Josiah Duggar Part 6: Now Officially Engaged!

[HereticHick]

21 minutes ago, JeanieCat said:

Truly Gothard missed a big opportunity! He could have had a fundie matchmaking service and performed mass wedding ceremonies at Big Sandy! Of course, there might not be as many wedding gifts, but they could have a communal potluck!

Maybe for once everyone would get a full  wedding meal!! (of course they have to contribute a dish to it)

[QuiverFullofBooks]

I think they realize that would be just a little too cult-y. Also, any family and friends who weren’t at the conference couldn’t attend, or would have to tag along to the conference, where the truth about the cult might dawn on them.

[metheglyn]

Besides, how could they all be in each others' wedding parties if they have shared wedding services? After all, in some cases multiple siblings marry in a given year and if they did one mass wedding at each year's Family Conference, there's be a whole lot of overlap. And nowhere near enough room for all of each wedding party that *didn't* overlap! 

Yes, I know some fundie families have double weddings (ex. the Bontrager double wedding + extra the next day), but overall I suspect that mass weddings also wouldn't fly with many of these fundie families because they seem to see the wedding days as the ONE day each bride gets to be the center of attention before it's all about the kids.

It does make me think about the Moonie mass weddings though, haha. Some of these pairings almost do seem this crazy.

 

[nolongerIFBx]

On 3/13/2018 at 3:43 PM, viii said:

Ha, I grew up without a TV at all, so I missed ALL the classics. 

We didn't get a TV until I was almost eighteen and our family finally broke free from the cult I had been raised in. 

Ditto- I was 20 when we purchased a TV which we hadn't had in the house since I was in kindergarten.

[Glasgowghirl]

20 hours ago, nolongerIFBx said:

Ditto- I was 20 when we purchased a TV which we hadn't had in the house since I was in kindergarten.

I felt deprived because we didn't get cable until I was almost 18, we had 4 then 5 channels. I now understand why my parents refused to get cable because instead of going out to play after the kids shows were finished and we had less distractions when it came to homework.

I wasn't banned from watching anything, Mum and Dad though did get mad when my sister and I watched trainspotting, my brother had the uncut edition on VHS and we sneaked it out his room and watched it. I was only 10 so I can see why she would be angry.

My parents were not strict about a lot of stuff, so when they did say no I respected them more. My friend's parents were too strict all it did was make her do more behind their backs, she lied a few times about staying with friends when she would be going to parties further away. My mum and dad stopped giving me a time be home at weekends when turned 16, I rarely stayed out even though I was allowed too. My mum hated the fact she had to be home earlier than all her friends and felt she was at more risk of harm walking home alone.

[SapphireSlytherin]

OMG, @Glasgowghirl! Trainspotting is one of the most upsetting movies I've ever seen. Yet I couldn't stop watching it.

 

[takers401]

On 3/14/2018 at 2:59 PM, metheglyn said:

snip...

It does make me think about the Moonie mass weddings though, haha. Some of these pairings almost do seem this crazy.

 

Wow. Thanks for the link. That was...I don't even know how to describe it. I don't know if I want to wish the couples the best of luck or start googling the divorce rate of this group.

[neurogirl]

There are a series of books about Caroline as a kid, and Laura’s grandma and even great-grandma I think. I read them as a child so couldn’t hope to tell you what they were now, but they were good. I liked the Caroline stories better than LIW. We had all the Laura Ingalls books growing up because my mom is from South Dakota and is a huge fan. We even slept in one of the House-recreations in DeSmet. 

Found them! https://www.amazon.com/Little-Clearing-Woods-House-Caroline/dp/0064406520

Less fun story about my mom- sophomore year of college I was struggling pretty hard with restrictive eating and though I wasn’t underweight, I had lost weight off my normal frame and was a miserable mess. Well my mom came to visit and at the end of the weekend I gathered up my courage to finally tell her I was struggling. “Mom, I have to tell you something.” “You’re pregnant!” It was not a question. She had assumed because I was so “pale and sickly looking and acting-off that weekend.” It crushed me. I was still a virgin and oh yeah not really eating so then of course I got super self conscious and lost more weight. And my parents never really did get it. 

