JinJer and Felicity 43: No Homebirth, No Problem

[kmachete14]

On 9/14/2018 at 7:05 AM, QuiverDance said:

But mainline Christiamns and Catholics actually DO these things and have declining youth numbers. What am I misunderstanding  in your post? 

Well from my experience after going to Catholic high school & college, Catholic youth aren't leaving because of social justice but leaving because of the actual Catholic beliefs/ disgust with covering up pedophiles. They can address injustice while using birth control, supporting gay rights, and scoffing at bread turning into literal flesh. I guess these fundies really are selfish and ignorant enough that "helping others + a church with their wacko beliefs" is worse than just "a church with wacko beliefs"  . . .how awful. 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

Maybe they are trying to keep her from sucking her thumb?  I can't think of any other reason for having them on.  And I'm sure the Duggar way is to deny the child access to their hands. 

[eleanora3]

1 hour ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

Maybe they are trying to keep her from sucking her thumb?  I can't think of any other reason for having them on.  And I'm sure the Duggar way is to deny the child access to their hands. 

I think it's to prevent her from scratching her face.

[Shadoewolf]

In most cases yes, but then trim her nails or bite them off. Constant use of the mittens can have consequences after awhile.

[JillyO]

Here is said photo:

I also have to say - and I do not mean to re-start the flower headband discussion - I see absolutely no reason why you would put one of those things on your baby when you put her down to sleep. If you want to put a flower headband on your baby girl when you go to church, or take family pictures, or even just to go out to dinner, FINE. You do you. But at home? To sleep? I don't get it. I guess Felicity has to look Insta-ready at all times.

 

[Tatar-tot]

I will cut Jinger slack on all these things.  It is her first baby.  It’s a girl. Jinger is having a dandy time dressing her up mittens and all.    By kid number three the mittens will be lost in the filter in the dryer.  

[Chewing Gum]

1 hour ago, JillyO said:

Here is said photo:

I also have to say - and I do not mean to re-start the flower headband discussion - I see absolutely no reason why you would put one of those things on your baby when you put her down to sleep. If you want to put a flower headband on your baby girl when you go to church, or take family pictures, or even just to go out to dinner, FINE. You do you. But at home? To sleep? I don't get it. I guess Felicity has to look Insta-ready at all times.

 

Agreed! All I see is a choking hazard once she has those mittens off. Or maybe that’s why they’re on. She could easily put one of the flowers in her mouth and THEN WHAT? She’s supposed to be asleep so she’s not supervised. 

[Don'tlikekoolaid]

That’s why the mittens!  So poor little puddin’  doesn’t rip off the stupid headband.

[SassyPants]

The mittens are about controlling behaviors!

[VelociRapture]

Jinger had a buddy group just like Jessa and Jill did. This is her first time parenting her own child, but she does have experience caring for children. The mittens definitely aren’t the weirdest or most dangerous thing in the world, but I think Jinger (and Jeremy) should be held to a similar standard that her sisters (and their husbands) were when they became parents and I’m pretty sure that both Jill and Jessa were called out for stuff like this as well. I’m actually pretty sure that Jill was criticized a lot for the mittens too. 

As far as the headbands, we can’t really compare to Jill and Jessa since they have boys and boys obviously can’t wear headbands because people may think they’re girls (.) Other fundies have been previously criticized for headband use though. I’m thinking of the Bates moms specifically, but I don’t remember if any of them shared photos of their newborns sleeping with one on. Allowing her to wear the headband while sleeping is more concerning to me than the mittens to be honest simply because it is a choking hazard if it slips off or if Felicity pulls it off.

What really concerns me in that photo is the blanket though. Felicity is using a regular blanket for her nap in this photo as opposed to a sleep swaddle or a sleep sack. Current American Academy of Pediatrics recommendations* strongly urge parents to avoid using regular blankets in this way because it’s very easy for babies to suffocate while using them. If Jinger or Jeremy were right there supervising the whole time then it’s not really an issue because they’re right there to pull it off, but if not that can be a dangerous choice. 

And to end I’ll say one nice thing: Felicity is adorable.

