The Niednagels' Brain Types System

[MamaJunebug]

On 7/10/2019 at 8:43 AM, Khendra said:

It appears so.  It's been awhile since his last one.

In optimistic news, brother Jeremy has vowed to make Brain Types better and more scientific (no more "the FCIR type uses the teleprompter too much," "this type puts their foot in their mouth too much," etc).  And I've been participating in genomic studies to better understand the differences among people, so I have hope these sorts of things will progress in the future.

I enjoy reading about your interest in these things, even if I don’t understand most of it. Please keep us updated on anything & everything. 

[Khendra]

On 7/17/2019 at 4:12 PM, MamaJunebug said:

I enjoy reading about your interest in these things, even if I don’t understand most of it. Please keep us updated on anything & everything. 

Their latest article has a type discrepancy: NBA star Anthony Davis is typed as a #1 FEAR/ESFP here, but they've typed him as a #2 BEAR/ISFP before.

Current FEAR typing: https://braintypes.com/2019/07/7-17-19-kevin-durant-leaves-for-love/

(you may have to access the article through BTI's blog link instead if not a member)

Older BEAR typing:  https://braintypes.com/2014/12/1224-anthony-davis-is-just-a-big-kid/

Check it and screen-shot it before they delete it out of embarrassment.  BTI's pride is they think they're always right.  Those who follow a Law, must be held accountable to that Law.

Anyway, I think they were right the first time.  Davis' speech patterns, facial expressions, etc. seem a lot more in keeping with their BEAR/ISFP athletes than their FEAR/ESFP ones.  I'm thinking Jordan got lazy again and didn't check his article thoroughly before posting it.

They've done this sort of thing before, and it's not hard to spot if one is diligent, detailed, discrepancy-seeking, and autistic enough to go through their reams of data.  Niednagel's older Your Key book types Eddy Curry as a FEAL/ESFJ, for instance, but he later changed him to BEAL/ISFJ.  Nadia Comaneci was revised from BEIR/ISTP to FCIR/ENTP.  Etc.

They are not infallible at all, so when JN calls out someone for wondering about his typing, he should be a lot more modest about it than he has been toward me, when he once said I wasn't a "deeply analytic" enough BT to have questions about one of his typings.  This is the same guy who thought I was an entrepreneurial actor and whose family thought I couldn't excel in grade school because of my type.  Their system still has a long way to go...

[Khendra]

Two years later, and BTI's influence has definitely waned in recent years -- even moreso these last two.  It's nearly crickets for them at this point,

Niednagels have laid low since 2019 (no update to Jordan's blog since then), and with all the mass cultural changes going on, BTs won't seem very significant to most.  As for the brand of Calvinism they (or at least Jordan) practiced for a number of years, the lack of empirical evidence and success for postmillennialism, Doug Wilsonian and Phillipsian patriarchy, and Calvinism's failure to win the "culture wars" are all too sure at this point.  Such things aren't even remotely relevant anymore, and so their attempts at cultural reach have completely failed.

BTI still has occasional articles, but mostly small and not especially insightful, merely repeating older information from years ago.  There's still Jordan's occasional anti-vaxx rant, and his occasional and bizarrely excessive admiration for Scientologist Tom Cruise (who's always given much more grace than, say, a conservative Lutheran), but I'm probably one of only five people who even reads such things anymore.  Only Jordan, in all of Christendom, looks up to Tom Cruise as some sort of role model -- all because Cruise allegedly shares the same BTI as his wife.  Favoritism and partiality and all.

Jeremy has launched BeyondPersonality.com in seeming effort to succeed his father, whom I'm sure will pass soon.  It's just him, Jordan, and Nathan Daher doing it.  Doesn't seem to have a lot of backing.  Not even sure to the extent the sports world, Daniel Amen, neuroscience specialists, or other past affiliates care about their type system.

