Gun Violence Part 2: Thoughts and Prayers STILL Don't Work

[Howl]

F**k that guy.  He's running unopposed (so far) in TX District 6. 

[Ozlsn]

4 hours ago, AmericanRose said:

Then there's this asshole.

 

So his response to this is basically "thoughts and prayers. Oh and more guns". 

Seriously 'this won't stop a person with evil intent' is the most useless of arguments. Laws against stealing won't stop a person with evil intent either, and yet he doesn't seem to want to disable them. Laws against drink driving won't stop people from drink driving - and again he's not arguing to remove them, even though they infringe on the rights of responsible people who both drink alcohol and drive cars (not simultaneously obviously). Laws against committing an act of terrorism aren't going to stop people with evil intent either and I'll lay money that he's all in favour of those ones.

I really hope someone more moderate runs against him and beats the pants off him.

[Becky]

I will third the sentiment of F*** That Guy.  Any fifth grader could refute his argument. 

Are law enforcement unions and officials speaking out against laws loosen restrictions? If not, why?   I would think a bunch of yahoos with guns around your active shooter crime scene would make it hella difficult to figure out how many actual shooters there are, and who you should be targeting.  In fact, I wonder if that was a factor in Odessa, where initial reports could not confirm how many shooters there were.  

[Audrey2]

So, of course the Evangelicals/Fundies have to weigh in.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/tony-perkins-mass-shootings-080832225.html

Evangelical Leader Claims Teaching Kids Basic Science Causes Mass Shootings

Spoiler

An evangelical leader claimed Sunday that mass shootings are caused by “driving God from the public square,” and specifically by teaching kids about evolution. 

“We’ve taught our kids that they come about by chance through primordial slime and then we’re surprised that they treat their fellow Americans like dirt,” Tony Perkins, head of the Family Research Council, said on “Fox & Friends” one day after a gunman in Texas killed seven and wounded 21 others.

“I think we have to go back to the point where we instill in these children, at least give them the opportunity to know that they’re created in the image of God, therefore they have inherent value,” he added. 

Perkins also claimed it’s impossible to have morality without religion, a view he said George Washington had shared.

He did not, however, offer any theories as to how nations with lower levels of religious adherence manage to avoid mass shootings. 

Tony Perkins@tperkins

The latest shooting in West Texas is tragic. We need to come together from all sides to have a discussion as to how to end this. But we can’t just discuss the instruments of violence – we must address the inspiration. We need a return to faith & morality.https://video.foxnews.com/v/6082292566001/#sp=show-clips …

 Fox News ‎@FoxNews

 

 

I just don't know what to say... I don't think teaching creation only will stop these shootings.

[AmazonGrace]

They're teaching science in a number of countries with zero mass shootings.

[47of74]

Perkins makes me fucking sick.  He really does.  It's because of dumb fucks like him that we're in the shape we are now.  I wish these Reich wing fascists would drink a big ol cup of shut the fuck up. 

[AnywhereButHere]

I’d love to tell him that actually, yes evolution (mental evolution - i.e. thinking and education) will actually stop mass shootings. 

As a product of a system that exists mainly by keeping its members stupid though, I think my head would explode before he conceded the point. It’s like they conducted some sick, twisted cost benefit ratio and came to the conclusion that the less educated they are, yeah a “few” may die, but we’ll keep the money rolling in from the masses. ?

[GreyhoundFan]

From a parent of one of the Parkland victims:

 

[fraurosena]

At the best of times, this is a depressing thread. So I thought I'd liven things up a little. Jim Jefferies is so funny, and so on point.

[Warning, very, very, very NSFW]

 

[Ozlsn]

6 hours ago, Audrey2 said:

So, of course the Evangelicals/Fundies have to weigh in.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/tony-perkins-mass-shootings-080832225.html

Evangelical Leader Claims Teaching Kids Basic Science Causes Mass Shootings

  Hide contents

An evangelical leader claimed Sunday that mass shootings are caused by “driving God from the public square,” and specifically by teaching kids about evolution. 

“We’ve taught our kids that they come about by chance through primordial slime and then we’re surprised that they treat their fellow Americans like dirt,” Tony Perkins, head of the Family Research Council, said on “Fox & Friends” one day after a gunman in Texas killed seven and wounded 21 others.

“I think we have to go back to the point where we instill in these children, at least give them the opportunity to know that they’re created in the image of God, therefore they have inherent value,” he added. 

Perkins also claimed it’s impossible to have morality without religion, a view he said George Washington had shared.

He did not, however, offer any theories as to how nations with lower levels of religious adherence manage to avoid mass shootings. 

