"Niddah"--the 12-days-of-no-touching thing

[masagoroll]

I was reading about this because of Lina. I had not heard about this until Lina started talking about it.

Is this something most Jews observe (12 days of no touching your spouse)? I thought it must not be that common since I hadn't heard of it before. Do any of the Jews on this board observe this? If so, what's it like? I am very curious!

[FaustianSlip]

Not most, but I would say that the majority of Orthodox and a minority of Conservative Jews do. I have friends who observe. Not being married, I can't comment personally on what it's like, but I know that the level to which people observe (i.e. no touching at all, no touching things handed directly to you by your spouse, no sexual contact, et cetera) can vary somewhat. People could be observing the laws of ritual family purity without you knowing, since it's considered a pretty private thing and not usually something you'd talk about with random people.

[ilovetchotchkes]

My husband and I do a modified version of it. We touch but we don't go past 1/2 of first base. Nothing past a peck on the cheek. Basically, no "sexual behavior" that we wouldn't do in front of a group of elderly gossipy grandmothers.

I've got sensory issues and I NEED to be touched. (this sounds really odd) but I get really anxious and freaked out sometimes and him rubbing my shoulders is necessary sometimes for reassurance. And my monthlies are so incredibly painful, that a backrub sometimes helps me go from climbing the walls in pain to being able to sleep. So not touching is not an option.

[masagoroll]

FaustianSlip--I grew up going to an evangelical Christian school in the Bible Belt of Texas, so I just don't know many Jewish people, period! It is not surprising that I wouldn't know about it, basically.

ilovetchotchkes--That sounds much more manageable than not touching at all! I am LOLing at you saying "1/2 of first base" though. :-P I can easily imagine not having sex for 12 days a month, but the no touching at all (like, not even a nice, comforting hug from your husband when you are stressed) sounds awful to me.

[Lillybee]

I am not sure of the exact timeline, but some Orthodox Jews do not touch or have sex until 5 days past the end of the wife's period. I think the main reason is to ensure fertility.

[clibbyjo]

Jew in the city made a video in it (all her videos are good)

[Deleted03]

I am not sure of the exact timeline, but some Orthodox Jews do not touch or have sex until 5 days past the end of the wife's period. I think the main reason is to ensure fertility.

actually several people have pointed out that this usually can make it hard to conceive. On the video clibby has linked they say 7 days after the period ended. So if your period is longer than 7 days, you're already past day 14 of your cycle, and as other people pointed out, it can be better do actually have intercourse the day before or a couple days before, so that the sperm have time to reach the egg before it becomes non viable (bt 24 and 48 hours).

Women with longer cycles may not have any problem, but women with shorter cycles may have more problems!

[Beeks]

Jew in the city made a video in it (all her videos are good)

I get tired of the ortho line that they aren't being sexist and are actually pro-woman. How in the world does this mitzvah put control into the woman's hands? We have no control over when we get our periods. If we wanted to have sex during that time of month or shortly after, we couldn't. We don't have control except in when we'd go to the mikveh afterwards, so I guess if you DIDN'T want sex you'd have control....but that's it. If you want sex you're out of luck. I don't see how that's pro-woman.

[Deleted03]

I get tired of the ortho line that they aren't being sexist and are actually pro-woman. How in the world does this mitzvah put control into the woman's hands? We have no control over when we get our periods. If we wanted to have sex during that time of month or shortly after, we couldn't. We don't have control except in when we'd go to the mikveh afterwards, so I guess if you DIDN'T want sex you'd have control....but that's it. If you want sex you're out of luck. I don't see how that's pro-woman.

exactly my thoughts! If you don't want sex then you have a reason for it. ;) the sparkle in the couple? or a reason to go see elsewhere? lol

[pomology]

I get tired of the ortho line that they aren't being sexist and are actually pro-woman. How in the world does this mitzvah put control into the woman's hands? We have no control over when we get our periods. If we wanted to have sex during that time of month or shortly after, we couldn't. We don't have control except in when we'd go to the mikveh afterwards, so I guess if you DIDN'T want sex you'd have control....but that's it. If you want sex you're out of luck. I don't see how that's pro-woman.

Well, I think it is somewhat pro-women (though not necessarily feminist, as I like to think that the basis of feminism is equality) that men have to fulfill their wives sexually whenever the women want (although I guess not when they are on their periods and in the aftermath of that), but women don't have to do the same. I like that Jewish law bans marital rape of women (but it's kind of not so good that it apparently condones marital rape of men).

[bananacat]

I have this radical notion that if you don't want to have sex, you shouldn't need an excuse for it. If there really are a bunch of women who don't want to have sex 12 days out of the month, it makes me wonder if there is a bigger issue going on. Everyone has different preferences and I'm sure that some women (and some men) are perfectly happy to not have sexual contact for 12 or 14 days a month, but if this is so common that women need an over-arching excuse for it, it kind of makes me wonder. If they were really pro-woman, they would support women being able to refuse sex without any excuse, and they would be more concerned about why so many women apparently just don't want sex and maybe try to solve that problem by making sex more enjoyable for the women.

[prairiemuffin]

Just to be sure I understand this, is the root of this practice in the belief that the woman is "unclean" during this time?

