Josie and Kelton 1: Here We Go Again

[BunnyBee]

24 minutes ago, llucie said:

Tori will be almost 9 months pregnant by the time of the wedding, it would be weird in other circustances, but i just think its because of the pregnancy.

Kendra was in a wedding like a week post partum, I didnt think Fundies cared 

[Ivycoveredtower]

4 minutes ago, BunnyBee said:

Kendra was in a wedding like a week post partum, I didnt think Fundies cared 

Tori also doesn't seem big on the spot light on a normal day so I can see her not wanting to stand up there in front of that giant crowd. 

[BunnyBee]

12 minutes ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

Tori also doesn't seem big on the spot light on a normal day so I can see her not wanting to stand up there in front of that giant crowd. 

True, I could see her pulling a Michael and specifically asking not to be included.

[TatiFish9]

1 hour ago, BunnyBee said:

True, I could see her pulling a Michael and specifically asking not to be included.

Me too.

With that said I am curious to the truth behind the Michael choice. I am not sure if I buy that Michaela didn't want to be included because of shyness. I can't trust Kelly's account of things because she says Josie decided that she was too young to date Kelton, but at another point Kelton said it was the parents decision. Now in their love story, he says it was both Josie and the parent's aka the parent's. Kelly is not afraid to give a PR response. 

[Hisey]

3 hours ago, formergothardite said:

If a college student went after my teen daugher wanting her number, to text, be her best friend and enter a serious relationship with and then didn't seem to understand why we, her parents, said no way, I would warn my daughter about that guy. 

He was jealous and angry because parents of a 16 year old who only believe in dating with the intent of marriage said that they didn't want an adult contacting their daughter? He couldn't understand that and God had to work on his heart to get him to the point he could forgive the Bates?

 

I think he said he had to "forgive" Josie. Unbelievable.

[formergothardite]

21 minutes ago, Hisey said:

I think he said he had to "forgive" Josie. Unbelievable.

I can't tell exactly who it is he had to forgive, but the fact that he felt like he needed to forgive them means he still feels like they did something wrong. No, the Bates did exactly the right thing and not that I condone controlling adults, but they are obviously going to control their adult children so maybe they should have a bit more concern about their still very young daughter marrying a man who got so obsessed with her when she was 16 that he felt that the family wronged him when they told him to cool the advances on their teen daughter. 

 

[Ivycoveredtower]

7 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I can't tell exactly who it is he had to forgive, but the fact that he felt like he needed to forgive them means he still feels like they did something wrong. No, the Bates did exactly the right thing and not that I condone controlling adults, but they are obviously going to control their adult children so maybe they should have a bit more concern about their still very young daughter marrying a man who got so obsessed with her when she was 16 that he felt that the family wronged him when they told him to cool the advances on their teen daughter. 

 

His heart was broken are you saying you were never hurt or bitter towards someone who broke your heart. because I know I have been and didn't want to be around them either. 

[BunnyBee]

Still curious about if Evan Stuart is Carlin's boyfriend Even Stewart 

[formergothardite]

4 minutes ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

His heart was broken are you saying you were never hurt or bitter towards someone who broke your heart. because I know I have been and didn't want to be around them either. 

If I was an adult trying to enter a courtship with a 16 year old boy, I'm really, really, REALLY hoping I wouldn't react that way. I'm also hoping I wouldn't attempt to get into a serious relationship with a 16 year old boy, but if I found myself in that situation, I would hope I would have the maturity to understand that the relationship needed to be put on hold. 

He hasn't matured enough to realize that the Bates did nothing wrong and did not need forgiveness, he was the one crossing the lines. 

She was 16! She wasn't really interested in him until he made a big deal about the fact she ignored him and then yelled out she was his best friend. He was going to college wanting to text and be best friends with a very sheltered 16 year old. He wanted to enter a serious relationship that would basically be leading towards marriage with a 16 year old. 

He sort of hung out with her over part of a summer. He couldn't move on from her and felt bitter because her parents wanted to protect their 16 YEAR OLD DAUGHTER from an adult who gave every indication of wanting to enter a serious relationship that would lead towards marriage. 

No, this wasn't a typical broken heart after a dating relationship. This was a college guy who hung out for a bit with a 16 year old and got angry when her parents said she needed to stop seeing him till she got older. 

I don't get why people think his reaction is okay. He was a college student who became bitter because a 16 year old who wasn't even dating him said she didn't want him to see him anymore. Why is this a sweet story?

[Ivycoveredtower]

3 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

If I was an adult trying to enter a courtship with a 16 year old boy, I'm really, really, REALLY hoping I wouldn't react that way. I'm also hoping I wouldn't attempt to get into a serious relationship with a 16 year old boy, but if I found myself in that situation, I would hope I would have the maturity to understand that the relationship needed to be put on hold. 