ETA: And a second nice thing- Jinger was smart to disable the comments ahead of time. I have a feeling the comments wouldn’t have been fun for her to read, though some of them may have been educational for her to see.

*And yes, recommendations are only that and parents are free to make their own choices. I’ve been vocal about the blanket issue on the “Little People Big World” threads though and I feel consistency is important, so I wanted to point that out here too. 

[SamiKatz]

I probably wouldn't post photos of my kids to Instagram (publicly anyway), but after reading some of the comments made about Tori Spelling's children left on a photo of her kids, I would definitely disable comments on posts with my kids in them.  People are vicious, even about kids.  

[cascarones]

4 minutes ago, SamiKatz said:

I would definitely disable comments on posts with my kids in them.  People are vicious, even about kids.

I'm with you, I think safety concerns are valid (carseats, blankets, etc), but I do feel for the nitpicking that happens even with non celebrities. A photo of my niece went up and she was a bit red from running around and a pile on happened about scolding her mom about sunscreen usage. 

As someone who briefly found herself in the wrath focus of a tiny portion of reddit, the insults just get weird. Some people love to hate without any form of valid snark or semblance of BEC.

I personally think Felicity had just been put down into the crib, so the headband and blanket were only there under supervision, but that's a guess. Or it was a staged photo while she was asleep, but again, another guess. I'd rather see a staged crib photo than a naked sleeping baby shoved in a cornucopia or bucket, but some people do that too, just my personal taste.

[JesSky03]

14 minutes ago, cascarones said:

I'm with you, I think safety concerns are valid (carseats, blankets, etc), but I do feel for the nitpicking that happens even with non celebrities. A photo of my niece went up and she was a bit red from running around and a pile on happened about scolding her mom about sunscreen usage. 

As someone who briefly found herself in the wrath focus of a tiny portion of reddit, the insults just get weird. Some people love to hate without any form of valid snark or semblance of BEC.

I personally think Felicity had just been put down into the crib, so the headband and blanket were only there under supervision, but that's a guess. Or it was a staged photo while she was asleep, but again, another guess. I'd rather see a staged crib photo than a naked sleeping baby shoved in a cornucopia or bucket, but some people do that too, just my personal taste.

It looks pretty bright, I'm assuming its a daytime nap where she was supervised as well. Jinger is a FTM and she doesn't exactly have the best people in her life to model after. Hopefully as time goes on she will become more confident and find her own rhythm as a parent.

 

[Pretzel]

Y'all, give the girl a break. It's her first baby, she's the only one (besides Anna) who got to have a girl and loves taking pictures on top of that. It's probably a totally staged photo. 

I don't mind head bands, mittens, blankets. Those are definitely not *my* hills to die on. My general assumption is that the kid's parents are not total doofuses, who kinda sorta love their kid and don't want them to die, so they do what they think is best. Until I have solid proof that a kid is harmed, I roll my eyes and move on.

Lots of BEC going on, IMO. 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

ITA @VelociRapture Jill was called out repeatedly for having Samuel's hands in mittens, well beyond what most would consider necessary, as is Felicity now at almost 2 months old. I don't recall Jessa or Joy using mittens on their boys, if they did they didn't share photos of them.

I think Jeremy is going to be more like Derelict in the fathering department. where children should be seen and not heard. They will pose for a  pretty picture, but they will not disturb his time, and they will NEVER be disobedient,  they will never embarrass dad by making a fuss in public, even if only an infant/toddler. He's all about appearances, I know 100 different fundies/Fundy light folks just like him.  They are annoying and superficial and I have no use for them.  

[VelociRapture]

4 hours ago, Pretzel said:

Y'all, give the girl a break. It's her first baby, she's the only one (besides Anna) who got to have a girl and loves taking pictures on top of that. It's probably a totally staged photo. 

I don't mind head bands, mittens, blankets. Those are definitely not *my* hills to die on. My general assumption is that the kid's parents are not total doofuses, who kinda sorta love their kid and don't want them to die, so they do what they think is best. Until I have solid proof that a kid is harmed, I roll my eyes and move on.