TIA!

[oolong]

Man, this has got to be like the most difficult mitzvah to follow if you are as young and giddy-in-love as Lina and Tony seem to be. Not growing up in Orthodox culture I'd think would make it harder, because they pretty much dated just like my first love and I did -- we also met on the internet and things went very fast for us. No legal marriage, but we did live together quickly. Good heavens I just can't imagine how we would have managed to keep our hands off each other for half of the month. In Orthodox culture, I believe, marriages are usually arranged and love is expected to come after the marriage. Or so it seems to me from the outside. Most of what I know about "Orthodox" Judaism is about the Chassidim and I am not Jewish and know exactly 1 real Jew and 1 faux Jew (who doesn't call himself Jewish but follows some Jewish practices because they help him spiritually, which I'm A-OK with).

[doe]

I first heard about Niddah through AnnaMatrix, and I looked some stuff up about it. What I read kind of freaked me out. I remember reading about a woman having to go to her rabbi, and insert a little white piece of cotton into her vagina, remove it and let him look at it to ensure she is over her period. I know for me when I'm nearly over it ends as a little spotting which can last for a couple of days. Well that's partly what that white cloth is for, and they have to let the rabbi decipher if it's from her period or just a vaginal fluid. And based on what he decides about it, will dictate if she is clean or not.

Please someone correct me if this is inaccurate or a too simplified explanation.

[oolong]

Just to be sure I understand this, is the root of this practice in the belief that the woman is "unclean" during this time?

TIA!

We need a real Jew to answer this, but yes. However, the concept of "unclean" is not really the same as we think when we hear the word "unclean" I think. It is a spiritual matter, and less of an ew-periods-are-icky matter (although I guess it may have come out of this to some extent). Aren't men also "unclean" in this manner when they ejaculate, so you are pretty much unclean until some point if you have had sex or a wet dream as well? I think it's more like unclean = not in the right state for certain spiritual practices.

But again, I'm not Jewish and don't know much about how modern Jews actually practice this. I'm just a huge fan of the Torah. And who knows how Lina et. al do it because as we have seen, so far "how real modern Jews do it" is not necessarily what they are going for.

[oolong]

I first heard about Niddah through AnnaMatrix, and I looked some stuff up about it. What I read kind of freaked me out. I remember reading about a woman having to go to her rabbi, and insert a little white piece of cotton into her vagina, remove it and let him look at it to ensure she is over her period. I know for me when I'm nearly over it ends as a little spotting which can last for a couple of days. Well that's partly what that white cloth is for, and they have to let the rabbi decipher if it's from her period or just a vaginal fluid. And based on what he decides about it, will dictate if she is clean or not.

Please someone correct me if this is inaccurate or a too simplified explanation.

OMG, once I went and read on some Jewish forum for people trying to follow this practice, and they talked about cutting the crotches out of their underwear to show the rabbi in case they weren't sure if the stain was big enough to make them niddah or not... and then some women talking about wearing black underwear or pantiliners so you can't see it and don't have these questions! I have no idea where this was though, or if this anything close to a common practice. Or if those folks were just crazy.

ETA: Or even real Jews.

[Kitchen Princess]

It's disgusting to have to show someone else your underwear, ffs. How humiliating that must be.

[sea_gale]

I was reminded of this post about a woman showing her bedikot (testing cloths) to her rabbi, who also happened to be her FATHER...

home.mayimrabim.com:443/avigayil.html

[NurseNell]

There is a mikva in my neighborhood, there are women going in daily. There are both Orthodox and Hassidics in the neighborhood.

[LynnKaboom]

I was taught that you shouldn't have sex while you're on your period, and for three days after it ends, because you can transmit disease to your partner through the menstrual blood and that you are more susceptible to catching disease as well. But I'm not sure how legitimate that is, because it was my great-grandmother who told me this, and while I love her, she had some pretty weird ideas about relationships and how they're supposed to work.

[pomology]

There is a mikva in my neighborhood, there are women going in daily. There are both Orthodox and Hassidics in the neighborhood.

Hasidism is a movement that falls under the umbrella of Orthodoxy, so technically Hasidim are Orthodox.

[NurseNell]

I was taught that you shouldn't have sex while you're on your period, and for three days after it ends, because you can transmit disease to your partner through the menstrual blood and that you are more susceptible to catching disease as well.

I don't think there is any medical data to prove that. If anything, when you have your period blood is flowing out and conceivably could make it easier for germs to leave. Then again, if you leave a super tampon in too long you can get a serious bacterial infection.

[apple1]

I was taught that you shouldn't have sex while you're on your period, and for three days after it ends, because you can transmit disease to your partner through the menstrual blood and that you are more susceptible to catching disease as well. But I'm not sure how legitimate that is, because it was my great-grandmother who told me this, and while I love her, she had some pretty weird ideas about relationships and how they're supposed to work.

There is no medical/scientific truth to this belief.

[emmiedahl]

Being on your period increases the chance of receiving or transmitting diseases. Interesting discussion here http://std.about.com/od/riskfactorsfors ... D-Risk.htm

[blisterine]

emmie, without looking at the link, that sounds right, because the cervix is more open during this time.