Josie and Kelton 1: Here We Go Again

[TeaELSee]

He was a freshman in college at a 4 year school, she wasn’t even 16.

[kmachete14]

Okay I am realllyyy going to play devil's advocate here. I think Kelton is a smug little MAGA hat wearing would be frat boy, but I don't think he was some sort of pedophile. I didn't think Kelton's story came off as sulking or anything. Honestly, it sounded like a middle school drama (probably appropriate for these people's education and level of sheltering). In terms of needing to "forgive," in this culture every little thing requires the use of the world forgiveness. Any feeling of slight bitterness or annoyance at someone. In addition, what "sins" is he really committing? His story reads kind of like a testimony, so he has to acknowledge he's not perfect and has "sinned" and needed to ask for "forgiveness." Not whiny, just following the fundie expectation and vernacular. I also think his pining away for Josie is an exaggeration in an attempt to make the love story even better -- he always knew she was the one! blah blah. 

I don't think it's wrong that a recently graduated HS senior equivalent thought a recently finished sophomore equivalent was pretty, especially since he wasn't gunning for sex (usually what people associate with a HS senior dating a HS freshmen etc) but instead just talking to her. Kelton rubs me the wrong way for other reasons but I don't think the origins of his relationship with Josie aren't really one of them. The Bates did the right thing and I'm sure he knows it was right too in terms of timing (hence why the "forgiveness"). Now the question would be from Josie's POV, did she sit around thinking of him all the time refusing to be her own person, or did she think oh well dad says no so I'll just go about whatever I was doing before to reach my own goals? 

At any rate, it seems this is a common theme among fundies with the older men "noticing" their future wives at young ages (Joy Duggar for one, Lauren Duggar for another). Perhaps they think of it as God sending them a message that in time this person could be the one? Who knows. 

This is very muddled and I'm not sure if I'll even agree with what I said tomorrow but have at it! 

[Hisey]

4 hours ago, TatiFish9 said:

lol! The world is truly becoming an unrecognizable place.

Anyhow, I agree. We call it the four year rule when dealing with adolescent/transitional age couplings. If the couple is (or at some point) reasonably able to attend high school together, then the attraction itself is not creepy. However, I believe that Kelton and Josie were in different seasons  phases of life anyhow. It was best that they were not allowed to date then. 

I also think that how we view these kinds of situations largely depends upon cultural and regional views. Age of consent varies from state to state (in U.S.) and differs from country to country. Many (in U.S.) include a 3 or 4 year rule like I have stated above. With that said, I believe Tennessee sets the age of consent at 18 with a Romeo and Juliet exemption within a 4 year range, but not a day over. However, in FL (where Kelton went to school) age of consent is 18, BUT...R&J allows 16 and 17 year olds to consent with a partner 23 or younger. So I can see where the confusion may have come in... maybe. Sorta? lol

Personally, I believe modern Western culture (especially one as puritanical as the U.S.) infantilize young adults way too long. We have extended emotional maturity long beyond what our grandparents and great grands did while nature has not changed puberty ranges significantly since then. It's odd to think 100 years ago there wasn't such thing as a teenager. Either you were a child or an adult. Now, you're a weirdo if you're 20 attracted to a 16 y/o. Though, in most states you can marry them. Huh?

 

Just because people could marry at 16 and 20 doesn't mean those marriages went well. Or that the bride and groom were mature enough to marry. Or that they were happy in their marriage. It just means they married.

Personally, I think 16 is way too young to marry in both 1918 and in 2018. The fact that teenagers were considered adults in 1918 (and actually, I don't believe that is true) does not mean they were adults. It just means they were allowed to act as adults, for better or for worse.

[Hisey]

45 minutes ago, kmachete14 said:

I don't think it's wrong that a recently graduated HS senior equivalent thought a recently finished sophomore equivalent was pretty, especially since he wasn't gunning for sex

I don't think it's wrong that he noticed her and felt she was pretty. However, the mature thing to do would be to say, "She's cute. Too bad she's only 15. I hope she's still available in a couple of years" and stop there.

Instead, he tried to pursue a serious relationship with her.

Both Josie and her parents rejected him and said she was too young.  A mature young man would say, "They're right. She's still a kid and technically I'm an adult. Well, I should look elsewhere and she'll be 18 before you know it."

Instead, he got angry and pissed. He waited, but only because he had to. 

A couple of years passed, and he got his girl. A mature young man would say, "It was hard to wait for her, but I wouldn't have wanted to date her unless she felt ready. And she really was too young, at 15, to get seriously involved."

Instead he said, "It was so unfair that I had to wait, but I am able to forgive them now that I have what I want."

THAT's the problem with Kelton. It's not that he wanted to date a girl who wasn't quite old enough. It was that he was angry -- and he remained angry -- that he didn't get what he wanted when he wanted it.