Tony Perkins@tperkins

The latest shooting in West Texas is tragic. We need to come together from all sides to have a discussion as to how to end this. But we can’t just discuss the instruments of violence – we must address the inspiration. We need a return to faith & morality.https://video.foxnews.com/v/6082292566001/#sp=show-clips …

 Fox News ‎@FoxNews

 

 

I just don't know what to say... I don't think teaching creation only will stop these shootings.

No but some basic physics might help Tony Perkins understand the effects of a bullet fired from a weapon when it goes through flesh.

Also I love how these guys spend so much time demonising others - the gays, the Muslims, the atheists, the Catholics, anyone different to themselves - and then claim that teaching that everyone is created in God's image and has inherent value will help. When I see them acting like they actually believe that then maybe I'll believe it. Till then I'd much rather all kids learned science and humanities, and about the extent and limits of our knowledge and imagination.

[thoughtful]

The idea that teaching evolution = teaching children that humans are worthless products of coincidence is such bullshit. It's one of the things about fundies and other science deniers that makes me see red.

Billions of random chances led to any one of us being here, including Tony Perkins and all of his kin. It doesn't mean we don't value life.

I can easily accept that life can be a crapshoot, including whether any of us were born, and still value my life and the lives of others. Funny how it has never given me any desire to kill anyone.

 

[47of74]

No but some basic physics might help Tony Perkins understand the effects of a bullet fired from a weapon when it goes through flesh.
Also I love how these guys spend so much time demonising others - the gays, the Muslims, the atheists, the Catholics, anyone different to themselves - and then claim that teaching that everyone is created in God's image and has inherent value will help. When I see them acting like they actually believe that then maybe I'll believe it. Till then I'd much rather all kids learned science and humanities, and about the extent and limits of our knowledge and imagination.

When idiots like Perkins open their traps I get so disgusted with all of Christianity that if the price of having these people lose their influence is for all of Christianity to go away that’s fine with me. I don’t walk away from it though because it would be letting these fuck sticks win in their hijacking of Jesus Christ and His movement.

[GreyhoundFan]

Sigh: "‘So shocking and brazen’: 3 people shot outside Minnesota State Fair, police say"

Spoiler

Three people were shot outside the Minnesota State Fair on Monday night, as authorities are investigating the gunman’s whereabouts hours after the Labor Day shooting sent thousands of fairgoers into panic, police told The Washington Post.

St. Paul Police spokesman Steve Linders said no arrests have been made and that the identity of the gunman remains unknown. The three injured men — two 20-year-olds and an 18-year-old — suffered nonfatal injuries and are expected to survive, Linders said.

“It was truly a chaotic scene,” he said early Tuesday. “To see something like this is nothing short of outrageous.”

The shooting near the nation’s second-largest state fair concludes a summer marred by a stretch of mass shootings that killed more than 50 people in August and injured dozens more. It comes days after a mass shooting in West Texas that killed at least seven people and injured 22 renewed calls from Democrats and 2020 presidential candidates for President Trump and Republicans to tighten gun regulations.

Police were called to outside the fair in St. Paul around 10 p.m., shortly after responding to the city’s 15th homicide of the year several miles away. Authorities received a report that a 19-year-old woman was hit by a vehicle in a pedestrian crash, Linders said. The public information officer said the woman remains in critical condition and that the driver of the car was the one who called 911 and has been cooperating with authorities.

Then, around 10:20 p.m., several gunshots were heard a block south from the crash scene. When police arrived, they found one man had been injured from the gunfire. Later, two more people arrived at area hospitals with wounds from the shooting.

Speaking to reporters early Tuesday, Linders said that one of the wounded 20-year-olds was shot in the stomach and pelvic area. The other 20-year-old was shot in the hand and the 18-year-old was hit in the shoulder, he said. Their names had not been released by police as of early Tuesday.

While Linders said it was possible that the pedestrian crash and shooting were connected, police are still investigating both incidents.

Given St. Paul police’s heavy presence at the fair, which attracted nearly 250,000 visitors on Sunday, Linders categorized the scene as “disturbing.”

“We have a lot of people out there, so it’s so shocking and brazen because we have so many officers on site,” he said to The Post.

Witnesses took to social media as the chaos occurred in real time on the last night of the fair. One witness described to KARE how he heard about eight gunshots and how he and other fairgoers scrambled to safety.

“Everyone sort of reacted at the same time and realized that it was gunfire. People all kind of hit the deck and started scrambling from where we were at the bus stops,” he told the news outlet. “It was all extremely quick and panicked. We just got out as fast as we could.”