My parents also tried to keep me to a bedtime (not curfew, bedtime) of 10pm in high school, which only was broken because I was literally up doing homework until 1130 or later every night. I had to “give a fashion show” in front of my dad when I got new clothes (even if I got the clothes with my mom), do the finger length test and turn around and bend down to make sure the clothes were modest enough. I was only alone in my house at bedtime or doing homework, and even then my mom would ask mopely why I wasn’t hanging out with her. I was also that kid that got picked up from sleepovers before anyone else was awake because I had to get my ass to church, and my family was not even fundie! Not as extreme as many posters here but I did get weird looks talking about my family to friends and while I didn’t rebel, my relationship with my parents was shit in high school and college because I just wanted them to be proud of me but they couldn’t stop being authoritarian parents. 

(And also if you are image-conscious perfectionist parents employed in fields that focus on healthy bodies and you police your child’s every action, are critical of their appearance, and don’t allow them to have feelings or agency inside your home...well they’re likely to end up with eating/self esteem issues. So don’t act offended and surprised if it happens. ANYWAY sorry for that unexpected rant and thank God for free college therapists.)

(One more thing. I feel I need to add that my parents and I did have a therapist-guided "come to Jesus" meeting where I basically said if you don't let me be an adult you're going to lose me. And thank Rufus they really have made an effort. Even though there are some emotional scars, my mom and I are very close now. So I guess thank God for parents who can change in the end.)

[Cleopatra7]

This is an interesting video about the experiences of second generation Moonie millennials as they prepare to get mass married in Seoul:

While some of the couples at least had some months to get to know each other, it seems like many just meet their spouses for the first time at the ceremony. In some cases, the couple don’t even have a common language in which to communicate. Theoretically, this shouldn’t be an issue, because Unificationism teaches that any godly man can make a marriage work with a godly woman and vice versa like Gothardism. I imagine that divorce is discouraged within the group, so couples  either have to learn foreign languages or just have to find other ways of communicating besides spoken or written language.

[Rachel333]

I was surprised to learn that there's a Moonies offshoot church in Pennsylvania. They recently had a marriage blessing ceremony where they asked couples to bring AR-15s.

[neurogirl]

I watched the entire documentary just now and read about the Pennsylvania Moonies too. The Pennsylvania Moonies above are apparently an offshoot church and the "mainstream" Unification Church would be against it. The Moonies are about world peace, and encourage couples who come from different countries and backgrounds to match as "you can love any child of God." That part actually sounds kind of fine if you are comfortable with arranged marriage (though I am not). It's the part where their leader was the Messiah and fulfilling Jesus' failed mission that gets super weird. Super interesting though. Totally forgot to clean for my tea party because I was watching it  

[SapphireSlytherin]

I'm reading Caroline right now - it seems that the author tried to emulate Laura's (Rose's?) writing style, so I'm struggling a bit with it.

 

 

[CarrotCake]

On 16-3-2018 at 7:14 PM, Glasgowghirl said:

I wasn't banned from watching anything, Mum and Dad though did get mad when my sister and I watched trainspotting, my brother had the uncut edition on VHS and we sneaked it out his room and watched it. I was only 10 so I can see why she would be angry.

When I was 10 I watched Scream 2 at a friends house. I had nightmares for weeks and my parents got really angry with my friends parents. I remember her dad thought it was funny to let us watch and my friend also thought it was a funny movie while I just in complete shock.

[Kangaroo]

OMG. I'd never heard of this Unification Church before now so I decided to read a quick overview on Wikipedia.

Anyway to keep a long story short, back in my first year at University I was approached by a Korean man while I was sitting near the river on campus. The summary is it sounded really wierd, but I was alone and didn't want to be rude (lol), so I gave him a fake email so he could send me the church details, and said I had to go to class. 

ButI distinctly remember him talking about someone called Moon. Knowing that's now a guy and not worshiping the mass in space is good to know.

Good to know I didn't end up marrying a guy I didn't know who couldn't speak the same language in a mass Korean wedding though is a nice end to this story 6 years later!

[SweetJuly]

PART 1

Sorry for the long post, I thought I'd give a bit of an insight into the Unification Church and their approach to marriage/weddings 

A good childhood friend of mine is part of the Unification Church. Her parents are from two different European countries, and she has an above-average number of siblings, but not even close to 10. Most families within the church are of mixed nationalities/ethnicities, and have a reasonable number of children.

