"Niddah"--the 12-days-of-no-touching thing

[ilovetchotchkes]

I'm not Orthodox. There's no way, no how that I'm showing my underwear to ANYONE, nor do I use bedika (sp?) cloths. Apparently you have to get them at an Orthodox mikveh and the one I use is Conservative. I 99.99999% of the time only bleed for 4.5 days, so yeah... Apparently its 100% anonymous, but still. STILL, NO WAY. That's one of my arguments that ALL branches of Judaism should have female rabbis. If I were in a position to do so, i'd rather show said undergarments to a woman rather than a man.

As strange as it sounds, its actually helped my marriage. I won't go into it, but for us? it works. Most of my other Jewish friends don't practice it and I don't care one way or another. Another person's practice of their religion, any religion is none of my beeswax unless its hurting others *coughLinacough*. But it works for us so we'll keep doing it.

Some women go to the mikeveh yearly for Yom Kippor. Or once just before their wedding. I started going after my son was born. I went when I was pregnant and it just felt... right.

How it has been explained to me, is that use of it delineates a mark in time. Such as when someone converts, gets married, before or after a baby is born, the new year etc.

For the monthly thing for me, i see it as a monthly rebirth. Yes I didn't get pregnant this month (we're desperately trying for #2 ) but I might this month, last month is past and forget about my "failure" to conceive and think about the possibility that I might. Obviously this has nothing to do with the actual Jewish law, but how I'm dealing with a particularly difficult time in my life right now. And it helps, for some weird reason, its comforting.

[FaustianSlip]

I went to a Conservative mikvah for my conversion, and my experience was really positive. The mikvah attendant made it a point to say that they welcome people coming back to use the mikvah for he purposes of family purity or to mark other special occasions or life changes. I've been toying with the idea of going back after I'm finished in China as a sort of, "Okay, that phase is over, onto the next one," kind of thing. I didn't ask about bedika cloths or anything like that, because I'm not married, so they're of no use to me at the moment.

I can't imagine what my rabbi's reaction would be if I rolled up in his office with a pair of underwear to ask him whether I could resume marital relations. I think he'd freak out. I don't know anyone who observe niddah who's running to their rabbi every month for him to check things, but I've never asked them a ton of questions about it, either.

[ilovetchotchkes]

I went to a Conservative mikvah for my conversion, and my experience was really positive. The mikvah attendant made it a point to say that they welcome people coming back to use the mikvah for he purposes of family purity or to mark other special occasions or life changes. I've been toying with the idea of going back after I'm finished in China as a sort of, "Okay, that phase is over, onto the next one," kind of thing. I didn't ask about bedika cloths or anything like that, because I'm not married, so they're of no use to me at the moment.

I can't imagine what my rabbi's reaction would be if I rolled up in his office with a pair of underwear to ask him whether I could resume marital relations. I think he'd freak out. I don't know anyone who observe niddah who's running to their rabbi every month for him to check things, but I've never asked them a ton of questions about it, either.

My rabbi would probably laugh himself out of his chair and say its none of his business....

[apple1]

Being on your period increases the chance of receiving or transmitting diseases. Interesting discussion here http://std.about.com/od/riskfactorsfors ... D-Risk.htm

Very poor reference.

[prairiemuffin]

Somewhat off topic, but I found this book absolutely fascinating and completely engrossing:

http://www.amazon.com/Red-Tent-Novel-An ... 768&sr=1-1

[LynnKaboom]

Very poor reference.

Do you have any rebuttal references, then? It's not all that convincing when someone has a citation, even if it's a poor one, and the other person goes "nope" but doesn't have any counter-references.

[emmiedahl]

Very poor reference.

It references several legitimate studies in the footnotes. Do I really need to reprint them? You saw them since you obviously went there.

[apple1]

It references several legitimate studies in the footnotes. Do I really need to reprint them? You saw them since you obviously went there.

Direct cut-and-paste of your own link:

"In the end, the data on period sex and STD risk isn't all that clear. While self-reported data does suggest that period sex is associated with an increased risk of STDs, more rigorous studies have not found as clear-cut results."

