Duggars by the Dozen 30 - On a Mission from GOD!

[Lurky]

The thing that's interesting about the court case is didn't Jill out at least 1 of the other victims in the TV interview?  I do really feel for Jinger and Joy but it seems like Jill and Jessa wanted it every way - to control the narrative into "no big deal, everyone has this in their own families" and make money off it with their interviews, AND to make even more money off it in the court case.

The problem I have is that almost every incest-abuse case that's prosecuted will pretty much give away the victims, even with redactions, because of ages, and the fact it's incest.  I really love and respect that FJ does NOT identify victims, but for example, in the Willis case, people who wanted to work out who the victims were could (I haven't, and would NOT advocate it, but I could do it on 2 or 3 google searches, eg).

Now this case is different because there was never a prosecution, and actually I don't think a prosecution was necessary IF the parents had arranged proper accredited therapy and support for Josh AND the victims.

I think it was important that this was revealed in the context of Michelle and Josh's own work accusing LGBT people of being child abusers, and wanting laws changed and rights curtailed based on the premise all LGBT people are dangerous and immoral.   The complete hypocrisy of it is super-important.  Of course I wish for the victims' sake that they were never named, but I can't see how anything could have been redacted enough so it wasn't clear, because of the nature of the abuse.  And even if the names hadn't been worked out, any guess of which 4 out of 5 sisters were abused would have been right on 3 of them.

It just reads like a cash grab that they're doing things this way.  They're not, eg, lobbying to change the law, using their political contacts and so on, and they're not talking about donating any of the money.  (Did they donate any from the Meghan Kelly/other interviews?)

[VelociRapture]

@LurkyWe already knew the three younger victims (Jessa, Jinger, and Joy.) The fourth was a toss up between Jana and Jill, due to the information in one witness statement saying the female witness was old enough to be pursuing a GED. Many of us suspected Jill was a victim, but we couldn't know for sure until she outed herself as a victim by giving the interview. 

The laundry room victim was really a toss up between Jessa and Jinger. We knew who the story victim was because the Washington county report never redacted that victim's age. We also could tell that Jill's name (and Jana's too) were too short to fill the redacted space where the laundry room victim's name was written. So Jinger could have been identified as the laundry room victim after Jessa gave the Megyn Kelly interview.

(I say "could have" because FJ didn't allow speculation, but anyone looking at the reports who took a bit of time could have figured it out at that point.)

[Jess]

@LurkyThere is an argument that Jill/Jessa outed Jinger. I don't know how great that will work in court but I am sure the defendants will try to argue that on motion at some point. For that reason it's extremely extremely odd that the four girls have the same attorney. I can say there is no way I would take all four as clients because of conflict of interest rules. Right now it's probably not misconduct to have them all as clients but the potential for an unwatchable conflict of interest is high. When/if that happens the firm should have to drop all four as clients and the girls would have to find their own lawyers. Their lawyers are taking a big risk which is abnormal to take.  Usually family members want their own attorneys anyway. It's most likely on contingency so it's not like it's saving money. 

If the city/county try to argue that their was no way to redact without revealing identities the girls will argue that they shouldn't have been revealed. It would be a disservice to the world if Josh had been able to continue being a hypocritical asshole, but the girls do have a constitutional right to privacy which imo protecting constitional right to privacy is more important then exposing Josh. It's very hard to seperate the two things but they are seperate legal issues.  With them being celebrity public figures the court could rule that this didn't violate their right to privacy it isn't a clear cut case with a simple answer and could easily go into years of appeals. They have a lot of good things going for them but they are still public figures so their privacy rights are less then ours ultimately a judge/jury will decide these issues.

[JesusCampSongs]

On 9/9/2017 at 4:49 PM, SassyPants said:

Wasn't there something that JB could have done along the way, that he never got around to doing, that could have prevented these records from ever being accessed? Am I remembering that correctly?

Had the molestations been reported to the proper authorities when they happened, odds are very high that none of us would know about them today. While I can't speak for how things work in Arkansas specifically, I spent the past four years working with children and families at a community mental health agency in a rural area, so I can comment more generall about how such a case would have been handled here, as I (unfortunately) have been involved in multiple situations where child-on-child sexual abuse occurred within a family. 

