore any abuse that occurred is her own fault and requires repentance/reconciliation.

This isn’t a case of a runaway wayward teen living with another family for awhile. She was legally adopted by them!!

We really don’t know whether Whitney was legally adopted at all. She referred to the Owenses as her adoptive parents, but AFAIK (and I’m pretty interested in this topic, so I don’t think I missed anything) we have no idea if she was ever legally adopted or if it was a more informal arrangement. 

[Johannah]

This is from kelly’s blog about their courtship. Seems pretty strange to go so far as to change her last name and for Kelly to report that she is adopted, but you’re right, we don’t know if it was actually legal or not. 

Whitney also just does not seem like the type of person who was a “troubled teen.” She appears to be super conformist and conventional. But there’s obviously no way to know based solely on what we see of her. 

https://thebatesfamily.com/2013/07/courtship-chronicle/

[Flossie]

I know less than most here about the situation, but here's how I always thought it went down:

Sometime in Whitney's early or mid teens, her life at home got to be too much.  I'd heard it was due to poverty, drugs and/or alcohol abuse by the parents, and a highly disruptive home life.  One time I heard that Whitney experienced violence at the hands of one or both of her parents.  But now I can't find anything about that online and I don't know where I heard that.  Anyway, Whitney either left on her own or was removed, and her parents either couldn't get her back or didn't try.  She ended up with the people she used to call her adoptive family.  

Whitney completed school, started college, worked at a fast food restaurant, met and fell for Zach.  Kelly and Gil probably thought she was a nice enough girl, but she was too independent for their tastes, and the closer she and Zach got, the more worried Kelly and Gil got that Whit would lead Zach right out of the cult.  So in the lead up to the wedding, and after the honeymoon, Kelly spent more time with Whitney trying to talk her into conforming more to their ways.  Whit's adoptive parents might have shown their disapproval and at some point Kelly and Gil decided that they had to go.

Whit's birth parents were now known by people as the parents who somehow lost their daughter and speculation over what they did to deserve it proved embarrassing.  They were happy to help K&G put a wedge between Whitney and her second family.  In the meantime, for a while Whit went skirts only and seemed on her way to becoming fully absorbed by the cult.  While the birth parents and the elder Bates were successful in getting Whit to shun her adoptive family, Whit has somewhat backslid by going back to wearing pants and holding a job outside the home.

Now Whitney is doing what her in laws and her birth parents want.  She's publicly accepting the blame for the estrangement, and making a show of begging for forgiveness for what happened.  She's still working, but she's popping out kids at a decent pace and trying hard to make herself fit into the Bates collective.  Only time will tell if she chooses to put her kids in school one day, or stops the baby train at a reasonable number of kids.  But for now she's made her elders very happy by focusing on her guilt for perceived past sins, pretending her adoptive family never existed, and attempting to rewrite history by having a wedding renewal with her birth parents front and center.  K&G must be very proud to have Zach back more firmly in the fold, and her birth parents can say "See?  We didn't do anything wrong.  It was all Whitney's fault and if that other family hadn't have taken her in and filled her head with nonsense, she wouldn't have spent so many years shutting us out of her life."

[mstee]

@Flossie The info about the abuse came from a post on a website that had local gossip. A poster said that her parents had beaten Whitney very badly and that she left/was taken due to the beating. So we FJ always discussed that but obviously we don’t know true it is. Your scenario sounds plausible except for the fact that her adoptive dad was a pastor, so I have a hard time believing that Kelly and Gil wouldn’t approve of him or that he would have an issue with them. Who knows though. It makes me sad to see Whitney shoulder the burden of whatever took place. My adoptive parents and bio mom don’t get along and it was dumped on me during my teen years and into my early twenties until I told them I wouldn’t carry their anger and burden any longer. So I really just feel for Whitney. 

[HarleyQuinn]

^Yep, I remember that. It was a comment on a news article saying that Whitney's parents beat her, which really leaves a bad taste in my mouth if she's accepting the blame for it now.

 

[Melissa1977]

40 minutes ago, mstee said:

Your scenario sounds plausible except for the fact that her adoptive dad was a pastor, so I have a hard time believing that Kelly and Gil wouldn’t approve of him or that he would have an issue with them

(!) speculation:

I feel that the foster parents are less fundie than Bates (send kids to public school, girls working and purchasing real careers etc) and that both set of parents could have been uncomfortable with each other. I see Kelly and Gil extremely controlling and trying to avoid their influence in the young couple and their future children.

I think Kelly is very intelligent and she knew that Whitney was somehow hurt. She was really trying to fit in the Bates family and worked hard to be accepted. She was also very young and tender. I'm sure manipulation was easy.

On the other side, we have the bio parents. Maybe they left their bad behaviours and joined a fundie church. Kelly met them. They are willing to reconcile with her only daughter. 