The article also contains disclaimer phrases such as "plausible but not proven".

The article also states that rigorous studies have not be done and are not likely to be done. Maybe for the same reasons that reliable sources like the CDC don't have this on their sites.

As for the references at the end of the article, for all we know, the actual articles may refute, not support. Since we don't have them, we don't know.

It is also fact that every STD that can be blood-borne is also borne in semen and vaginal secretions.

[Confused_by_religion]

Does anybody know how common the practice of showing these bedika cloths to one's rabbi is? Is this something that's done on the outer orthodox fringe, or is it more mainstream? I've never heard of it, it freaks me out and I don't see why the woman just can't decide for herself. I mean, SHE experiences her whole menstrual cycle every month! It can't be so hard for her do judge or for a rabbi to teach her when her period is over. They could just give out little cards with sample pictures (like paint samples) for women to compare their bedika cloths to and save themselves a lot of bother (and the woman a lot of embarrassment).

[longskirts]

Showing to a rabbi happens in all of Orthodox Judaism, not just the fringes. Left-wing Orthodox sometimes give women the option to show their underwear to an expert woman rather than a rabbi.

[emmiedahl]

Direct cut-and-paste of your own link:

"In the end, the data on period sex and STD risk isn't all that clear. While self-reported data does suggest that period sex is associated with an increased risk of STDs, more rigorous studies have not found as clear-cut results."

The article also contains disclaimer phrases such as "plausible but not proven".

The article also states that rigorous studies have not be done and are not likely to be done. Maybe for the same reasons that reliable sources like the CDC don't have this on their sites.

As for the references at the end of the article, for all we know, the actual articles may refute, not support. Since we don't have them, we don't know.

It is also fact that every STD that can be blood-borne is also borne in semen and vaginal secretions.

I referenced that website because it addressed all of the issues that contribute to a higher rate of infection during the menstrual cycle.

I agree that rigorous studies have not been done. Right now all indications are that you are more likely to transmit or receive a disease during your menstrual period but nothing has been conclusively proven. The studies at the bottom of the page are all very easy to Google if you want to read them in entirety. I'm sorry if this is distressing to you in some way. :?:

[apple1]

I'm sorry if this is distressing to you in some way. :?:

Huh?

[emmiedahl]

I meant: you seem really into this argument and I am perplexed. I'm not feeling all emotionally invested in this, so prove me wrong and I'll be all, oh, I was wrong. (shrug)

[Confused_by_religion]

Showing to a rabbi happens in all of Orthodox Judaism, not just the fringes. Left-wing Orthodox sometimes give women the option to show their underwear to an expert woman rather than a rabbi.

Thanks for clarifying this. The idea that every day, thousands of women show bits of their period to someone else...boggles them mind. Wow.

I'd rather go with the paint samples, though. :lol:

[LynnKaboom]

Yeah, you are kind of reacting disproportionately, or at least you're very invested in it. I don't really get it. I just wondered if what I had heard was true, and it does seem to make some sense, so I was wondering if it was true.

[Dena]

When I ran in the Orthodox circles for a few years there were couples I never saw touch each other ever, and that was quite common. You don't announce to the world when you are niddah, so...

They say part of it is that you are getting a mini honeymoon every month. And for most women when it ends and you go to mikva you are also most likely to get knocked up so it helps build up big families too!

There are whole books written about the rules of Niddah. There is a lot to it. But yes, there are rabbi's that check undies. Most tend to rule in the way for the couple to do the deed, you know in the case of a women who's cycle is all wacked.

[bionicmlle]

regarding STDs -- There is most certainly an increase in transmission of HIV from woman to man during menstrual cycle - while transmission from woman to man is RARE, it is much MORE likely when there is blood involved in any sexual encounter. As far as monogamous couples are concerned, there really is no problem, physiologically, with sex during menstruation.

I read quite a bit about mikvah a couple of years ago after it was discussed on some tv show (I think Dr. Phil had on a jewish woman who mentioned it? something like that) and what really struck me was the intense legalism that seemed to accompany the decision when to/not to go to the mikvah. After reading some of your posts my perspective is certainly changed but it seems to me if women are going so far to avoid having to even question the issue (by ordering black pantiliners from Israel, for instance) the practice loses it's meaning.