I still think it had some use, but their weirdness and dogmatism certainly didn't help them any.  I can't give credence to a guy like Wilson, who thinks all women hate sex, can't be visually stimulated, and need to be conquered in the bedroom.  My husband is handsome, I will always like sex, and I will always laugh at the lack of authority someone like Wilson has in his erroneous and absurd sexual theology.

I've found peace in Gospel Vs. Law, the doctrine of vocation, and the lack of works righteousness in confessional Lutheranism.  Even the most conservative Lutherans are mostly pro-vax, separate the two kingdoms and allow for some leeway in political thinking, and don't have anything resembling the authoritarianism of quiverfull homeschool movements.  And there's NOTHING resembling Wilson's weird ideas about sex.

BTI had lots of talk about reality and analysis, but some of their family's own theological doctrines were anything but.  How they expected such a system to captivate the world, when their own theological convictions were on the fringes of weirdness, astonishes me to this day.  But postmillennialism has always made the least sense of the big three (that, amillennialism, and premillennialism).

[Laura2730]

Does anybody have the old wayback machine link to Jeremy and Danielle (Voeller) Niednagel's courtship covenant website? I believe it was something like truelovewaits or something to do with a 'promise' etc.

Edited July 23, 2021 by Laura2730

[Khendra]

I vaguely remember this years ago; I stumbled upon it on Google when I was trying to do more research on Brain Typing.  I remember it had something to do with a promise. 

[Khendra]

I'm back on Facebook after a long time away.  The Niednagel walls are still public, so I can view what they write without friending.  Sadly, almost everything they post now is anti-vaxx, so it's no surprise that also came about recently on the Brain Type Institute web site articles.  Jordan did have a moment of insight where he slammed a toxic patriarchal idea of blaming mothers for when their children act out, but that moment of insight was sadly drowned out by a bunch of anti-vaxx posts.  Even Jeremy is into it.  I thought he would be less prone to conspiracy theories.  But the Niednagels do seem to follow whatever conservative consensus is, and will narrowly obsess over whatever the current issue of the day is in such circles.  I think my church denomination (WELS, Wisconsin Synod Lutheran) might be the only theologically conservative one, along with LCMS (Missouri Synod Lutheran), that hasn't given into the mob, and still affirms the vaxx. (See https://wels.net/faq/immunizations/

Anyway, my husband was right.  I should have left their influence a long time ago.  I ran into Jeremy a few months ago at a pet store, and tried giving BeyondPersonality.com a chance last year (I was assessed INTP/BCIR by him, thus finally and officially contradicting his father's assertion that I was ENTP/FCIR).  But I really don't see eye-to-eye enough with these people to keep espousing their Brain Type/Beyond Personality system, however reluctantly.  Almost everyone I've brought it up to in the past thinks it's super weird anyway, and the further I try to explain it, the more confused people get.  And if the Niednagels have any hope of bringing their system further into the scientific realm, like they once aspired to, their vehement anti-vaxx stances absolutely will not help their case any.

[MamaJunebug]

Jordan ❤️ Tom Cruise because Tom’s brain is like unto the fair Melissa’s?**
 

I’m cracking up! And glad to know the BT stuff is waning. Any ideas about how they’re supporting their indulgent lifestyles of frequent, huge family vacations at nice resorts? 

** Any similarity between Mr. Cruise and anyone in my personal orbit would cause me to orbit a little farther away from that person! But that’s just me. 
 

PPS: Doesn't traditional Lutheranism work well?  Not the contemporary drift to Biblical womanhood and manhood, but the Law / Gospel, 2-kingdom ideas? Love those!—especially in this era.  

[Khendra]

2 hours ago, MamaJunebug said:

Jordan ❤️ Tom Cruise because Tom’s brain is like unto the fair Melissa’s?**
 

I’m cracking up! And glad to know the BT stuff is waning. Any ideas about how they’re supporting their indulgent lifestyles of frequent, huge family vacations at nice resorts? 

** Any similarity between Mr. Cruise and anyone in my personal orbit would cause me to orbit a little farther away from that person! But that’s just me. 
 