I actually don't predict good things for this marriage.

[Rachel333]

I'm also confused by the argument that it's okay for an adult man to date a child if he's immature. I feel like that's all the more reason he shouldn't. If anything I think a 16-year-old girl would be better off dating a 20-year-old who is mature for his age, but then if he actually was then he wouldn't be dating a child.

[BlessaYourHeart]

Call me crazy, but I don’t see the age gap as a huge problem. Maybe because I was 16 (a month shy of 17) and my now fiancé was just turned 20 when we met. I honestly don’t see anything wrong with relationships in the age range of 16-19/20. It’s not like Kelton was some 40 year old guy preying on a bunch of minors. He got a crush, for heart broken and got hung up on it...to me that’s so normal for that age/stage of life. 

Also the story is very likely exaggerated for dramatic effect. Considering he dated another girl during that time, I’m sure he wasn’t sitting at home looking at pictures of Josie and pining for her all day 

[RainbowSky]

Is a 40.00 pillowcase normal? Why!??

[formergothardite]

9 hours ago, singsingsing said:

If he actually literally couldn't stand to see them, that's ridiculous.

A year later his dad was having to talk to him about not pining away for Josie. In his senior year of college he was still so obsessed with her that he told his dad that the only girl he wanted was one just like Josie.

I don't think he is lying about the conversations he had with his dad.

4 hours ago, BlessaYourHeart said:

Maybe because I was 16 (a month shy of 17) and my now fiancé was just turned 20 when we met.

But what if you had never dated your fiance and had told him you didn't want to be friends when you were 16 and he spent four years claiming that you were the only one for him and that he couldn't even see is friends be happy because it reminded him too much that 16 year old you said you didn't want to hang out? You don't think that four years of being upset over a 16 year old who he only talked to for a fairly brief amount of time isn't a bit much? Because that is what Kelton did. 

Except 16 year old Josie was very sheltered and raised to think that if she entered a relationship with a man it had to lead to marriage. And he had to have known that because the Bates family doesn't exactly keep that a secret and he was told she wasn't ready for a serious relationship. And instead of respecting that he took offence that he needed to wait till she was older to see if they could have a relationship. 

[formergothardite]

7 hours ago, kmachete14 said:

. I also think his pining away for Josie is an exaggeration in an attempt to make the love story even better -- he always knew she was the one! blah blah. 

He wasn't as sheltered as her and did date someone else(but apparently compared that person to Josie), but I don't think he lied about the conversations with his dad. So one year and four years later he was still very, very focused on the fact that a 16 year old girl he found attractive didn't want to be in a serious relationship with him. If he had said, I'm attracted to her but I knew I needed to wait till she was older and ready to enter a serious relationship, I focused on my education and God while I waited to see what His plan for our lives were, it would have actually been a lot better of a testimony. Very Elizabeth Elliot like. 

Instead he went with, a sheltered 16 year old who I could only have a relationship with if we said it was heading towards marriage told me no, and I couldn't understand that and spent four years being upset over it until at last she became an adult and agreed to be in a relationship with me. 

[BeccaGrim]

When I brought up this topic about a year ago, the age differences and that she had to be a baby, FJ attacked me with stories about every person they knew who fell in love at some young age with an older man and how happy their (mother, grandmother, aunt, cousin, roommate) was and how I had to get over myself. Seems the court of public opinion has changed on this.

I contended then and I contend now that it is odd. She was a very young teenager.  If they were meeting now that would be different.  But, clearly they've made this work in Fundie land. She thanked him at their courtship for jumping through the hoops it takes to date a Bates girl.  Her words.  

[laPapessaGiovanna]

3 hours ago, formergothardite said:

Very Elizabeth Elliot like. 

You mean Anne Elliot? Sorry for nitpicking.

[formergothardite]

19 minutes ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

You mean Anne Elliot? Sorry for nitpicking.

No I was thinking of Elizabeth Elliot who fell in love with the man of her dreams but he wasn't interested at the time so she decided to focus on God and college and wait and see. She wrote a book about it called Passion and Purity. 

ETA: Fundies have a love hate relationship with her late husband. They love a good story of a missionary being killed by the heathen natives, they hate if you bring up the part of the story where Jim refused to use a gun to shoot the natives because he felt like he was secure in his salvation and he would be a terrible missionary if he shot people knowing they would go to hell. His mindset doesn't exactly mesh with the carry a gun at all times to shoot anyone who might be a danger mindset so many fundies have. 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

29 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

No I was thinking of Elizabeth Elliot who fell in love with the man of her dreams but he wasn't interested at the time so she decided to focus on God and college and wait and see. She wrote a book about it called Passion and Purity. 