He hasn't matured enough to realize that the Bates did nothing wrong and did not need forgiveness, he was the one crossing the lines. 

She was 16! She wasn't really interested in him until he made a big deal about the fact she ignored him and then yelled out she was his best friend. He was going to college wanting to text and be best friends with a very sheltered 16 year old. He wanted to enter a serious relationship that would basically be leading towards marriage with a 16 year old. 

He sort of hung out with her over part of a summer. He couldn't move on from her and felt bitter because her parents wanted to protect their 16 YEAR OLD DAUGHTER from an adult who gave every indication of wanting to enter a serious relationship that would lead towards marriage. 

No, this wasn't a typical broken heart after a dating relationship. This was a college guy who hung out for a bit with a 16 year old and got angry when her parents said she needed to stop seeing him till she got older. 

I don't get why people think his reaction is okay. He was a college student who became bitter because a 16 year old who wasn't even dating him said she didn't want him to see him anymore. Why is this a sweet story?

Oh FFS you're acting like he was some thirty year old man he is barely four years older then her. 

[formergothardite]

It doesn't matter. He was in college she was a sheltered 16 year old girl who wasn't even dating him. And you think it is normal for a college student to become so obsessed with a 16 year old who he didn't date that he can't move on from her and is bitter she and her family said that they thought she should wait till she was older to be in a serious relationship? In what world is that not a big red flag? This question is not rhetorical. Why is that normal to you? 

I have daughter who is a teen and if a man acted this way after she didn't even date him, I would see that as a big warnings. I don't understand why this behavior is seen as okay. If a guy her age acted that way I would be concerned about what sort of a person that man was. 

Kelton, an adult in college, was crushed and angry that a 16 year old girl told him no. Seriously, this was not your typical broken heart after dating situation. 

[Rachel333]

WTF, she was only 16 and he was in college? A few years matter a hell of a lot in that situation. I don't follow the Bates closely and I didn't know about this. That is really disturbing.

[JordynDarby5]

I don't know I do think its weird he was that intense about a 16 year old girl. I don't know many parents who would say yes to a college boy wanting to date their underage daughter.  And was that upset by being turned down? That's he was still upset about it months later? Being jealous that his best friend is dating her sister. His dad had to tell him he needed to move on. Yes, he really did. His whole story sounded weird and creepy to me.

[formergothardite]

5 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

WTF, she was only 16 and he was in college? A few years matter a hell of a lot in that situation. I don't follow the Bates closely and I didn't know about this. That is really disturbing.

Yes. It was the summer she was 16 and was going off to college that he started talking to her. During that summer they saw each other at various events. They did not date or court. It sounds like he approached her parents looking for a serious relationship but they said she was too young. It also sounds like Josie was the one who said she didn't want to be friends with him anymore. And then he felt like he was wronged and couldn't move on with his life because he was so obsessed with her. At some point in all this he dated someone else, but all he could think of was that no one could compare to the 16 year old who he had never even dated. He was so upset that he couldn't even hear about his friends relationship without becoming even more upset that Josie(who was a 16 year old!) didn't want to be in a relationship with him. 

And it sure as hell doesn't sound like he has matured enough to realize he reacted poorly and that maybe he shouldn't have latched onto a sheltered 16 year old girl while he was in college. 

. 

[TatiFish9]

1 hour ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

Oh FFS you're acting like he was some thirty year old man he is barely four years older then her. 

lol! The world is truly becoming an unrecognizable place.

Anyhow, I agree. We call it the four year rule when dealing with adolescent/transitional age couplings. If the couple is (or at some point) reasonably able to attend high school together, then the attraction itself is not creepy. However, I believe that Kelton and Josie were in different seasons  phases of life anyhow. It was best that they were not allowed to date then. 

I also think that how we view these kinds of situations largely depends upon cultural and regional views. Age of consent varies from state to state (in U.S.) and differs from country to country. Many (in U.S.) include a 3 or 4 year rule like I have stated above. With that said, I believe Tennessee sets the age of consent at 18 with a Romeo and Juliet exemption within a 4 year range, but not a day over. However, in FL (where Kelton went to school) age of consent is 18, BUT...R&J allows 16 and 17 year olds to consent with a partner 23 or younger. So I can see where the confusion may have come in... maybe. Sorta? lol

Personally, I believe modern Western culture (especially one as puritanical as the U.S.) infantilize young adults way too long. We have extended emotional maturity long beyond what our grandparents and great grands did while nature has not changed puberty ranges significantly since then. It's odd to think 100 years ago there wasn't such thing as a teenager. Either you were a child or an adult. Now, you're a weirdo if you're 20 attracted to a 16 y/o. Though, in most states you can marry them. Huh?