PPS: Doesn't traditional Lutheranism work well?  Not the contemporary drift to Biblical womanhood and manhood, but the Law / Gospel, 2-kingdom ideas? Love those!—especially in this era.  

Yes, Tom Cruise is supposedly the male Melissa, lol.  (Melissa's Facebook wall, incidentally, is refreshingly non-confrontational.  But she's into Ann Voskamp and Lauren Daigle, which would draw the disapproval of Michelle Lesley.)  And Tom Cruise is the same type as the beloved Mr. Rogers!  Given that one of my husband's main heroes is Mr. Rogers, and that Tom Cruise is one of the people he finds the most obnoxious, he found that them sharing a type didn't seem particularly meaningful.

I don't know if the Niednagels still do the vacation thing.  I know that father Niednagel did well back in his sports days, but I still don't really know what his sons do.  Jordan seems to do some web site design, and Jeremy does carpentry of some sort (I think?), but not sure what other endeavors they do beyond their type system stuff.

Traditional Lutheranism does work well!  Thankfully I've never seen the Reformed dogmas of 'Biblical womanhood and manhood' (aka cultural womanhood and manhood) appear in the LCMS or WELS churches I've been at.  We believe in headship, but we don't go beyond that.  LCMS and WELS still do a pretty good job at avoiding trends in other conservative Protestant denominations that have become divisive, like the "you must not take the vaccine or you're not a real Christian" thing (my city had to deal with this kind of thing recently -- read and weep: https://www.news-leader.com/story/news/politics/2021/08/23/417-freedom-fighters-leader-mercy-organizers-christopher-key-cox-walmart-protests-vaccine-police/8237890002 )

Edited August 27, 2021 by Khendra

[MamaJunebug]

Well … if anything cast doubt in my mind over the reliability of a method, equating Mr. Cruise and Mr. Rogers would be that thing!!! 
 

10 hours ago, Khendra said:

Thankfully I've never seen the Reformed dogmas of 'Biblical womanhood and manhood' (aka cultural womanhood and manhood) appear in the LCMS or WELS churches I've been at.  We believe in headship, but we don't go beyond that.  LCMS and WELS still do a pretty good job at avoiding trends in other conservative Protestant denominations that have become divisive, like the "you must not take the vaccine or you're not a real Christian" thing (my city had to deal with this kind of thing recently -- read and weep:

Glad to know you’re not seeing the faux man/womanhood thing happening. At the congregation where I most recently attended, the pastor was a right jerk about it. There’s also the influential “Issues, Etc.” host who unapologetically avers that while not all men are called to be pastors, all women are called “to be our wives and our mothers.”  Needy little darling, I imagine him!

Sorry to know Springfield is such a haven for extremists. I have some family there and will be checking on them, thanks to the article. 

[Khendra]

While the Biblical manhood/womanhood thing never really made it in our circles, the mother thing was admittedly pushed a lot at the LCMS back when I was a member.  I remember not being included in the women's social circles with people my age because I didn't have children at the time.  I also remember getting lectured on an LCMS Discord server by a woman almost ten years younger than me about motherhood being "woman's greatest calling."  I explained that Paul in the Bible actually said singlehood is the greatest calling for men and women, to her silence.  She herself was completely single and childless, mind you, but got to be a mod simply because she regurgitated all the expected things.  I at least was married.

Ironically, in that same LCMS Discord server, a pastor there actually made fun of me for believing in Brain Types.  I sent them articles written by Jon Niednagel, including some of the 2012 political ones where he spoke about his own Brain Type being better at following moral boundaries than others.  I guess that turned them off, lol.

 

[MamaJunebug]

On 8/28/2021 at 4:35 PM, Khendra said:

LCMS Discord

What a name! Was it a play on the word “Concordia,” do you think? 

[Khendra]

16 hours ago, MamaJunebug said:

What a name! Was it a play on the word “Concordia,” do you think? 