The shooting in St. Paul comes at the end of a summer that included another devastating incident of gunfire at a popular festival. In July, a 19-year-old gunman killed three people, including two children, and injured a dozen at the Gilroy Garlic Festival, a California food event that attracts thousands annually to a small city southeast of San Jose.

Linders lauded officers for immediately responding to the gunfire. Police are asking anyone with information on those responsible for the shooting to contact authorities.

Standing in front of the St. Paul Police Department’s headquarters early Tuesday, Linders said he recognized how the “incredibly dangerous” scene that had unfolded hours earlier could have been even worse.

“Everybody was put at risk,” he said. “We’re lucky more people weren’t injured or killed.”

 

[GreyhoundFan]

For FJers not in the US, Popeye's Chicken has introduced a chicken sandwich to rival Chick-Fil-A. It has sold ridiculously well, and is now out of stock pretty much everywhere. "A man pulled a gun to demand Popeyes chicken sandwiches after they sold out"

Spoiler

If you thought the Popeyes chicken sandwich craze had reached its peak when the product sold out last week, think again.

On Monday, one customer became so enraged to find the hot item gone that he pulled a gun at a restaurant in Houston, police told local news stations.

Popeyes Louisiana Chicken announced last Tuesday that it would soon run out of its star offering just weeks after the product’s nationwide launch Aug. 12, after a Twitter feud between Popeyes and rival Chick-fil-A propelled the new product to fame.

Not everyone got the memo. Five adults with a baby headed to a Popeyes in Houston’s southeast at about 9 p.m. Monday to order chicken sandwiches at the drive-through, employees told ABC 13. Informed that item was unavailable, the group tried to enter the store, leaving the child in a car.

Staff were able to lock the group out, police told the news station, but a man in the group brandished a pistol and “demanded” the item that has generated massive buzz for the fast-food chain this month. A manager repeated that they were sold out, and the group eventually fled.

Police say no one was hurt, according to KHOU 11. Witnesses reported that the suspects left in a blue SUV.

Lt. Larry Crowson of the Houston police said the man who pulled his gun could face aggravated assault charges because he was showing a weapon and threatening staff, ABC 13 reported. Authorities say the suspect is reported to have dreadlocks and face tattoos and was wearing a black shirt with red sleeves.

The suspect is not the only Popeyes customer said to have taken drastic action over the sandwich. One man in Tennessee went so far as to sue the company for $5,000 in connection with the product’s disappearance, alleging “false advertising” and “deceptive business practices,” NBC News reported last week.

The alleged Texas gunman, the Tennessee litigant and hungry Popeyes customers everywhere can look forward to the chicken sandwich’s return.

“We, along with our suppliers, are working tirelessly to bring the new sandwich back to guests as soon as possible,” Popeyes said last week in a statement to The Post.

 

[GreyhoundFan]

"‘The status quo is unacceptable’: Walmart will stop selling some ammunition and exit the handgun market"

Spoiler

Walmart will stop selling handguns and certain types of ammunition, and will no longer allow customers to openly carry firearms, after separate shootings at company stores last month left at least 24 people dead.

“It’s clear to us that the status quo is unacceptable,” chief executive Doug McMillon said in a memo to employees on Tuesday. “We know these decisions will inconvenience some of our customers, and we hope they will understand."

The world’s largest retailer says it will stop selling ammunition for handguns and short-barrel rifles — including .223 caliber and 5.56 caliber cartridges, which can be used in military-style weapons — once it sells through its current stock. Those changes are likely to lower the company’s market share of ammunition sales from about 20 percent to as little as 6 percent, the company said.

“The basic principle here is that if we don’t sell the gun, we are no longer going to sell the ammunition,” Dan Barlett, executive vice president of corporate affairs, said in a call with reporters on Tuesday. He did not offer details on how the changes might impact the company’s financial performance.

Walmart, which sells guns in about half of its 4,750 U.S. stores, will continue selling long-barrel deer rifles and shot guns, as well as well as other firearms and ammunition for hunting and sports shooting, McMillon said. It will also continue to allow customers to carry concealed firearms at Walmart and Sam’s Club store, as long as they have proper permits.

The decision comes after mounting pressure from gun-control advocacy groups, politicians and Walmart’s own employees. About 40 white-collar Walmart worked in California walked out on the job last month to protest its gun policies.

Walmart, which is based in Bentonville, Ark., has tightened its gun policies over the years. It stopped selling handguns in 1993 (though it continued to do so in Alaska) and phased out assault-style rifles in 2015. Last year, it raised the minimum age for gun purchases from 18 to 21, two weeks after 17 students and teachers were killed in a shooting at a high school in Parkland, Fla.