 

[Ivycoveredtower]

1 minute ago, TatiFish9 said:

lol! The world is truly becoming an unrecognizable place.

Anyhow, I agree. We call it the four year rule when dealing with adolescent/transitional age couplings. If the couple is (or at some point) reasonably able to attend high school together, then the attraction itself is not creepy. However, I believe that Kelton and Josie were in different seasons  phases of life anyhow. It was best that they were not allowed to date then. 

I also think that how we view these kinds of situations largely depends upon cultural and regional views. Age of consent varies from state to state (in U.S.) and differs from country to country. Many (in U.S.) include a 3 or 4 year rule like I have stated above. With that said, I believe Tennessee sets the age of consent at 18 with a Romeo and Juliet exemption within a 4 year range, but not a day over. However, in FL (where Kelton went to school) age of consent is 18, BUT...R&J allows 16 and 17 year olds to consent with a partner 23 or younger. So I can see where the confusion may have come in... maybe. Sorta? lol

Personally, I believe modern Western culture (especially one as puritanical as the U.S.) infantilize young adults way too long. We have extended emotional maturity long beyond what our grandparents and great grands did while nature has not changed puberty ranges significantly since then. It's odd to think 100 years ago there wasn't such thing as a teenager. Either you were a child or an adult. Now, you're a weirdo if you're 20 attracted to a 16 y/o. Though, in most states you can marry them. Huh?

 

I don't know I think maybe if they were having sex I might feel differently I don't know  but they were friends and then she was like sorry can't talk to you anymore and he explains how he cared for her and was hurt and he felt anger and we talk about how Fundy's are allowed to show their emotions and then one of them expresses emotions about a friendship/ Potential relationship going south and it gets jumped all over. 

[TatiFish9]

Just now, Ivycoveredtower said:

I don't know I think maybe if they were having sex I might feel differently I don't know  but they were friends and then she was like sorry can't talk to you anymore and he explains how he cared for her and was hurt and he felt anger and we talk about how Fundy's are allowed to show their emotions and then one of them expresses emotions about a friendship/ Potential relationship going south and it gets jumped all over. 

I see what you're saying, but I think that there are certain assumptions because in Josie's world that kind of friendship only leads to one thing, marriage. Therefore it is going to be seen more  creepy as a bottom line. However, I am not entirely sure that Kelton comes from a courtship model. I doubt he was courting that girl he was taking pics with online. So maybe he didnt fully get what talking to her was inevitably leading to at that time.

In my mind, if a 16 y/o can marry a 20 y/o, then they could have sex with them because that is what typically happens the day they marry them. This stuff has only been complicated by (necessary) laws and the extension of childhood through the teenage years. That is my logical response. Emotionally we don't want our 16 y/o's with people who are legally adults (18-20) but not really adults, because 21....again all complicated.

[formergothardite]

36 minutes ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

he explains how he cared for her and was hurt and he felt anger 

The most disturbing part of it for me is his reaction to her saying she didn't want to be friends with him anymore. They never dated, but apparently he was so wrapped up in her being the one for him that even his dad had to tell him to get over her. It is a bit unsettling to me that he reacted that way to someone who was so young and sheltered and who he never even dated. I personally would see that as a red flag in a guy. 

She told him she didn't want to be friends and he reacted like she wronged him and he couldn't move on with his life. Like it was said they were in totally different phases of life. He was in college, probably able to make lots of his own decisions and able to date while she was a sheltered teen who couldn't make many decisions on her own, but it did seem like she made the decision to end the relationship. He couldn't even be happy for his friend and listen to his friend discuss his relationship because he was so bitter that a 16 year old who he was never really in a relationship with wasn't talking to him. 

And it isn't like he has grown out of feeling like this. He still seems to think she did something he needed to forgive her for and he is glad he was able to forgive her.

[singsingsing]

I think it's weird too, but I will say that Kelton strikes me more as someone who is quite immature for his age than as a mature older man preying on an underage girl. Even reading his story, written from his current perspective, he reminds me of a 17 or 18 year old, and how old is he really now? 22 or 23? I also didn't get the sense that he was particularly bitter, just sad and frustrated that this girl he was in love with abruptly ended their relationship and went no contact, which is understandable. 

I'm not really defending him because I honestly can't stand any of these people, and Kelton has always reminded me a guy you'd see wearing a polo shirt and marching with a tiki torch. Also, I think all of their relationships are pretty screwed up and the dynamics are really unhealthy, whatever the age difference at the start. I just didn't really get the same creep/bitter vibes from reading his story that others have.