Apparently in the early days (when her parents joined), single members would be assembled in one big room and the leader (Mr Moon) would point to one man and one woman, and then they would be matched and expected to marry. However, it's not like they were expected to immediately jump into bed together, but the idea was that after the wedding ("blessing") they'd spend some time getting to know each other and only after a while, once they felt comfortable with one another, start what was called "family life".

My friend told me that the goal was especially to bring together people from former "enemy" countries (i.e. Japan/Korea and the US, Germany and all of Europe, etc.) The idea is indeed that you are supposed to be able to love anyone, and that through international and interracial marriages world peace will be advanced.

Nowadays there is only very few people who decide to be matched to complete strangers. From what I understand, allowing yourself to be matched to an unknown person gives some sort of bonus points within the church. Probably in the way that the courting fundies who don't even hold hands feel like they're even holier than all the other virgins-unti-marriage in their circle. Or maybe it's even more significant. You definitely receive special treatment at the mass wedding ("blessing") if you decide to go that route, so I guess it's a big deal.

Most marriages within the church are nowadays arranged by or with help of the parents, or follow a bit more the "I met this person at a retreat/church activity and would be interested in getting to know him/her"-path.

PART 2

Anyway, so back to my friend.

In her early 20s, she decided to let herself to be matched blind.

The first guy she was matched with - he was Asian, not sure if Korean or Japanese - apparently refused the match because he did not want a non-Asian wife.

The second guy she was matched with was from the US. They had the religious blessing and then a legal marriage. However, it didn't go very well. She found him physically unattractive, and from what I know, they never did anything more beyond kissing due to that. I believe there may have also been personality differences. After all, if you get married to a completely random person, chances are not great that you'll really connect very well. - They eventually divorced after 2 years.

I have the feeling that she then went through a rather difficult time. I am not sure if her family made her feel like a failure or if she herself was beating herself up for her marriage not working out. Plus, she was then in her late 20s and, as among fundies, the second generation Unification church members tend to get married young, so there weren't many eligible men left for her.

[SweetJuly]

I keep trying to add the 3rd part, but it won't let me

Is there a limitation on how much I can post in a certain time?

[habert]

Omg ive never heard of the monies. That’s terrifying! What a great place for women to become trapped in potentially life threatening and abusive situations. Unbelievable, I hope the poor couple that didn’t speak each other’s languages have found some sort of peace somehow with their families if they’ve gone their separate ways or if they’re trying to make the marriage work. Wow. 

[AprilQuilt]

On 3/13/2018 at 10:59 PM, viii said:

the worst was when my parents read my diary. I had detailed in there about my crush and what I hoped would happen between us, and my parents found my diary, read it, and then sat me down to discuss it. I still feel sick when I think about it. 

My mother did this. I think she genuinely felt that my privacy and boundaries had no real weight; they were something she had a right to override, and she did, regularly. I'm 30 now and I only recently realised that I just. do. not. trust her. I love her and I even like her, but I try never to expose any vulnerability to her. It always comes back to bite me when I do.

I think a lot of what she did was because she was a flawed human being, like all of us. Perhaps there is no helping the way you parent when you're in the midst of it. I really hope I can do better for my kids, though.

[samurai_sarah]

2 hours ago, SweetJuly said:

I keep trying to add the 3rd part, but it won't let me

Is there a limitation on how much I can post in a certain time?

*Mod hat on* If you're trying to add a third part to your original post, the issue may be that the window for editing has elapsed. If you write two different posts in short succession of each other i.e.: within the editing window, the system automatically merges them into one post. Other than that there are no limitations that I know of. Hope that helps!

*Mod hat off*

 

[habert]

I'm working from home and have been reading and watching things on the Unification Church all morning! How on earth did Sun Myung Moon gain so many global followers so fast? I seriously can not find any information about that. So many people dropped everything to follow one man, who is from a relatively non-traditional Christian background and relatively isolated culture. Obviously, cults are about dropping everything for leaders, but he did it so quickly with such huge numbers ALL OVER THE GLOBE, seemingly by himself!! How do you convince people from 50 different countries to drop everything and marry strangers in a number of years? I am huge into learning about cults and I have no idea how this one has escaped me for so long. Does he have a master cult hand book? I am so intrigued.