ETA: Fundies have a love hate relationship with her late husband. They love a good story of a missionary being killed by the heathen natives, they hate if you bring up the part of the story where Jim refused to use a gun to shoot the natives because he felt like he was secure in his salvation and he would be a terrible missionary if he shot people knowing they would go to hell. His mindset doesn't exactly mesh with the carry a gun at all times to shoot anyone who might be a danger mindset so many fundies have. 

Sorry, my bad, I was thinkithinking about Jane Austen's Persuasion.

[formergothardite]

12 minutes ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

, I was thinkithinking about Jane Austen's Persuasion.

So you didn't have to spend your teen years reading Passion and Purity!  I have a signed copy! Elizabeth Elliot is pretty big in many fundie circles, but I forget most people won't know about her.

[TatiFish9]

15 hours ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Wonderfully said, Rachel. These are real people and not just characters on a TV show.  And arguing that it is okay for a 20 year old to pursue a 15 year old is really twisted.

He specifically says during the year she was 15 and he was 19, they were not pursuing anything together.

"The first time I ever saw Josie was at my sister's piano recital where Josie was also playing. I remember being floored by Josie’s beauty and spunky personality from the first time I met her, but we were nothing more than acquaintances for the next year.

The following summer 2015, we saw each other at a church service. [...]"

Furthermore these two met as fundie teenagers in a tight knit circle. I doubt that at the time Kelton was the emotional maturity level of a normal 19 yo and that aint saying much. Again if he was a senior in high school, would it be creepy if he was dating her as a freshman?  

It is one thing to say that it  not wise or comfortable for two youngsters who are several years apart to date especially after one has gone off to college but to say it is twisted, I think that is a matter of opinion.

 

 

 

[TatiFish9]

12 hours ago, Hisey said:

Just because people could marry at 16 and 20 doesn't mean those marriages went well. Or that the bride and groom were mature enough to marry. Or that they were happy in their marriage. It just means they married.

Personally, I think 16 is way too young to marry in both 1918 and in 2018. The fact that teenagers were considered adults in 1918 (and actually, I don't believe that is true) does not mean they were adults. It just means they were allowed to act as adults, for better or for worse.

Just because people marry at any other age, it doesn't mean the marriage will go well...???

 Sorry, I don't base my values on opinions and personal experiences alone. For me it is a matter of logic and accountability . When is a girl or boy able to consent (not just sexually) to be in a relationship? That is all that matters to me. The standard for U.S. and most western countries is 16. However in U.S. there are states that place at 18 & TN just happens to be one of them. That is why Josie was gunning for her 18th. She knew then she and Kelton could safely date with out backlash of the age difference. 

Based on the information Kelton gave he was neither creepy or stalkery. He was rejected. He moved on with his life. When he saw her again, he did not deny his attraction but felt it best to stay away from it - sounds quite mature to me. Obviously their connection was intense. This happens. Kelton was young, needing guidance from some one more mature. He took it well. Seems like he did so in a way that was suitable for both Josie and her parents. 

 

[formergothardite]

29 minutes ago, TatiFish9 said:

Again if he was a senior in high school, would it be creepy if he was dating her as a freshman?  

 

If he was a senior in high school and she was a senior in high school and she called off the relationship(that wasn't even dating) and a year later he was still so hung up on this that he couldn't stand hearing his friend discuss a relationship because it reminded him too much of her telling him no and his father had to talk to him, then yes, I would think that was creepy. If he made it to being a senior in college and was still so hung up on a girl who had said she didn't want a relationship with him that he was telling his father that he only wanted to date someone just like her, I would also say that would move to the creepy side. 

11 minutes ago, TatiFish9 said:

He moved on with his life.

But he didn't really. A year later he was still focused on this to an extreme point and several years later he was still saying he only wanted to date someone who was like a 16 year old he met. That isn't moving on. 

 

[Rachel333]

I do have a problem with a freshman and senior dating. That is a huge gap for that age and the fact that they can attend the same high school for a year doesn't make a difference to me.

I don't get putting so much importance on factors like that. If you have a 19-year-old senior who was held back and a 12-year-old freshman who skipped two grades is it okay for them to date because they're in high school together? If you're in a country like Yemen where 9-year-olds can marry adults is that okay because it's legal? Those are extreme examples, obviously, but my point is that I don't consider external factors like those to be the determining factor in whether something is okay or not.

FWIW, I'm not saying that I think everyone who has a relationship like that is terrible or that it can never work out, but I just do not think it's healthy for an adult man to date a child and will never condone people entering those relationships in the first place. There is an enormous difference between 20 and 16.