[formergothardite]

Just imagine the scenario if it was two college students. They hung out, but the relationship didn't go anywhere and the girl ended it. The boy was hurt, but instead of moving on with his life, he decides that she was the one for him and no one else would ever be able to replace her. He dates other women but can only think about the one girl. He feels like she wronged him and just seeing their mutual friends makes him upset because he can't get over the idea that she doesn't want him. He claims he will never be able to move on because there is no one else but her. 

Most people wouldn't think that was a healthy reaction, and he was behaving this way with a super sheltered 16 year old. 

5 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

also didn't get the sense that he was particularly bitter,

A year later he couldn't even stand to see Bobby and Tori because Josie rejected him. I think he was bitter. I could be wrong. But it seems a bit extreme to react that way when they didn't even date. 

[singsingsing]

14 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

A year later he couldn't even stand to see Bobby and Tori because Josie rejected him. I think he was bitter. I could be wrong. But it seems a bit extreme to react that way when they didn't even date.

Hmm, yeah, I think I just assumed he was exaggerating. If he actually literally couldn't stand to see them, that's ridiculous.

[Rachel333]

The fact that a relationship might be legal isn't really what I care about. "Legal" is the bare minimum when it comes to whether an age difference is acceptable or not. I also don't particularly care whether something was common in the past. Neither something being legal nor common makes it healthy.

A 16-year-old girl is still a child, and I disagree that people that age are infantalized. I actually think girls are sexualized far too early and treated as older than they are, while it's boys who are excused for their age. I hate the argument that girls just mature mentally earlier than boys and thus it's acceptable for very young girls to be in relationships with older men. 

I'm somewhat dismayed that people here are arguing that there's nothing wrong with a 20-year-old man pursuing a 16-year-old girl (she was still 15 when he turned 20!) and then sulking when he's rejected. There is a huge gap in experience at those ages, even if one of them is immature for his age (and if that's an excuse for Kelton, then Josie's sheltered upbringing should be considered as well). The fact that he still thinks he was in the right is disturbing and does not give me any confidence that they have a healthier dynamic now. 

[nelliebelle1197]

4 hours ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

Oh FFS you're acting like he was some thirty year old man he is barely four years older then her. 

That is a big four years, especially for a naive and homeschooled girl, and I don't understand why you think that it is okay. It's not. It's fairly obvious you're a massive Bates fangirl, so perhaps you need a little perspective on why it is not okay for an adult to date a teenager.

[mstee]

On a somewhat different note, I was surprised to read that he called out to her, asked for her number, and that was after only talking for one evening.  I’d guess that he doesn’t come from the courtship model or wasn’t familiar with the rules cause I think that’s a big no-no. I’m also surprised that Josie gave out her number. 

I don’t know what’s right with the age thing. I think there are black and white situations where I think hell no and there are others that are grey. I dated a 20 year old when I was 16. I was mature, he was immature, and we met somewhere in the middle. Not sure why my parents agreed to it? I would hesitate as a parent. Anyways, his story sounds less predatory to me and more like he was trying to write a love story that had heartache and ended up working out. I would have liked to have been a fly on the wall when the decision was made for Josie to cut contact and when she started talking to him again. I wonder how much of the decision was hers. 

ETA: I agree with above posters that if we’re talking his maturity level then Josie’s needs to be considered too. The Bates have definitely sheltered their kids. 

[nelliebelle1197]

2 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

The fact that a relationship might be legal isn't really what I care about. "Legal" is the bare minimum when it comes to whether an age difference is acceptable or not. I also don't particularly care whether something was common in the past. Neither something being legal nor common makes it healthy.

A 16-year-old girl is still a child, and I disagree that people that age are infantalized. I actually think girls are sexualized far too early and treated as older than they are, while it's boys who are excused for their age. I hate the argument that girls just mature mentally earlier than boys and thus it's acceptable for very young girls to be in relationships with older men. 

I'm somewhat dismayed that people here are arguing that there's nothing wrong with a 20-year-old man pursuing a 16-year-old girl (she was still 15 when he turned 20!) and then sulking when he's rejected. There is a huge gap in experience at those ages, even if one of them is immature for his age (and if that's an excuse for Kelton, then Josie's sheltered upbringing should be considered as well). The fact that he still thinks he was in the right is disturbing and does not give me any confidence that they have a healthier dynamic now. 

Wonderfully said, Rachel. These are real people and not just characters on a TV show.  And arguing that it is okay for a 20 year old to pursue a 15 year old is really twisted.