The company’s latest measures come after a man with an assault rifle killed 22 people at a Walmart in El Paso on Aug. 3, just days after a Walmart employee in Southaven, Miss., fatally shot two co-workers.

McMillon, who is a gun owner, said the company is also calling on the president and members of Congress to advance “common sense measures,” like more stringent background checks.

 

[47of74]

6 minutes ago, GreyhoundFan said:

"‘The status quo is unacceptable’: Walmart will stop selling some ammunition and exit the handgun market"

  Reveal hidden contents

Walmart will stop selling handguns and certain types of ammunition, and will no longer allow customers to openly carry firearms, after separate shootings at company stores last month left at least 24 people dead.

“It’s clear to us that the status quo is unacceptable,” chief executive Doug McMillon said in a memo to employees on Tuesday. “We know these decisions will inconvenience some of our customers, and we hope they will understand."

The world’s largest retailer says it will stop selling ammunition for handguns and short-barrel rifles — including .223 caliber and 5.56 caliber cartridges, which can be used in military-style weapons — once it sells through its current stock. Those changes are likely to lower the company’s market share of ammunition sales from about 20 percent to as little as 6 percent, the company said.

“The basic principle here is that if we don’t sell the gun, we are no longer going to sell the ammunition,” Dan Barlett, executive vice president of corporate affairs, said in a call with reporters on Tuesday. He did not offer details on how the changes might impact the company’s financial performance.

Walmart, which sells guns in about half of its 4,750 U.S. stores, will continue selling long-barrel deer rifles and shot guns, as well as well as other firearms and ammunition for hunting and sports shooting, McMillon said. It will also continue to allow customers to carry concealed firearms at Walmart and Sam’s Club store, as long as they have proper permits.

The decision comes after mounting pressure from gun-control advocacy groups, politicians and Walmart’s own employees. About 40 white-collar Walmart worked in California walked out on the job last month to protest its gun policies.

Walmart, which is based in Bentonville, Ark., has tightened its gun policies over the years. It stopped selling handguns in 1993 (though it continued to do so in Alaska) and phased out assault-style rifles in 2015. Last year, it raised the minimum age for gun purchases from 18 to 21, two weeks after 17 students and teachers were killed in a shooting at a high school in Parkland, Fla.

The company’s latest measures come after a man with an assault rifle killed 22 people at a Walmart in El Paso on Aug. 3, just days after a Walmart employee in Southaven, Miss., fatally shot two co-workers.

McMillon, who is a gun owner, said the company is also calling on the president and members of Congress to advance “common sense measures,” like more stringent background checks.

 

Yeah I was just coming here to make mention of that myself.  

Time to haul this out and be ready when the gun reichs freaks get wind of this 

 

[Audrey2]

3 hours ago, GreyhoundFan said:

"‘The status quo is unacceptable’: Walmart will stop selling some ammunition and exit the handgun market"

  Reveal hidden contents

Walmart will stop selling handguns and certain types of ammunition, and will no longer allow customers to openly carry firearms, after separate shootings at company stores last month left at least 24 people dead.

“It’s clear to us that the status quo is unacceptable,” chief executive Doug McMillon said in a memo to employees on Tuesday. “We know these decisions will inconvenience some of our customers, and we hope they will understand."

The world’s largest retailer says it will stop selling ammunition for handguns and short-barrel rifles — including .223 caliber and 5.56 caliber cartridges, which can be used in military-style weapons — once it sells through its current stock. Those changes are likely to lower the company’s market share of ammunition sales from about 20 percent to as little as 6 percent, the company said.

“The basic principle here is that if we don’t sell the gun, we are no longer going to sell the ammunition,” Dan Barlett, executive vice president of corporate affairs, said in a call with reporters on Tuesday. He did not offer details on how the changes might impact the company’s financial performance.

Walmart, which sells guns in about half of its 4,750 U.S. stores, will continue selling long-barrel deer rifles and shot guns, as well as well as other firearms and ammunition for hunting and sports shooting, McMillon said. It will also continue to allow customers to carry concealed firearms at Walmart and Sam’s Club store, as long as they have proper permits.

The decision comes after mounting pressure from gun-control advocacy groups, politicians and Walmart’s own employees. About 40 white-collar Walmart worked in California walked out on the job last month to protest its gun policies.