The first step would have been for the parents (or church elders, whatever) to notify either the law or CPS. Both agencies would have likely been involved, as Josh committed a crime (the law) and parental supervision, or lack thereof, may have played a role in the commission of the crime (CPS).

Since Josh was 14/15 at the time, he would have been referred to the Department of Juvenile Justice, or DJJ. On the first offense, he would have been given a diversion plan, which would include some combination of mental health evaluations, counseling services, community service, and enrollment in educational classes, to be completed over the course of six months. On subsequent offenses, he would have had to go to court and would have been placed on probation. This would have come with additional counseling (and likely a higher level of care, like intensive in-home services instead of outpatient therapy), more community service, and stricter DJJ monitoring. Subsequent offenses would have likely resulted in him being removed from the home and either sent to residential treatment in a specialized program or juvenile detention. In a possible, but less likely, scenario, his charges could have been bumped from juvenile court to adult court. 

From CPS' perspective, the Duggars would have also been treated somewhat leniently as this was the first time the issue had occurred and the molestations were perpetrated by another child and not an adult. The family would have been investigated, referred for a family assessment, and then given a case plan to complete. The case plan would have probably included education and parenting classes for JB and Michelle, therapy assessments for all of the kids, individual and family therapy for the affected daughters, and the creation of a workable safety plan that would ensure that Josh would not reoffend. The case would probably stay open for 3-6 months after the implementation of the case plan to ensure compliance. If everything went okay and nothing happened, that would be that. If Josh continued to sexually abuse his sisters, the case would have remained open, and there would have been more severe consequences, such as Josh being sent off to residential treatment (more likely) or the kids being removed from the home (less likely). 

Had Josh successfully completed a diversion program, he wouldn't have had any charges on his record at all. Had he successfully completed court and probation, he would have had charges but his record would have been sealed. His participation in therapy would have been protected by HIPAA. 

Had the family cooperated in a CPS investigation, the records would have been confidential, and the kids' mental health records would have also been protected by HIPAA. 

More importantly, when the person from Oprah's show called local law enforcement, they would have been able to pull the records showing that the matter had already been investigated and dealt with, and the same would go for CPS. Without new allegations, or some indication that the abuse was ongoing or continued past the initial investigation, neither law enforcement nor CPS would have opened up a new case. This means that the interviews that are the subject of this lawsuit wouldn't have happened in the first place. 

As for Josh being part of the lawsuit, I've always suspected that Josh went against everyone's wishes when he filed the initial motion to join his sisters' lawsuit. Perhaps he asked JB or the girls' attorney to join and was told no, or didn't learn of the suit until after it had been filed, but either way, he went running to what was probably the only attorney he knew at the eleventh hour, resulting in the original slapdash motion being filed. Once the horse had left the barn, the family had to deal with the fallout, and they probably reverted to their tried-and-true formula of sweeping it under the rug in public and maneuvering Josh out of the way in private. 

[Lurky]

@Jess I too wonder why they all have the same lawyer, given the situations are different:  Joy was under 18 when she was outed; Jill and Jessa chose to go on TV to talk about it, etc.   Plus I would have thought that eg if Jinger and Joy didn't like the Jessa/Jill interview, they could bring that up too as unwelcome to them.

@JesusCampSongs  Didn't Josh use the family attorney to launch his raiding party on the lawsuit, though?  I don't see how that could have been unsanctioned, surely?  (It also makes me severely question the lawyer's abilities, too, because Josh trying to join never made any ounce of sense on any level)

[JesusCampSongs]

29 minutes ago, Lurky said:

 

@JesusCampSongs  Didn't Josh use the family attorney to launch his raiding party on the lawsuit, though?  I don't see how that could have been unsanctioned, surely?  (It also makes me severely question the lawyer's abilities, too, because Josh trying to join never made any ounce of sense on any level)

The family isn't using that attorney for this case, though, which is why I think he snuck and went to him behind everyone's back. If they were planning on involving him from the beginning, they would have gotten him better legal representation on the front end. 

[Bad Wolf]

 

If this hadn't come out, Josh would still have lost his FRC job after Ashley Madison. So if he's saying this has spoiled his chances for a job (and I don't know if he is), it's only partly true. Poor little Joshy. 