[samurai_sarah]

1 hour ago, habert said:

I'm working from home and have been reading and watching things on the Unification Church all morning! How on earth did Sun Myung Moon gain so many global followers so fast? I seriously can not find any information about that. So many people dropped everything to follow one man, who is from a relatively non-traditional Christian background and relatively isolated culture. Obviously, cults are about dropping everything for leaders, but he did it so quickly with such huge numbers ALL OVER THE GLOBE, seemingly by himself!! How do you convince people from 50 different countries to drop everything and marry strangers in a number of years? I am huge into learning about cults and I have no idea how this one has escaped me for so long. Does he have a master cult hand book? I am so intrigued.

I'm not sure and far from an expert -I'm recent into looking into the moonies. But one of the reasons he might have been able to expand so rapidly was because he started his church during the Korea War (1950-1953) aka "The Forgotten War".

Spoiler

I see several factors that might have helped. Basically, this war started five years after WW2. People all over the world were tired, but there they went again, and everyone was at it again. Christian churches- mainly from the US, but also from other countries- were trying to gain a foothold in Korea, and were doing quite well. If you want, you could say it was a spiritual weapons' race between the West and East. Religion vs Atheism, on top of everything else that was going on.

And then, there was the looming presence of nuclear warfare. Hiroshima and Nagasaki had just happened a few years ago, WW2 was just a few years back, people were suffering the aftermath of war everywhere. Colonialism was breaking down, sometimes violent, sometimes peacefully. It was a time of terrible uncertainty, in which even "certain" things were breaking down. For example: Algeria had always seemed a sure thing for the French. Indonesia had seemed a sure thing for the Dutch. But suddenly people weren't having it anymore.

In a time like this, Moon preached world peace. And he was quite well-placed with his message. Local Korean issues played into it. His church preached international marriage. International marriage was extremely frowned upon in Korea at the time, but he offered people a safe haven, where they were not only accepted but celebrated. They were the world's new hope! Their children would ensure that none of this would ever happen again!

What Moon also did was to reach out to other religious leaders for an "Interreligious and International Federation for World Peace". Quote: "Just as we cannot put on new clothes without taking off old ones, so we cannot see the new world as long as we have old concepts". In his way, he was revolutionary and tapped into the spirit of the 1960s and 1970s! He addressed himself to the war-weary generations all over the world, and promised a better world, in which no one would have to be afraid of a nuclear catastrophe. 

Because we could all do something: Marry internationally. If only everyone married a former enemy, we could sort this out at a grass-roots level! We were all going to be one great mix and family - the latter makes me doubt that Moon has ever been to a family reunion, but in theory it sounds quite good.

I have come to the conclusion that the Moonies are very much a product of their time, who tried to achieve their means in ways that were individually harmful, when they felt they were trying to outrun the Cold War. To my mind, they are very much a response to issues that were in everyone's mind at the time, which helped their popularity.

And I don't like them. I've told this story before on FJ, and a fellow FJer told me that it was the Moonies who targeted me. White Mr samurai_sarah and biracial Asian me were shopping for cream cheese, when a white lady thrust a leaflet into my hands inviting me to the "Universal Peace Federation". I'm a pacifist, but after reading the leaflet, I found it all objectionable. A fellow FJer pointed out that I had been targeted by the Moonies, and then it made sense.

There is so much more. I haven't even started on the arranged marriages from a personal Korean perspective, but I'll leave it at that right now, instead of writing another novel.

 

 

[Lurker]

The very conservative/right wing newspaper The Washington Times is 100% owned by the moonies.

[habert]

3 minutes ago, Lurker said:

The very conservative/right wing newspaper The Washington Times is 100% owned by the moonies.

Holy shit you're right. It's even right there on the wikipedia page. 

[SapphireSlytherin]

5 minutes ago, Lurker said:

The very conservative/right wing newspaper The Washington Times is 100% owned by the moonies.

I.am.gobsmacked.

(not implying I'm @Gobsmacked)

[libgirl2]

On 3/17/2018 at 8:57 PM, SapphireSlytherin said:

I'm reading Caroline right now - it seems that the author tried to emulate Laura's (Rose's?) writing style, so I'm struggling a bit with it.

 

 

I didn't care for it and gave up.