Walmart, which is based in Bentonville, Ark., has tightened its gun policies over the years. It stopped selling handguns in 1993 (though it continued to do so in Alaska) and phased out assault-style rifles in 2015. Last year, it raised the minimum age for gun purchases from 18 to 21, two weeks after 17 students and teachers were killed in a shooting at a high school in Parkland, Fla.

The company’s latest measures come after a man with an assault rifle killed 22 people at a Walmart in El Paso on Aug. 3, just days after a Walmart employee in Southaven, Miss., fatally shot two co-workers.

McMillon, who is a gun owner, said the company is also calling on the president and members of Congress to advance “common sense measures,” like more stringent background checks.

 

Hmmm... So now what are people going to do? Stereotypically, people who shop at Walmart tend to also watch Fox "news" and love Trump and guns. I wonder if these people will continue to shop at Walmart. I wonder what Fox things about this?

[Maggie Mae]

7 minutes ago, Audrey2 said:

Hmmm... So now what are people going to do? Stereotypically, people who shop at Walmart tend to also watch Fox "news" and love Trump and guns. I wonder if these people will continue to shop at Walmart. I wonder what Fox things about this?

They'll go next door to Cabelas, or Bass Pro Shops, or a local shop. They'll still shop at Walmart. 

[AmazonGrace]

Alabama teen shoots his entire family. Because science. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/sep/03/alabama-teenager-shotting-five-family-members

[GreyhoundFan]

WTDH?

 

[fraurosena]

 

[GreyhoundFan]

 

[GreyhoundFan]

"‘We’ve got to protect ourselves’: Some threaten to shop elsewhere if they can’t openly carry guns"

Spoiler

Chad Howard carries a pistol everywhere he goes. And he isn’t about to stop now.

On Friday morning, he left home as he always does: with his .40-caliber Smith & Wesson clipped to his right hip. He took his wife to the hospital for blood tests, then went to the local Walmart Supercenter in Corinth, Miss., where he waited to see whether he — and his visible firearm — would still be welcome.

Days earlier, Walmart had become the latest big-box chain to take a public stand on guns when it announced it would ask customers to stop openly carrying firearms in its 4,750 U.S. stores. ‘The retailer said it would stop selling ammunition for military-style rifles and handguns, and would push Congress to pass tighter gun-control laws.

Walmart’s stand represented a major shift in the way retailers are positioning themselves in an increasingly fraught debate over who has the right to have guns, and where. Walmart wasn’t alone. Within hours, Kroger, the country’s largest grocery chain, said it too would ask customers to refrain from openly carrying firearms at all 2,800 of its stores.

CVS, Walgreens and Wegmans made similar announcements in quick succession. In total, those retailers have more than 23,000 stores in the United States, though some of them are in places that already have such a policy against openly carrying guns. Other big chains, such as Target, Starbucks and Chipotle, have had such policies against open carry for years.

Gun-control advocates and industry experts hailed it as an admission by one of the country’s largest corporations that the government wasn’t doing enough to stop gun violence.

“The sheer size and power of Walmart means this is perhaps the biggest blow to the NRA in the history of the organization,” said Chris Allieri, a crisis management expert and founder of Mulberry & Astor, a public relations firm in New York. “This is not some left-leaning coastal CEO sending a tweet or two. This is Walmart saying. ‘This is how we’re going to do business going forward. Take note.’ ”

Although Americans took to social media to say Walmart’s efforts made them feel safer about shopping at the company’s stores, the National Rifle Association and gun rights groups increasingly are encouraging members to stop shopping at retailers that have tightened their open carry policies in recent days. Freedom Movement USA, a group of constitutional conservatives calling for a Walmart boycott, has had 3.5 million visitors on its Facebook pages since Tuesday, according to the group’s head, Brandon Harris.

Howard, 57, who calls himself “a constitutionalist and a Christian,” said the policy changes felt personal. He owns about 20 guns and has been openly carrying a pistol for six years. His wife keeps a revolver in the middle pocket of her purse. He said he quit going to Dick’s Sporting Goods last year after the company stopped selling military-style rifles. Now he’s prepared to boycott Walmart too, if anyone there gives him trouble about his gun.

“With this world being the way it is, we’ve got to protect ourselves,” said Howard, who worked as a construction supervisor until he broke his back on the job 15 years ago. “I haven’t had to shoot anybody yet, but you never know. I’ve keep a fire extinguisher in my house even though I’ve never had to use it.”

On Friday morning, he strolled in as he always does. In the hour he spent buying groceries, he says he saw at least seven others — mostly white men like him in their 50s and 60s — who also had guns visibly strapped to their hips. He chatted with the manager and bought 2½ cases of shotgun shells.