[Jess]

Josh's stuff couldn't have been well planned. It was filed past the statute of limitations for intentional torts in Arkansas so he should lose most of his causes of action for that alone. If it had been planned I don't think they would have missed the SOL filing deadline. If his lawyer was intelligent I don't think he would have filed a case past the SOL deadline. Plus The lawyer first tried to use improper procedure to join the case. None of that strikes me as a brilliant legal mind litigating a planned case. I hope the lawyer and Josh get hit with sanctions.

[CorruptionInc.]

Thank you @JesusCampSongs for explaining how it would work. So grateful that there are people like you.

What I take from your explanation is that the Duggars would not want to have parenting classes / training etc. They would find it abhorrent that anyone was suggesting their way was not the only way / good enough.

[Chocolatedefrauded]

That makes sense, them not wanting anyone looking into their family dynamics, etc. Would they be smart enough to realize while it was happening that the result of reporting it would be therapy, parenting classes, etc? Or would they assume they could just tell the police & everyone "he knows he did something bad, we discussed it & punished him appropriately & he won't do it again?"

Thinking that sounds silly to us but I doubt they had any clue how things work. Plus the koolaid thinking that their way is so great, they were raising super special kids through God's training, etc.

[KnittingOwl]

On 9/7/2017 at 2:38 PM, onekidanddone said:

Spanakopita, souvlaki, avgolemeno?

Avgolemeno! Yum! That is one of my favorite comfort foods. I still haven't found a place in my new city for it. I should do more investigating. 

[SassyPants]

I'm wondering what kind of CPS recommendations would be made in the case of a family with 14 kids in a 3 bedroom ranch, with some kids, at times,  sleeping on couches, in a home where molestation had occurred ? 

Obviously Josh needed professional counseling. IMO, so did JB and M. 

[nst]

21 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

 

Obviously Josh needed professional counseling. IMO, so did JB and M. 

which again defines how much JB and M swept it under the rug.  They were the adults. They knew better. They got away free. It just as sick. 

[Eternalbluepearl]

30 minutes ago, nst said:

which again defines how much JB and M swept it under the rug.  They were the adults. They knew better. They got away free. It just as sick. 

It also irks me the way that JimBob and Michelle have used the excuse that "it happens in lots of families..." So does birth control of some sort. So does therapy for family members who need help. So does real education. So does a mother who is capable of caring for her child past 6 months old. There are a lot of things that happen in lots of families. Sexual abuse is the only one JimBob and Michelle seem okay with and that disturbs me. 

[nst]

3 minutes ago, Eternalbluepearl said:

It also irks me the way that JimBob and Michelle have used the excuse that "it happens in lots of families..."

it may happen in lots of families as they claim... but the smart educated people know how to deal with it. REALISTICALLY and not cover it up and then go on tv and pretend they are perfect.  Yes Jessa your family pretended to be perfect. 

[Four is Enough]

@JesusCampSongs, what you described is what my son went through, except because of his recalcitrance in admitting to his actions, (he was an offender) his therapy dragged on for years, including in residence therapy, and Thank God it was available. The state isn't Arkansas, it's a Mid Atlantic state, but his record is sealed even though he completed therapy after his 18th birthday.

@CorruptionInc., i while our son was undergoing his treatment, we as parents had to go through family therapy as well, and we met with other parents in the same sort of situation. IN our group were a few families where the assaults had been incest. There was NO contact between the offender and the victims until the therapists for the victims determined that reunification might be possible. This was far down the line, because both offender and victims had to be progressing with their therapy.

 Michelle and Jim Bob would have had to let Josh stay with some other family , or another relative, or in a juvenile residential program. I remember them stating that they spurned a therapeutic treatment program of any sort because Jesus. (Because John would have been exposed to bad people.) This was a huge mistake. They should be held accountable for it.

I have to say that it was in the residential program that my son made the most progress. While the boys there may have been denying their own peccadilloes, and I'm not saying they were, they were certainly incisive with each other, and cut right into the heart of what the boy was talking about, denying, or trying to obfuscate. Josh could have done with that kind of truth.

 

[justoneoftwo]

The thing that hurts them most in my mind is that the parts (if I recall correctly) that were not redacted were news worthy.  The story is drastically different if the victims were family.  The story is drastically different if a victim is 5. Unfortunately I'm not sure what could have been done about that.  