[JordynDarby5]

14 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

If he was a senior in high school and she was a senior in high school and she called off the relationship(that wasn't even dating) and a year later he was still so hung up on this that he couldn't stand hearing his friend discuss a relationship because it reminded him too much of her telling him no and his father had to talk to him, then yes, I would think that was creepy. If he made it to being a senior in college and was still so hung up on a girl who had said she didn't want a relationship with him that he was telling his father that he only wanted to date someone just like her, I would also say that would move to the creepy side. 

But he didn't really. A year later he was still focused on this to an extreme point and several years later he was still saying he only wanted to date someone who was like a 16 year old he met. That isn't moving on. 

 

Yeah, that's not moving. If they were the same age and he still had this reaction it would still be creepy. He wanted a relationship with her and she said no. He got his answer. No it wasn't what he wanted to hear. But it happens. You move on. He chose not to move on. He chose to be angry. To be so hung up on her a year later that he can't handle hearing his best friend talking about the girl he liked? Yes, he needed to move on. He should have moved on by that point. But he didn't and only really sort of moved on when his dad told him he needed too. But he doesn't really move on from that either. Because he decides he's going to try and find a girl just like Josie? How is that healthy. He's not looking at certain type, he's looking for a girl who is enough like Josie that he can date or court. That's not moving on, or healthy. Its creepy.

[LawsonBatesEgo]

Free Josie.

[TatiFish9]

3 hours ago, formergothardite said:

But he didn't really. A year later he was still focused on this to an extreme point and several years later he was still saying he only wanted to date someone who was like a 16 year old he met. That isn't moving on. 

 

I honestly feel like we read two different accounts. I am struggling to see what has changed. Three days ago we knew the Kelton/Josie timeline. What has changed?  Why the outrage? Last week he was into her when she was 16, he 20 and folks were scoping out their registry like it wasn't no thang. Now he openly details how he struggled with them being separated by her family (something he already admitted, btw). Suddenly the apocalypse is upon us?

 

Please send knowledge and cash.

[formergothardite]

51 minutes ago, TatiFish9 said:

Three days ago we knew the Kelton/Josie timeline. What has changed?  Why the outrage? Last week he was into her when she was 16, he 20 and folks were scoping out their registry like it wasn't no thang. Now he openly details how he struggled with them being separated by her family (something he already admitted, btw). Suddenly the apocalypse is upon us?

For me personally I wasn't really reading the thread that much. I know originally people were saying that his behavior towards her as a teen was off. 

He said a year later his dad had to talk to him about his obsessing about Josie and then the year he graduated college he told his dad he only wanted to date a woman who was like Josie. So he wanted to date a woman who is exactly like a 16 year old he didn't date, I'm lost how this isn't seen as weird. 

[ihaveanexamintwodays]

This time of "separation" and non-friendship between them was what, 2 years? or less, based on when Tobby met & the fact that Jolton were very clearly properly a thing by the time of the Tobby engagement. So really Josie and Kelton were "friends" for a couple years before, yeah? 

With the way these fundies group off in little age cliques, with Tori-Carlin-Josie-Katie all bunched together in their family, it's perfectly reasonable for them to be friends, and it's heavily implied that there were mutual crushes going on. I'll believe it. I do think it's ridiculous that Kelton couldn't get over their little flirtation initially - though I am inclined to feel his "pining" was exaggerated in his version of their story, in attempts to sound romantic.

To me it seems more like, they were friends and had crushes but K & Gil *were actually reasonable parents for once* and said Josie was too young for a courtship, Josie told Kelton that if he couldn't be *just* friends than she couldn't be friends at all (how many women have said the same thing ha ugh), Kelton felt hurt and was hung up on her for longer than he should have been, but feelings persisted on both sides a couple years later & now they're both in a stable solid place to be adults. Is Kelton an immature dudebro who sounds as possessive of Josie as any other fundie man to his wife? Yeah. Does this hinder their functionality as a young couple? evidently not. 

[formergothardite]

11 minutes ago, ihaveanexamintwodays said:

though I am inclined to feel his "pining" was exaggerated in his version of their story, in attempts to sound romantic.

If it wasn't for the stories with his father I would agree. But I don't think he lied about the conversations he had with his dad, which means that he was looking for an adult woman who was exactly like this 16 year old he flirted with. I'm sorry, that is weird to me. 

[Hisey]

7 hours ago, TatiFish9 said:

Just because people marry at any other age, it doesn't mean the marriage will go well...???

 

Of course not. Marriages can fail at any age.

However, people were pointing out an objection with Josie and Kelton's relationship--youth and inexperience. Other people countered that couples do marry as teenagers and have done so for generations. This is also true.

However, that doesn't negate the problem of their youth and inexperience. It certainly can cause problems. Statistically such marriages are more likely to fail. That was the concern.

It's fine you want to negate the concern about youth and inexperience. Go ahead. But the fact that your grandma married at 16 doesn't do it.