When Howard’s experience was brought to Walmart’s attention, a spokesman said Friday that the company was working to add new signs and employee training that reflect its new open-carry policy in the coming months. In his statement Tuesday, chief executive Doug McMillon, who is also a gun owner, said the company will have “a very nonconfrontational approach” to enforcing its new rules. It “will treat law-abiding customers with respect.”

Tom Gresham, the host of “Gun Talk,” a nationally syndicated radio show, says he will personally stop shopping at Walmart and that many of his listeners have told him they’ll do the same.

“The gun owners of America are not fooled,” he said. “Walmart has staked out its position in the culture wars, and we, the 100 million gun owners who don’t commit crimes, are like, wait a minute, you just threw us under the bus.”

Gresham, who has been carrying a concealed weapon for more than 25 years, says he hardly sees anybody openly carrying weapons near New Orleans, where he lives. “I probably have seen one person open-carrying this year,” he said. “But I know thousands of people who conceal-carry every day.”

Walmart’s new policy prohibiting open carry, he says, doesn’t affect him. But the way he sees it, “these companies are doing nothing other than trying to show that they’re one of the cool kids.”

And although he’s carried around a firearm for at least 25 years, Gresham says it’s not something he likes to advertise.

“Getting away and being a good witness is often the best course of action,” he said. “If nobody knows I’m carrying a gun, it gives me an opportunity to do that.”

While I am all for boycotting businesses to make a point, the amount of whining these guys do makes them seem like they are charter members (heh) of the micro-phallus club.

[Ozlsn]

Not sure if this was posted earlier but teaching 6th graders to tackle active shooters feels really off to me.

Spoiler

All around the country, students are instructed to, "Run, Hide, and Fight," if a mass shooter enters their school. Most schools emphasize the first two, but kids at Pinnacle Charter School outside of Denver are getting training on the "fight" portion of the directive.

Students at the school joined together with teachers in the gymnasium where they learned how to rush and tackle an armed shooter. In a Denver 7 video of the training, a simulated shooter roamed the gym floor waving around an orange water gun while teachers rushed him and middle schoolers used their body weight to pin him down. Small hordes of middle school children can be seen dogpiling on top of the shooter. In addition to self-defense, students learned how to barricade classroom doors and perform CPR. The training was conducted by an active shooter preparedness training group called Tac*One Consulting.

In an interview with Denver 7, Luis Marquez, a seventh-grade student at Pinnacle said he was in favor of the drill given the climate of fear surrounding shootings at schools.

"I think it's good but also sad that we have to learn this just because of society and how crazy it is," Marquez said.

Pinnacle Charter Schools did not immediately respond to Insider's request for comment.

Students are choosing to fight back

This willingness to engage with an attacker comes after two shootings at different schools earlier this year where students died while confronting armed gunmen. One of those cases occurred in early May when 21-year-old Riley Howell, a University of North Carolina college student, tackled a gunman who had entered her class.

The other occurred that same month, not far from Pinnacle charter school, atSTEM School in Highland Ranch. In that case, 18-year-old Kendrick Castillopinned a shooter against a classroom room while other students joined in and wrestled the firearm out of his hand. In both cases, it's believed the actions of the slain students saved lives.

Tac*One Consulting

Tac*One Consulting, a private company that spearheaded the drills, has taught similar courses at schools in Wyoming and Arizona. Tac*One's owner, Joe Deedon, told Insider that kids are "the missing link" in school safety. While police, paramedics, and teachers have been learning how to respond to school shooters for years, the kids themselves have largely been left out of the equation, Deedon said. Deedon's drills, which he said were explained to parents in detail beforehand, were broken up into separate sections for kindergarteners through second graders, third to fifth graders, sixth to eighth-graders, and finally high schoolers.

Even at the kindergarten level, Deedon said, children are already aware of shootings. Deedon said he and his fellow instructors would enter classrooms and ask the children why he was there. Some of the five-year-olds, Deedon remembered, responded: "so we don't get shot." The drills vary depending on age, with the youngest children instructed simply to hide and stay quiet in the event of an active shooter. Slightly older elementary school children learned how to use desk and chairs to barricade doors with "the teacher serving as the quarterback."

It's only in middle school years that Deedon teaches students to potentially confront a shooter. For those situations, teachers are supposed to take the lead, charge the gunman, and then call on the pre-teens for help. The kids are instructed to "bear hug" each of shooter's limbs and apply their full body weight to essentially pin the shooter to the ground until help arrives.