[JesusCampSongs]

20 hours ago, CorruptionInc. said:

What I take from your explanation is that the Duggars would not want to have parenting classes / training etc. They would find it abhorrent that anyone was suggesting their way was not the only way / good enough.

Pretty much, and this is nearly universal among fundies. They revile mental health professionals and social workers. and while they prefer to couch their (entirely unjustified) hatred of these professions in terms of religious and civil liberties, the truth is that they cannot handle being told what to do by a bunch of women (both professions are heavily female-dominated), who are, by definition, highly educated and working outside of the home. Every aspect of their lives is marinated in misogyny, and this is no exception. 

I also can't think of any therapist who wouldn't raise high holy hell with CPS over parents that blamed their daughters for being sexually assaulted by their older brother and then forced them to "forgive him" and swallow their emotions to preserve family peace. 

6 hours ago, SassyPants said:

I'm wondering what kind of CPS recommendations would be made in the case of a family with 14 kids in a 3 bedroom ranch, with some kids, at times,  sleeping on couches, in a home where molestation had occurred ? 

Obviously Josh needed professional counseling. IMO, so did JB and M. 

CPS won't take kids away due to poverty or being crammed in a house, unless it's REALLY unsafe, like...structurally unsound or full of vermin or really disgusting. What they would do is try to help the family find better housing, or address minor safety issues, like beds blocking doors, no smoke detectors, or insufficient childproofing. They can't remove kids because they live in poverty and their parents refuse to use birth control. They can only remove kids over imminent safety issues, like getting beaten to the point where their health is at risk, being left alone in the home, witnessing drug use/manufacturing, not being fed or taken to the doctor, living with a batterer or sex offender. That kind of thing. 

In this situation, they would have probably required the family to house Josh elsewhere, with a friend or family member where there were no female minors, until the team (DJJ, CPS, his therapist, his victims' therapist) agreed that he no longer posed a risk to his sisters. So, building houses for Jesus would have probably been okay, had they also gotten him real therapy to go along with it.  

3 hours ago, Four is Enough said:

I have to say that it was in the residential program that my son made the most progress. While the boys there may have been denying their own peccadilloes, and I'm not saying they were, they were certainly incisive with each other, and cut right into the heart of what the boy was talking about, denying, or trying to obfuscate. 

Nothing like group therapy to cut through the crap! Seriously, though, I'm glad your son was able to get the help that he needed and get back on the right track.

[nickelodeon]

5 hours ago, JesusCampSongs said:

Pretty much, and this is nearly universal among fundies. They revile mental health professionals and social workers.

True! Anyone interested in learning more about the anti-CPS, anti-social work, anti-healthcare discourse ubiquitous in the fundie-homeschool world should look up the HSLDA. This organization was very deliberate about convincing fundie parents that the government was just waiting for the first opportunity to snatch their kids.

[JMO]

Did anyone else watch all the birthday videos for Michelle? There was a long one from the smuggars where Anna said that Michelle always spends the night the first night after a new grand baby is born to take care of the baby so that the parents can sleep. 

[JordynDarby5]

20 minutes ago, JMO said:

Did anyone else watch all the birthday videos for Michelle? There was a long one from the smuggars where Anna said that Michelle always spends the night the first night after a new grand baby is born to take care of the baby so that the parents can sleep. 

She says that? I find that really hard to believe.

[singsingsing]

4 minutes ago, JordynDarby5 said:

She says that? I find that really hard to believe.

I don't. Not at all. Michelle loves babies. She hasn't had her own baby for 7 or 8 years now. I can totally believe that she'd move in and be around the baby 24/7 if they'd let her.

[SassyPants]

Day one, for a breast feeding infant, which all Duggars are, would not allow a mother the luxury of sleeping all night. Sure, MD might be spending the night, but a Duggar mama is not sleeping all night on that first night.

[Lurky]

8 hours ago, singsingsing said:

I can totally believe that she'd move in and be around the baby 24/7 if they'd let her.

Me too - then at 6 months, hand them off and not give a damn again.

[aprilx]

What does JD say he's doing in Texas at the start of his happy birthday mum, I can't make it out