Coincidence Discord is a communication app primarily for video gamers and users of Reddit forums. The pastor who ran it was both a gamer and a heavy Reddit user. I was surrounded by lots of mid twentysomethings and felt like such an awkward fossil. I was only slightly less out of place there than with Niednagel Calvinists on Facebook!

[Alisamer]

3 minutes ago, Khendra said:

Coincidence Discord is a communication app primarily for video gamers and users of Reddit forums. The pastor who ran it was both a gamer and a heavy Reddit user. I was surrounded by lots of mid twentysomethings and felt like such an awkward fossil. I was only slightly less out of place there than with Niednagel Calvinists on Facebook!

Interestingly, my 70+ year old mother is a frequent user of Discord. She's on the local Pokemon Go channel joining raids ALL THE TIME.

I use discord for Pokemon Go, Animal Crossing, and most of all Kitten Academy!

[MamaJunebug]

Wow! I just entered a whole new subject! Thank you for the insight. Aldo @Alisamer   I’ll never ever know about one-thousandth of the stuff out there. 

[richnba4357]

 Hey @Khendra what your analysis  on the Brain type system and how effect has it been for you.

[Khendra]

^ ooh, a bot that doesn't read.

Back to the Nieds and vaxxes.  I do find it interesting that Dr. Ben Carson (who is said to have the same BT as me) and Donald Trump both support the vaccines -- not the coercion of them, but the efficacy of them.  I remember Jordan Niednagel writing that Marvin Hagler "died of the vaccine" on BTI awhile back.  Well, here's Dr. Carson:

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2021/08/01/dr_ben_carson_the_delta_variant_is_very_contagious_but_it_is_not_very_virulent_or_powerful.html

"The fact of the matter is, the vaccines are very effective. ... And the ones who have died, which are very, very few, by the way -- your chances of dying if you have been vaccinated are about the same as being struck by lightning"

And yes, even the beloved-by-conservatives, Donald Trump himself, supported the vaccines despite being booed by the Alabama mob:

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-booed-alabama-rally-after-telling-supporters-get-vaccinated-n1277404

I'll see if this convinces BTI.  Jordan's type (INFP) isn't "dominant inanimate" as Ben Carson (INTP) or Donald Trump (ENTJ).  They use feelings instead of logic to come to decisions.  I'd rather go with Dr. Carson on medical decisions than Jordan Niednagel.

[Khendra]

Whoops...my bad on Jeremy. Yes, Jordan is pretty much antivaxx, but Jeremy is more or less just against the mandate. Not against the vax per se. So there's that at least.

Jordan more or less writes most/all of BTI articles these days.

[Khendra]

Perhaps the biggest weakness of The Brain Type Institute is how they constantly struggle to reconcile the diversity of human expression with their excessively singular focus on type.  They always want to force emphasis back on type alone, as if that's the most important aspect of a human being (as I once argued in an earlier post, if it were, then why is the Bible completely silent on the issue of 'Brain Types,' and why do most human beings choose to identify and fight more for their religious, political, ethnic, and gender identities more than their Myers-Briggs and Enneagram identities?).

An excerpt from their latest article indicating this endless problem of theirs:

"The #15 FCIL (ENTJ) persona can vary based on gender, upbringing, and certain neurological differences, from the rather stone-faced Margaret Thatcher, Queen Elisabeth, and even former Jeopardy host Alex Trebek, to the more unrefined Rush Limbaugh or George W. Bush.  But..."

No, there's no "but."  And it's a bit insulting to say that these people are only different because they take on a "persona" imposed on them by their gender, upbringing, or neurology.  Those facets of a person's being have just as much of an impact, and just as much meaning -- if not more so -- to a person's whole self, as their type does.

(By the way, until 2017, they typed Queen Elisabeth as a BEIL/ISTJ.  I remember an older article where they once said she has polar opposite expressions from Oprah Winfrey, ENFP, because they had opposite types.  So even they can't always accurately identify a so-called "persona" and separate it from someone's alleged inborn type, much less us peons who can't see the intricacies of their type system as well as they supposedly can.)