"The only way you're really going to prepare them is to do those drills," Deedon said. "If they don't experience it in these simulated environments under a little bit of stress, you don't know how they are going to react under the critical stress of the real event. The reality is, you don't know how people are going to react until it [a shooting] actually happens."

High schoolers, the oldest group Deedon instructs, are given more autonomy and are taught basic hand to hand self-defense. Much of the training for these students, Deedon said, was inspired by the shooting at Margery Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida last year. In that case, Deedon argues, most students were only ever taught to shelter in place or lockdown. Rather than wait in the classroom, Deedon instructs high schoolers how to safely escape a building if they get separated from their teachers. When escape isn't an option, the high schoolers are taught to fight back.

The Tac*One drill teaches high schoolers to get up close to the shooter to try and "control the firearm" and then use their body weight to bring a shooter down to the ground.

"It's nothing that's based on fine motor skills or martial arts," Deedon said. They are easy simple things kids can remember."

Chad Miller, Pinnacle Charter School's CEO, told insider the lessons learned from the STEM school shooting played a major factor in deciding to bring in Tac*One.

"Now knowing that they [students] are going to respond, I'd rather have them know how to respond than have utter chaos," Miller said of the reasoning behind teaching kids to fight back. "I always dissect the incident and see how would we respond."

While STEM High School and University of North Carolina examples have led some to reevaluate the teaching students to fight back, not everyone agrees with encouraging young people to take on a gunman. In an interview after the STEM shooting with NBC News, Yale University psychology professor B.J. Casey explained how adolescent brains may not react properly when under intense stress. Young people are much more likely to act impulsively, Casey said, and armed with combat training, they may needlessly throw themselves into harm's way.

Others, like National School Safety Security Services president Ken Trump, worry encouraging students to fight back may inevitably breed "a generation of martyrs." In an interview with CNN, Trump said young students aren't cognitively ready to make these life or death decisions on their own and thought schools should stick to more traditional lockdown drills.

Miller said the school still teaches more traditional lockdown procedures but added that sometimes it's not enough to only rely on locking doors and shutting off lights. When asked about the possibility of traumatizing students with hyper-realistic shooter drills, Miller said the school tried to account for this by offering counselors on sight during the drill. Parents of students and the students themselves could choose to opt-out, but few did according to Miller. The school had worked with Tac*One for the past eight years to train teachers and students how to lock doors and remain quiet if a shooter was present but felt it was time to take the drilling to the next level.

In an interview with The Denver Post, the president of Pinnacle's school board, Clarissa Burklund said the training was necessary.

"I hate that they [the students] live in this society," Burklund told The Denver Post. "But they do, and there's no point in denying it."

When asked if he worries these drills could have the effect of normalizing shootings in the students' minds, Deedon, the Tac*One owner said we, as a society, are already there.

"You can put in place all security you want and try and pass any number of legislations but the thing that we can literally do overnight is give every individual various options and build their confidence," Deedon said. "I guarantee you in ten years this will be mainstream."

[laPapessaGiovanna]

5 minutes ago, Ozlsn said:

Not sure if this was posted earlier but teaching 6th graders to tackle active shooters feels really off to me.

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All around the country, students are instructed to, "Run, Hide, and Fight," if a mass shooter enters their school. Most schools emphasize the first two, but kids at Pinnacle Charter School outside of Denver are getting training on the "fight" portion of the directive.

Students at the school joined together with teachers in the gymnasium where they learned how to rush and tackle an armed shooter. In a Denver 7 video of the training, a simulated shooter roamed the gym floor waving around an orange water gun while teachers rushed him and middle schoolers used their body weight to pin him down. Small hordes of middle school children can be seen dogpiling on top of the shooter. In addition to self-defense, students learned how to barricade classroom doors and perform CPR. The training was conducted by an active shooter preparedness training group called Tac*One Consulting.

In an interview with Denver 7, Luis Marquez, a seventh-grade student at Pinnacle said he was in favor of the drill given the climate of fear surrounding shootings at schools.

"I think it's good but also sad that we have to learn this just because of society and how crazy it is," Marquez said.

Pinnacle Charter Schools did not immediately respond to Insider's request for comment.

Students are choosing to fight back

This willingness to engage with an attacker comes after two shootings at different schools earlier this year where students died while confronting armed gunmen. One of those cases occurred in early May when 21-year-old Riley Howell, a University of North Carolina college student, tackled a gunman who had entered her class.

The other occurred that same month, not far from Pinnacle charter school, atSTEM School in Highland Ranch. In that case, 18-year-old Kendrick Castillopinned a shooter against a classroom room while other students joined in and wrestled the firearm out of his hand. In both cases, it's believed the actions of the slain students saved lives.