Kelly begins to talk to Whit about guilt, family relationships, biblical values. Deeply and silently, the message is: if you want to be accepted, left your foster parents. She needs to fit, to be loved, to be important for someone, to have an extended family, to please Zach and his parents. She is a daughter who obviously loves (or needs) her bio parents no matter how bad they were. 

And now, speculation about the future. Frustration, resentment. Someday Whit will judge her past and Kelly won't be in a nice position. Whit plays a role but it's like her real personality wants another life (she plays fundie and SAHM but works etc). 

Edited January 5, 2019 by Melissa1977
Owens, Perkins...I got confused

[TeaELSee]

I googled Whitney Perkins Jacksboro because her parents live there. A now defunct site  Topix had a discussion about her situation in 2011. I have no idea if what was written is true but the same abuse mentioned above is alleged. I would love to see a cached version of this thread, it cuts off since it has been deleted. If this is against the rules delete it. I’m not trying to stir anything up, I just started poking around due to curiosity and to see if I could find out what everyone was talking about.

Here is what popped up.

Aug 10, 2011 · 13 posts · 7 authors

I heard Whitney Perkins lied to the DHS about her money being stolen. How could someone do that to the woman who cared enough about her when she was taken from her parents for the beating she ...

 

[singsingsing]

I could see them blaming Whitney for leaving home if her parents were physically violent toward her. I think that's totally plausible. We know that the Bateses advocate physical violence toward children and think that children disobeying their parents is a grievous sin. 

I hope that's not what actually happened, but the fact that they won't elaborate on what went down at all is weird, and the whole thing leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.

[JermajestyDuggar]

Back when we last talked about this I guessed that she was never formally adopted but went to live with the Owens family. I looked at their Instagram and it looks like they have kids in and out of their home a lot. Meaning they always have their kids’ friends over and kids staying with them that may have trouble at home. I’m guessing Whit has some sort of trouble at home and chose to live with the Owens family over her bio parents. Maybe that’s what caused the rift. And then when she decided to go back to her bio family, she cut off the Owens family because it hurt her parents for her to keep up a relationship with them. That’s my guess. I am not sure about abuse or neglect but I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s why she left. 

[formergothardite]

52 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

I could see them blaming Whitney for leaving home if her parents were physically violent toward her. I think that's totally plausible. We know that the Bateses advocate physical violence toward children and think that children disobeying their parents is a grievous sin. 

Yes. Underneath the "aw shucks" personality they put on, Gil and Kelly are not actually nice people. Placing all the blame on the child and absolving the parents is a very Gothard thing. Children should obey parents no matter what. Gothard is the one that even says if a child is sexually assaulted they should first try to figure out how they are to blame. This makes me think that despite the modern clothing and working part time Whitney has taken a lot of Gothard's more awful teachings to heart. 

[VelociRapture]

There appears to be a little confusion. @Johannah, Whitney’s birth parents are J.C. and Donna (I think her name is Donna) Perkins. Her “adoptive” parents are Johnny and Lydia Owens. The blog post you linked to lists Whitney's name as Whitney Perkins, not Owens. So it’s extremely likely that she did not change her last name to the adoptive family’s. 

And @JillyOis correct that we have no confirmation about what type of arrangement there was. It’s possible Whit was removed from the home by authorities and placed with the Owens family, but it’s equally as possible that Whit chose to live with the Owens family and her parents let her because they thought it might help or they were tired of arguing or they didn’t really care or any other number of reasons. 

I do find it a bit interesting that none of the Bateses follow the Owens family on Instagram, yet the Owenses appear to follow all the official Bates accounts (and, oddly enough, unofficial fan accounts too.) The earliest photo on their Instagram featuring Whitney was a 2014 post of a family photo from a 2012 Dollywood visit, when she would have been 18 (based off their clothing, I’d guess it was during the summer, but it could have been after she turned 19 in late September.) All the other early photos appear to be focused on their daughter, Laklee, who was killed in a car accident in 2002 when she was just 11. The last post featuring Whitney and Zach was a family photo from a wedding about two days after Whitney was due with Bradley, but I have no clue whether that was the day it was actually taken or not. That post was the last time any of the Bateses have appeared on the Owens’ account, so I would assume any rift with the adoptive parents happened around that time. 

[Laura2730]

I was on Wayback Machine and found these comment replies from Kelly on the family website- on the post about Zach and Whitney's courtship and wedding:

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

Spoiler

 

[TeaELSee]

14 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

There appears to be a little confusion. @Johannah, Whitney’s birth parents are J.C. and Donna (I think her name is Donna) Perkins. Her “adoptive” parents are Johnny and Lydia Owens. The blog post you linked to lists Whitney's name as Whitney Perkins, not Owens. So it’s extremely likely that she did not change her last name to the adoptive family’s. 

Her Mom is listed as Lynn Perkins.

16 minutes ago, Laura2730 said:

was on Wayback Machine and found these comment replies from Kelly on the family website- on the post about Zach and Whitney's courtship and wedding:

Can you look up the Topix thread I posted earlier? I have no idea how to do that.