A person's 'type' is just one aspect of who they are.  Montrezl Harrell and Princess Diana may both be ESFJ/FEAL types, but they are not the same people.  Alex Jones and Barack Obama may both be ENTP/FCIR types, but they are worlds apart in worldview.  You can't just "but" your way out of that with some gobbledygook about "persona."  It only shows the weakness of the impact of the type system, and they can't accept that because they have an agenda in trying to make Brain Types look much more important than they really are in explaining what someone is like.

[Khendra]

BTI gets less and less scientific as time goes on.  And their favoritism for Tom Cruise and Prince William, two of their pet "left brain" types, is beyond nauseating.

Witness:

https://braintypes.com/2021/10/10-25-21-prince-william-not-happy-with-branson-musk-and-bezos/

BTI, as I've said before, loves the royals.  So Prince William's concern for the environment, rather than being an obnoxious leftist viewpoint -- as it would be to BTI if it came from an FCIR/ENTP -- is simply him being a responsible FCIL/ENTJ left-brainer trying to keep the world on its axis.  Meanwhile, all those FCIR/ENTP adrenaline junkies flying in outer space, are just Right brainers wanting the world to go around, and being immature boys having Right-brained fun.

But when Tom Cruise, a left brained FCAL/ENFJ, does similar things?  Well, he's just being a smiling adrenaline junkie -- and a more 'calculated' one:

https://braintypes.com/2021/12/12-6-21-tom-cruise-smiles-in-the-face-of-danger/

Don't try and make scientific sense out of this, because you can't.

It's just BTI playing favorites.

They like the Left brain types more than the Right brain ones -- and so when Tom Cruise and Prince William say or do things that they wouldn't approve FCIR/ENTPs of doing, it gets excused by them.

So nauseating...such confirmation bias and lack of falsifiability in the claims, too.

(By the way, I'm allegedly one of those "right brainers," supposed to make the world go 'round.  One of BTI's associates once tried to insist that I had to thus be an adrenaline junkie because of that.  But I'm a stay at home wife and soon to be stay at home mother.  That's keeping the world on its axis, not seeking thrills.  I'm sure they'd try to qualify that in some way, and say I'm more adept in the left brain because I'm a woman, or whatever.  But if it's women who are more proficient in the left hemisphere, as they claim...and the left hemisphere is the more moral and more responsible one...then why are they so big on the patriarchy?  So many holes in their systems...)

Edited December 9, 2021 by Khendra

[zee_four]

I just want to punch I think its Jordan? In the face. And his wife Melissa. Their latest blog post was 2019 about a trip to Maui. They insulted Natives with all their George of the Jungle type language when doing "Native" things, called their blonde haole child a local and worst, bragged about ignoring 'Do not pass beyond this point' signs on a hike in an ecologically fragile area and laughed about it and said all the other tourists did too so it was totally okay. GTFO and go back to the mainland. My dad and obviously my ohana are Native Hawaiian and I currently live on O'ahu though most of my ohana is from Kauai. That disrespectful BS is typical of a certain type of mainland haole tourists who think Hawai'i exists for their pleasure and they have a right to our land our culture and our people, mocking us as outdated, disrespecting our culture and stomping all over vulnerable and/or sacred sites disobeying our laws and signs because they don't believe the rules apply to them.  GRRRRR. I don't even know who these people are but I am not impressed and I hope their smug faves never show up on the islands again and if they do they get the fake 'Aloha' local style smackdown they deserve. 

[Khendra]

13 hours ago, zee_four said:

I just want to punch I think its Jordan? In the face. And his wife Melissa. Their latest blog post was 2019 about a trip to Maui. They insulted Natives with all their George of the Jungle type language when doing "Native" things, called their blonde haole child a local and worst, bragged about ignoring 'Do not pass beyond this point' signs on a hike in an ecologically fragile area and laughed about it and said all the other tourists did too so it was totally okay. GTFO and go back to the mainland. My dad and obviously my ohana are Native Hawaiian and I currently live on O'ahu though most of my ohana is from Kauai. That disrespectful BS is typical of a certain type of mainland haole tourists who think Hawai'i exists for their pleasure and they have a right to our land our culture and our people, mocking us as outdated, disrespecting our culture and stomping all over vulnerable and/or sacred sites disobeying our laws and signs because they don't believe the rules apply to them.  GRRRRR. I don't even know who these people are but I am not impressed and I hope their smug faves never show up on the islands again and if they do they get the fake 'Aloha' local style smackdown they deserve. 