Lots of BEC going on, IMO. 

In my opinion the mittens are a bit BEC, but safety concerns absolutely aren’t. Like I mentioned earlier, it’s absolutely possible they supervised her while she slept like this and if that’s the case I’m fine with it. Letting Velocitoddler sleep the way Felicity is (in a loose blanket with a headband) is not something I’ve needed to do so far, but I get that isn’t the case for everyone. If I was in that position I’d absolutely supervise while she slept for safety reasons, so if that’s what they did then good for them. If not then that’s a poor choice based off current recommendations from the medical community in the country in which the Vuolos live*. 

*I’m specifying because recommendations and cultural norms will differ between countries. 

4 hours ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

ITA @VelociRapture Jill was called out repeatedly for having Samuel's hands in mittens, well beyond what most would consider necessary, as is Felicity now at almost 2 months old. I don't recall Jessa or Joy using mittens on their boys, if they did they didn't share photos of them.

I think Jeremy is going to be more like Derelict in the fathering department. where children should be seen and not heard. They will pose for a  pretty picture, but they will not disturb his time, and they will NEVER be disobedient,  they will never embarrass dad by making a fuss in public, even if only an infant/toddler. He's all about appearances, I know 100 different fundies/Fundy light folks just like him.  They are annoying and superficial and I have no use for them.  

I’m pretty sure Jill was called out for using them on Israel as well and she was a first time parent at that point just as Jinger is now. 

As for Jeremy, I’m honestly not sure what type of parent he may be. He could end up being the type of father you described, but some men (and women) soften up a lot once they welcome a child. If I had to guess then I’d say Jeremy would likely be some sort of mix of the two - more than happy to indulge Felicity in some ways while not bending in others. I’d also guess that he’s unlikely to bend on anything connected to his core religious beliefs, whatever they may ultimately be. 

[sleepy_doggos]

On 9/11/2018 at 4:01 PM, PainfullyAware said:

I read an article about how white evangelicals in the southern US are sociologically the most individualistic and least likely to recognize systemic issues of almost any other identity group in the US. It has to do partially with white privilege and partly a faith premised on individual judgment before God (how to account for group culpability on judgment day?). Suddenly so much of the Christian right made sense to me! 

"In Divided by Faith, Michael O. Emerson and Christian Smith probe the grassroots of white evangelical America, through a nationwide telephone survey of 2,000 people, along with 200 face-to-face interviews. The results of their research are surprising. Most white evangelicals, they learned, see no systematic discrimination against blacks; indeed, they deny the existence of any ongoing racial problem in the United States." 

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.researchgate.net/publication/249291851_Divided_By_Faith_Evangelical_Religion_and_the_Problem_of_Race_in_America/amp

I know we've kind of stopped talking about the Statement on Social Justice, but it's really been bothering me for the last few days. I was reading Libby Anne's article about it and found a link to this Statement on God's Justice in the comments: https://www.statementongodsjustice.com/

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2018/09/on-john-macarthurs-racist-statement-on-social-justice/#comment-4099997702

I am not personally Christian and do not believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, but they stated it is ok to disagree with parts of the statement and still sign. 

I wasn't sure about posting it on Facebook. I posted anyway. Dicks like Jeremy and John MacArthur and all the other people who signed that overtly racist, sexist, LGBTQ hating, sweetly nasty Statement on Social Justice have to know that there are people out there who will not take that shit lying down just because they feel they have a g-d-given right to oppress others. 

[SorenaJ]

So according to Jinger, she originally wanted to give birth at a midwife led birth centre 2.5 hours away. Idk about there, but in the UK you can only give birth at a birth centre if you’re not induced and labour starts spontaneously. Did she plan on driving 2.5 hour in labour? I can see some flaws in that birth plan. 

 

[elliha]

1 hour ago, SorenaJ said:

So according to Jinger, she originally wanted to give birth at a midwife led birth centre 2.5 hours away. Idk about there, but in the UK you can only give birth at a birth centre if you’re not induced and labour starts spontaneously. Did she plan on driving 2.5 hour in labour? I can see some flaws in that birth plan. 