I think the idea of regular rebirth or a ceremony to mark a special occasion is actually really beautiful (but don't worry, I"m not going to pretend to use the sprinkler puddles in my backyard or my bathtub as a makeshift mikvah and try to be a practicing FakeJew).

[Jewess]

I follow the laws of nidda, and for the most part I appreciate them, even though I love my husband. It definitely makes marriage more "spicy", and less "boring". When I'm pregnant or nursing with no period for many many months, I do find things get a little more "stale" in the bedroom than when we're going through the nidda/tahor cycles. Fortunately, my cycles are on the longer end so I don't find we're too limited.

I think with kids and household responsibilities and life its easy to get too busy and push off sex because "we can always do it tomorrow", but when you keep the laws of nidda and know that there is a time frame, you stop procrastinating and actually end up having more fun in the bedroom.

I'll admit that after birth and after miscarriages, nidda is less than fun, and can be quite challenging.

As for the purpose, etc... Its because in judaism, kedusha, holiness, is when you have something positive there, and when that holiness leaves, when you're with a lack, then you're tamei, ritually impure.

A life is kadosh/holy. When someone dies, the body and the home they're in and anyone else in the room at the time becomes tamei, ritually impure.

When someone has a baby, she at first has a life inside her, and when she no longer has that life inside her, that extra holiness leaves her, leaving tumah, spiritual impurity, in its void.

Same happens with a miscarriage. A life, no longer there, leaves spiritual impurity in its void.

And a menstrual cycle, a building up of the endometrium and the release of an egg in the hopes of fertilization is holy, because of the anticipation of new life. When there is no fertilization and the hopes of a new life are extinguished, you're left with another type of spiritual impurity of nidda.

Not because of blood being dirty or anything.

And you can totally keep nidda without bringing your undies or vaginal cloths to a rabbi ever. There are quite a large percentage of women who do this. Its just that some women err on the side of caution and may say that their period doesn't appear to be over, when halachically it is. So people who want to go to the mikva/ritual bath earlier sometimes bring their "bedikot", their "checking cloths" to a rabbi to determine if that is a color that means the period is over... but most people most of the time don't do this.

To be honest, I did this 2 times in my life. Both 5 or 6 weeks after birth when my bleeding didn't stop and I wanted to know if maybe what I thought was bleeding was actually kosher. One time it was, one time it wasn't. But no one forced me to, and I could have skipped it. But I just cared more about going to the mikva already than being embarassed about bringing a nidda cloth to a rabbi.

[NurseNell]

I follow the laws of nidda, and for the most part I appreciate them, even though I love my husband. It definitely makes marriage more "spicy", and less "boring". When I'm pregnant or nursing with no period for many many months.

What are the rules during and after pregnancy? And nursing? Can you have sex while nursing?

[Jewess]

What are the rules during and after pregnancy? And nursing? Can you have sex while nursing?

As long as you're not bleeding or within the 7 days after finishing to bleed, of course you can. Its months and months and months of no nidda periods. (Pun intended.)

[lexiloumarie]

I follow the laws of nidda, and for the most part I appreciate them, even though I love my husband. It definitely makes marriage more "spicy", and less "boring". When I'm pregnant or nursing with no period for many many months, I do find things get a little more "stale" in the bedroom than when we're going through the nidda/tahor cycles. Fortunately, my cycles are on the longer end so I don't find we're too limited.

I think with kids and household responsibilities and life its easy to get too busy and push off sex because "we can always do it tomorrow", but when you keep the laws of nidda and know that there is a time frame, you stop procrastinating and actually end up having more fun in the bedroom.

I'll admit that after birth and after miscarriages, nidda is less than fun, and can be quite challenging.

As for the purpose, etc... Its because in judaism, kedusha, holiness, is when you have something positive there, and when that holiness leaves, when you're with a lack, then you're tamei, ritually impure.

A life is kadosh/holy. When someone dies, the body and the home they're in and anyone else in the room at the time becomes tamei, ritually impure.