Tac*One Consulting

Tac*One Consulting, a private company that spearheaded the drills, has taught similar courses at schools in Wyoming and Arizona. Tac*One's owner, Joe Deedon, told Insider that kids are "the missing link" in school safety. While police, paramedics, and teachers have been learning how to respond to school shooters for years, the kids themselves have largely been left out of the equation, Deedon said. Deedon's drills, which he said were explained to parents in detail beforehand, were broken up into separate sections for kindergarteners through second graders, third to fifth graders, sixth to eighth-graders, and finally high schoolers.

Even at the kindergarten level, Deedon said, children are already aware of shootings. Deedon said he and his fellow instructors would enter classrooms and ask the children why he was there. Some of the five-year-olds, Deedon remembered, responded: "so we don't get shot." The drills vary depending on age, with the youngest children instructed simply to hide and stay quiet in the event of an active shooter. Slightly older elementary school children learned how to use desk and chairs to barricade doors with "the teacher serving as the quarterback."

It's only in middle school years that Deedon teaches students to potentially confront a shooter. For those situations, teachers are supposed to take the lead, charge the gunman, and then call on the pre-teens for help. The kids are instructed to "bear hug" each of shooter's limbs and apply their full body weight to essentially pin the shooter to the ground until help arrives.

"The only way you're really going to prepare them is to do those drills," Deedon said. "If they don't experience it in these simulated environments under a little bit of stress, you don't know how they are going to react under the critical stress of the real event. The reality is, you don't know how people are going to react until it [a shooting] actually happens."

High schoolers, the oldest group Deedon instructs, are given more autonomy and are taught basic hand to hand self-defense. Much of the training for these students, Deedon said, was inspired by the shooting at Margery Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida last year. In that case, Deedon argues, most students were only ever taught to shelter in place or lockdown. Rather than wait in the classroom, Deedon instructs high schoolers how to safely escape a building if they get separated from their teachers. When escape isn't an option, the high schoolers are taught to fight back.

The Tac*One drill teaches high schoolers to get up close to the shooter to try and "control the firearm" and then use their body weight to bring a shooter down to the ground.

"It's nothing that's based on fine motor skills or martial arts," Deedon said. They are easy simple things kids can remember."

Chad Miller, Pinnacle Charter School's CEO, told insider the lessons learned from the STEM school shooting played a major factor in deciding to bring in Tac*One.

"Now knowing that they [students] are going to respond, I'd rather have them know how to respond than have utter chaos," Miller said of the reasoning behind teaching kids to fight back. "I always dissect the incident and see how would we respond."

While STEM High School and University of North Carolina examples have led some to reevaluate the teaching students to fight back, not everyone agrees with encouraging young people to take on a gunman. In an interview after the STEM shooting with NBC News, Yale University psychology professor B.J. Casey explained how adolescent brains may not react properly when under intense stress. Young people are much more likely to act impulsively, Casey said, and armed with combat training, they may needlessly throw themselves into harm's way.

Others, like National School Safety Security Services president Ken Trump, worry encouraging students to fight back may inevitably breed "a generation of martyrs." In an interview with CNN, Trump said young students aren't cognitively ready to make these life or death decisions on their own and thought schools should stick to more traditional lockdown drills.

Miller said the school still teaches more traditional lockdown procedures but added that sometimes it's not enough to only rely on locking doors and shutting off lights. When asked about the possibility of traumatizing students with hyper-realistic shooter drills, Miller said the school tried to account for this by offering counselors on sight during the drill. Parents of students and the students themselves could choose to opt-out, but few did according to Miller. The school had worked with Tac*One for the past eight years to train teachers and students how to lock doors and remain quiet if a shooter was present but felt it was time to take the drilling to the next level.

In an interview with The Denver Post, the president of Pinnacle's school board, Clarissa Burklund said the training was necessary.

"I hate that they [the students] live in this society," Burklund told The Denver Post. "But they do, and there's no point in denying it."

When asked if he worries these drills could have the effect of normalizing shootings in the students' minds, Deedon, the Tac*One owner said we, as a society, are already there.

"You can put in place all security you want and try and pass any number of legislations but the thing that we can literally do overnight is give every individual various options and build their confidence," Deedon said. "I guarantee you in ten years this will be mainstream."

 

I feel sick. No middle schooler should train and feel responsible for tackling and wrestling a shooter armed with an assault weapon. Like children in the military. This is beyond crazy. This is criminal. A criminal state that doesn't want to guarantee safety to its citizens delegates to children police duties. Great.