 

Many women have long distances to the hospital in the area I live. A first time mother will most likely be far from active labor by the time they notice they are having contractions so it is doable. It might not be pleasant but if you are motivated to go to a certain place I think it can be very doable. My first labor was an induction due to being overdue by 17 days and it took about 28 hours which is pretty normal for a natural labor too. With my second it took about 8 hours from when the contractions were painful but I had mild contractions for about half a day before that. So, I would easily been able to go on a 2,5 hour car ride. 

[Rachel333]

1 hour ago, elliha said:

Many women have long distances to the hospital in the area I live. A first time mother will most likely be far from active labor by the time they notice they are having contractions so it is doable. It might not be pleasant but if you are motivated to go to a certain place I think it can be very doable. My first labor was an induction due to being overdue by 17 days and it took about 28 hours which is pretty normal for a natural labor too. With my second it took about 8 hours from when the contractions were painful but I had mild contractions for about half a day before that. So, I would easily been able to go on a 2,5 hour car ride. 

Sure a lot of women can drive that distance while in labor, and unfortunately a lot of women have to drive a long distance to the closest hospital, but to plan it when you have closer options? It seems risky when you can't be certain that you won't have a really short labor. It's one thing to say afterwards that you could have done it and another to plan for it when you don't know what your labor will be like.

But of course we don't know if that's what she was planning, and that's not what ended up happening anyway.

[Pretzel]

@Rachel333 And we do not know the exact thought process behind it and will never know I guess.

Would it have been a midwife-led birthing center adjacent to a hospital? A birthing center *in* a hospital? Did they plan to go to the birthing center, and switch to a hospital *in case* she had to be induced? 

Maybe she checked out closer options and felt like they didn't provide an atmosphere in which she'd feel comfortable to give birth? Maybe she chose a place that provided more options of post-partum care or Nicu in case something went wrong? We don't know and as you said, it doesn't matter since Felicity got here safely. 

I strongly believe that a woman gets to have a say over her body and what happens to it, especially when it comes to such a vulnerable situation as child birth. If Jinger felt she was best taken care of at the place where she ended up giving birth (which was a sensible choice), then more power to her. 

[elliha]

1 hour ago, Rachel333 said:

Sure a lot of women can drive that distance while in labor, and unfortunately a lot of women have to drive a long distance to the closest hospital, but to plan it when you have closer options? It seems risky when you can't be certain that you won't have a really short labor. It's one thing to say afterwards that you could have done it and another to plan for it when you don't know what your labor will be like.

But of course we don't know if that's what she was planning, and that's not what ended up happening anyway.

I don't see any problem with it if you also have a back up option if you have a very fast labor. It is genetic to a part so if Michelle and her sisters did not have very fast labors she would be very unlikely to have that especially the first time which is almost always slower for all women. I considered going to a smaller hospital some distance away with my second because that way I would be able to have a calmer environment. However, I live very close to a big hospital and I decided that I would gain more from just staying at home as long as I felt comfortable rather than go in a car for a long drive but other women will have other priorities. In the end I think I made the right option even though my second birth was not a dream birth but an OK one.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

I'm wondering if the birthcenter they choose was a "Christian" center that isn't exactly accredited, or um a more white hospital?  It is one thing to lead heathen brown people to God but another thing, entirely, to have one telling you what to do (i.e. Hispanic/Latinx doctors and nurses).  I know a few folks whom you never would have known they were racists until Obama got elected and the thought of a black man being in charge of them was just too much to bear.

[cascarones]

54 minutes ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

I'm wondering if the birthcenter they choose was a "Christian" center that isn't exactly accredited, or um a more white hospital? 

It is accredited and midwives coordinate with very close to the hospitals and is focused on natural childbirth. I've toured there and it was my first choice as well had I carried to term since my friend had a great experience there (she's not Christian or white). San Antonio is not generally considered a white city and generally is where people who drive across the border for medical care head for, BTW.

[Rachel333]

Oh I'm not saying it would be bad if she planned that (I don't really care), just that it's totally different to say afterwards that you could have done something than it is to plan something.