When someone has a baby, she at first has a life inside her, and when she no longer has that life inside her, that extra holiness leaves her, leaving tumah, spiritual impurity, in its void.

Same happens with a miscarriage. A life, no longer there, leaves spiritual impurity in its void.

And a menstrual cycle, a building up of the endometrium and the release of an egg in the hopes of fertilization is holy, because of the anticipation of new life. When there is no fertilization and the hopes of a new life are extinguished, you're left with another type of spiritual impurity of nidda.

Not because of blood being dirty or anything.

And you can totally keep nidda without bringing your undies or vaginal cloths to a rabbi ever. There are quite a large percentage of women who do this. Its just that some women err on the side of caution and may say that their period doesn't appear to be over, when halachically it is. So people who want to go to the mikva/ritual bath earlier sometimes bring their "bedikot", their "checking cloths" to a rabbi to determine if that is a color that means the period is over... but most people most of the time don't do this.

To be honest, I did this 2 times in my life. Both 5 or 6 weeks after birth when my bleeding didn't stop and I wanted to know if maybe what I thought was bleeding was actually kosher. One time it was, one time it wasn't. But no one forced me to, and I could have skipped it. But I just cared more about going to the mikva already than being embarassed about bringing a nidda cloth to a rabbi.

This is very interesting, thank you. My cousin follows taharat ha-mishpachah but is usually too modest to answer many questions outside of what I already know.

[Jewess]

Glad to share what I know with you.

[Katiebug]

I have a question - it is my understanding that a Jewish woman who observes these rules is considered ritually unclean for at least 7 days after giving birth to a boy and for at least 14 days following the birth of a girl. I don't know if this really works out as a practical difference, since I and every woman I know has had postpartum bleeding for more than 2 weeks and I believe the average is 4-5 weeks, so if a woman who recently gave birth has to wait a month or longer to start counting "clean" days to go to the mikvah then it's kind of a moot point! :lol: However the rule seems to be that at best having a girl forces the couple to wait twice as long before the wife can even start counting down to when she can touch her husband again. I'm just curious as to the rationale for the difference - is there a religious reason or is it just a holdover from when there was a preference for male children?

As a mainline Protestant I admit I struggle a bit with the concept of ritual impurity - for those of us from a Christian background, hearing that a person is "unclean" or "impure" can imply sinfulness or some sort of structural inferiority. I try not to interpret another religion's practices through my own biases, but it can be a challenge. Is there anything that can happen to a husband that would render the couple unable to touch or is it all on the wife?

[OrangeTulips]

Re: Birth of girls requiring at least 14 days of niddah and boys requiring only 7 days. My understanding is that it goes back to what Jewess was saying about how "cleanliness" (terrible translation!) relates to the ability to make life. So since a girl can also produce life, we count 7 days like for birth in general but also an extra 7 days in recognition of the girl baby's life-creating-ability. Wow that feels awkwardly written.

As for "paint samples" (LOL), I think everyone and every situation is too different. I'm not married, but it seems like a lot of rabbi/yoetzet halacha questions come from possible injuries. (The yoetzet halacha is the woman trained in these matters - not just for "left wing orthodox"!) For instance, you can get non-niddah bleeding from an injury during a gyno exam or as part of an infection. But it's true, many women go their whole lives without asking a rabbi. As for anonymity, many synagogues have a special box or something where you can drop the item (could be underwear, a bedika cloth, or a tampon (which can be used like a bedika cloth), and you just write down a phone number on the envelope. If your voicemail doesn't say your name, they may never know who it was.

But as I said, I'm not married. My knowledge is theoretical. But the not touching? Many people do with non-spouses at all times (shomer negiah, as Lina so helpfully explained). You get used to it, and I actually prefer it. The interesting side-effect: your nerves get really sensitive because you're not being desensitized to touch all the time. I shake hands, so that still feels the same, but the slightest touch somewhere else can give me shivers! Having previously lived with boyfriends, I can't wait to see how awesome things feel in comparison to pre-shomer negiah! I think that's a big part of the "spark" or "honeymoon" aspect to the laws of niddah.