I don't know anything about Hawaiian culture, but sad to hear if that's the case.  The Niednagels ARE very insular, so it wouldn't surprise me -- Jordan, especially, as he was homeschooled his entire life, whereas Jeremy has had more exposure to the outside world.  That same insularity prevents them from seeing perspectives outside the very narrow perception of their type system, which they think factors into things as irrelevant as the ones I mentioned in their recent articles.  I live a quiet and inconsequential life...nothing I do makes the world go around.  Saying that's one of the primary differences between "right brainers" and "left brainers" is simply conjecture, not science, and they cherry-pick data that fits such preconceptions while explaining away the lack of falsification with vague statements like "not all right and left brainers are this way, but..."

My husband was right...I put too much stock into this stuff.  It seemed to have some use, but I should probably stop reading the articles.  My son is due next month, so I'll be super busy anyway soon, and won't have time to read things that might pollute my mind.  Got to keep the baby on his axis

[Khendra]

I haven't read a BTI article in quite awhile.  But my little guy is now 4 and a half months, and he seems to be one of their ENTP/FCIRs, lol!

I remember the Niednagels said you can type babies based on their cry, etc.  Well, little guy is more extrovert than me or my husband (we're likely both INTP/BCIRs), and has quite a vocal range, and smiles a lot!

At the same time, he can also play by himself.  So he seems to be extrovert (E) and inanimate (T).  A feeler child would need even more human contact and affection, and would have trouble playing by themselves.  He's also quite easygoing, receptive to new situations, not colicky or fearful.  So based on his vocal range, adaptability, sociability, and ability to play a bit by himself as well, ENTP/FCIR fits best.  The Niednagels often criticize this type, but my son is a delight.  I hope he never loses his enthusiasm -- but as he grows older, we will also make him wise to the ways of the world.  My dad (ENTP himself) is kind of Polyanna, but I want my little guy to be a bit more knowledgeable and discerning.  Despite Niednagels' stereotypes, I think FCIR/ENTP can be appropriately serious, work-oriented, and the like given a balanced environment.

Edited May 21, 2022 by Khendra

[Alisamer]

On 5/21/2022 at 11:59 AM, Khendra said:

I haven't read a BTI article in quite awhile.  But my little guy is now 4 and a half months, and he seems to be one of their ENTP/FCIRs, lol!

Honestly I put more faith in my tarot cards than these brain type analyses, but congrats on the little guy! He sounds like an awesome bub. 

[LittleMy]

I've always been slightly interested in the whole Myers Briggs thing but I've never encountered the Niednagel slant on it, in fact I find it all quite hard to understand, but this could be my type, I'm an ISFP which is probably not one of the desired ones!!!

Anyway whatever type your child is, he sounds absolutely lovely, many congratulations!!!

[MamaJunebug]

@Khendra, li’l momma!  All my best wishes!! 
 

Not that it’s a smidgen of my business, but have you had Little Bit baptized, LCMS-style?   Was your labor & delivery such that you’re planning on a sibling, or is he gonna be fine as a doted-upon only?  Again, you owe me no answer at all, but old lady that I am, I’m just too tickled by your news not to ask as the Q’s I usually blurt out in happy times!

 

My story with Junior Junebug #1: In labor, I grabbed the husband by the collar and hissed , “We are having an ONLY CHILD! GOT THAT?”

Approximately 3 hours later, post-delivery, I was doing mental math on how soon I could produce for the li’l miracle -  a sibling!!!! 
 

Blessings on all your long lives together! ❤️❤️❤️