Another good side-effect: you have to learn how to really communicate with your spouse. When you're niddah, you can't just distract yourself from the argument with angry sex. (Or non-angry sex, for that matter.) Sometimes it's so easy to try to end a conflict without actually resolving. A hug is a really good example. Studies on conflict resolution and body language are super interesting because it shows how touch can be a determinative thing sometimes. But in Judaism, it's a cerebral, legalistic religion, so why would we shy away any excuse for a good, logical argument with our spouse?? :P

But I fully admit, it all looks crazy from the outside. I think that's orthodox Judaism in general. But when you look at it as a whole and see how the system is so fully-integrated, it just makes so. much. sense. I became observant kind of by accident and was pretty down on orthodox Judaism before that. I can see how women see things as being sexist because I did too, but feminism has had many definitions, and it all depends on your perspective. Mine changed and I saw things in a new light instead of the secular American perspective, which I think it extremely sexist instead of empowering. But...that's life. We all have our own perspective, so we have to respect each other and accept our differences.

[Jewess]

I have a question - it is my understanding that a Jewish woman who observes these rules is considered ritually unclean for at least 7 days after giving birth to a boy and for at least 14 days following the birth of a girl. I don't know if this really works out as a practical difference, since I and every woman I know has had postpartum bleeding for more than 2 weeks and I believe the average is 4-5 weeks, so if a woman who recently gave birth has to wait a month or longer to start counting "clean" days to go to the mikvah then it's kind of a moot point! :lol: However the rule seems to be that at best having a girl forces the couple to wait twice as long before the wife can even start counting down to when she can touch her husband again. I'm just curious as to the rationale for the difference - is there a religious reason or is it just a holdover from when there was a preference for male children?

The difference, as Orange Tulips mention, is that because of the concept that holiness=life or potential life, because a girl has the ability to grow a new life inside of her, when she leaves the womb, the mom is losing the double holiness- both the life of the babe, and the life that the new babe has the potential to have, leaving her with a longer state of nidda, which in practicality makes no difference, because I don't know anyone who has bled for only one week or two post birth. More like 4-6 weeks on average.

As a mainline Protestant I admit I struggle a bit with the concept of ritual impurity - for those of us from a Christian background, hearing that a person is "unclean" or "impure" can imply sinfulness or some sort of structural inferiority. I try not to interpret another religion's practices through my own biases, but it can be a challenge.

Thats why Ortho Jews don't usually use the words "unclean" or "ritually impure", we use the words nidda and taharai, because any translation is inaccurate because it comes with connotations such as these.

Is there anything that can happen to a husband that would render the couple unable to touch or is it all on the wife?

At the moment, no.

However, there are two main concepts of tumah/tahara (ritual impurity and ritual purity). One is tumas(t) hameis(t) and tumas(t) nidda.

During the times of the temple, if anyone, male or female, was in contact with a dead person, that means either touching the dead person, or being under the same roof as the person when he or she died, the person would become tamei meis (t). He'd then go through a process of waiting 7 days, immersing in the mikva, and then become sprinkled with the ashes of the red heifer. (Or something along those lines. I'm not so well versed in this area.) Once he goes through that process, he is tahor (ritually pure) again.

If someone is tamei meis and they touch someone, they pass on this ritual impurity, requiring both themselves and the person they touched to go through the purification process, so they'd avoid touching anyone, including their spouses, etc... until they go through the purification process. Without going through that process, there were many ritual things they were unable to do, like bringing sacrifices at the temple, etc... Nowadays, however, we have no more red heifer, so we're all in the state of death related ritual impurity, so there's no touch thats forbidden, etc...

There is another type of ritual impurity called tumas zav, ritual impurity because of seminal emissions. Nocturnal emissions and male masturbation both make a man ritually impure where he needs to clean himself off with a certain amount of water (a shower is the minimum) and ideally go to the mikva before praying, making blessings, getting called to the torah. Again, this is connected due to the loss of life, as semen is considered to be "potential life", which is why male masturbation is forbidden by torah law, because its considered wasting potential life.

(After having sex with your wife, these laws are more lax.)

This ritual impurity doesn't affect your ability to touch your spouse, just your ability to converse with God.