John Kelly -- Bringing Order to the West Wing?

[formergothardite]

Ignoring current problems because of something respectable someone did in the past is very unwise. 

[formergothardite]

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2017/10/john_kelly_s_week_of_silence_speaks_volumes_about_the_chief_of_staff.html

Quote

 Kelly is allowing himself, and his distinguished record of military service, to act as a shield for Trump’s fabrications. In the fallout over Trump’s condolence call to a widow, Kelly has issued and refused to correct false statements, and he has allowed his service to be invoked as grounds not to question him. This has gone on for more than a week, while Kelly shows no repentance. He is losing the presumption of honesty.

While Otter might not view saying things that are not true as a lie, I do and if Kelly did this on accident, he should have apologized. His refusal to do so makes it appear that he lied on purpose. 

Quote

The next day, Kelly appeared at the press briefing. He repeatedly denounced Wilson for having “listened in” to the call

Him criticizing her for "listening in" is just ridiculous. What was she supposed to do when they put it on speaker? Stick her fingers in her ears and start shrieking "LA, LA, LA" so she couldn't hear anything? Clearly the family didn't have a problem with her hearing the conversation and Kelly is wrong for criticizing her for this.

Quote

Kelly’s attacks on Wilson emboldened Trump. That night, Trump tweeted that Wilson “was SECRETLY on a very personal call, and gave a total lie on content!” But Kelly was wrong on all counts. Not only was Wilson innocent of subterfuge on the call; she also hadn’t said what Kelly attributed to her in 2015.

When you are wrong, especially if what you've said can damage the character of another person the RESPECTABLE  thing to do is apologize and retract the statement. Kelly had not done so. He is not immune to criticism just because his son died.

Quote

 

Reporter: No, he was wrong yesterday in talking about getting the money. The money was secured before she came into Congress.

Sanders: If you want to go after Gen. Kelly, that’s up to you. But I think that that—if you want to get into a debate with a four-star Marine general, I think that that’s something highly inappropriate.

 

Sanders puts forth a rather scary idea that the media shouldn't question a four star Marine general. That for some reason they are beyond reproach even when they have obviously made a false statement.

Quote

 

If ever there were a tangle of falsehoods that one man could straighten out, this is it. Kelly heard the phone call. He made the bogus claim about Wilson’s speech. He’s the witness who, according to Sanders, saw Wilson grandstand about the FBI building in some still-unspecified appearance. He’s the man whose military authority the White House invokes as a substitute for evidence. Kelly must tell the truth: Is Wilson’s account of the call a fabrication? Is he mistaken that she took credit for funding the FBI building? Where and when did he see her grandstand about it? Or is that persistent claim by Sanders baseless? And does Kelly agree that no one should challenge the word of a four-star general?

By answering these questions, Kelly could begin to show that he’s serious about cleaning up the White House. If he doesn’t, everyone from Trump down will get the message that the lying can go on. And we can all stop listening to Kelly’s lectures about decency and courage.

 

 

[OtterRuletheWorld]

Says more about you than Kelly.

That I can read this and not need CNN or Fox News to tell me what to think about it? I am perfectly capable of forming my own opinions.

[formergothardite]

Trump and Kelly's attacks on Wilson have helped lead to threats on Wilson. This is the point where a respectable person would step up and apologize for their part in attempting to smear Wilson. Kelly called her an "empty barrel" and sided with Trump who was calling her a liar even though all signs point to her telling the truth.  

If Kelly is an honorable person, he will step up and admit he mischaracterized what she said in that speech and that she had every right to listen in to the conversation since the family considers her part of the family and had no problem with her hearing the conversation.

[Botkinetti]

I am struck by the apparent lack of integrity on Kelly's part. I admit that I had a brief spurt of hope when he was appointed that maybe some kind of order would be imposed. That hope has now died.

Rufus knows that I had to nod my head and appear to agree to what I considered idiotic things at work ( policy changes or rah- rah crap or the latest management idea designed to showcase how brilliant they were  ) but I never had to smear other people or outright lie to keep my job. While nodding may have been hypocritical I had no problems sleeping at night.

[formergothardite]

It is hardly like he will be plunged into poverty and not be able to eat if he quit over this. He could have refused to defend Trump. He could have refused to call Wilson names. He could have refused to act all shocked that she listed to the call when it was on speaker. He could have refused to issue false statements about Wilson.

But he didn't. No matter what he did in the past that was respectable, his current actions do not show someone with a strong moral character. 

[AnywhereButHere]

We may as well add hypocrite to his accumulation of labels. It's not like he wasn't listening in on the other end of the conversation. What makes his "eavesdropping" more acceptable than Congresswoman Wilson's?

There are many people I hold conflicting opinions about.

George W was a crap ass president, but I think I'd enjoying hanging with him at a social gathering. If stories I've heard about him through the years are true, he's a decent man trying to do good things. He was just supremely bad at them as president.

I respect John McCain's service to his country. While I may not agree with his principles, I think he tries to hold to them in his choices and decisions. Until the Palin debacle, and I did lose respect for him, that he would allow himself to sell out to what he had to see was a trainwreck.

Flake and Corker I've never agreed with in any way. I think their speaking out against Caligula is great, and I appreciate it (that they both have little to lose by doing it at this point diminishes the effort in my eyes, but hey, maybe it will start a revolution).

Then there's family. I have several Tea Party Republicans, in all their glory, in my family. I despise their politics, but knowing the good things about them generally save me from screaming and throwing crescent rolls at them during Thanksgiving dinner (sometimes I imagine it though...).

Point being - respect can be earned and diminished based on a person's current actions. It's not a static state. General Kelly may have done many things worthy of respect in the past, but he's currently selling himself out, and how each person sees him going forward is going to be measured by our personal scales.

[Smoochie]

LOL I have some Trump lovers in my family ... I love them dearly, but, it truly boggles my mind.   We have agreed to disagree and not talk politics!

My one aunt is a true liberal, hippie chick from back in the day and her daughter and SIL are Trumpers, you go figure!

[OtterRuletheWorld]

LOL I have some Trump lovers in my family ... I love them dearly, but, it truly boggles my mind.   We have agreed to disagree and not talk politics!
My one aunt is a true liberal, hippie chick from back in the day and her daughter and SIL are Trumpers, you go figure!

I know a lot of Trump supporters like that. It is strange, but I wonder if it has to do with being turned off by the current behavior and attitude of the left. If you are raised to be liberal, rather than to be a freethinking individual, but you don't feel 100 percent in, it is possible you are going to flee.

People tend to become fundie-like with politics too, but it doesn't seem to raise eyebrows to bring your kid to a protest with signs or to throw a "raised right" shirt on them. Young kids don't really understand the complexities of this stuff, so while it may seem like a good idea to teach your kid to use their freedom of speech to stand up for what they believe, maybe it is questionable if your kid is not fully grasping the issue and has a good understanding of why people believe what they are protesting against.

Whenever I see a kid protesting, I tend to think of Westboro Baptist Church, just on a political level. I think it is fine to teach your kid about political activism, but you don't need to use YOUR platform to do so. Figure out what your kids find important and support them with that. You could research together, have discussions and be open to the idea that maybe your kid isn't going to be passionate about what you are.

[Destiny]

Current behavior and attitude of the left? Freethinking individual? LOLOLOL
Guess what, I was raised trumper style. I became a liberal because of being a freethinking individual, you arrogant ass.
I do actually agree with you about taking kids to protests they don’t understand, especially if they are carrying gross signs with bullshit about aborted babies though, so there’s that.

[OtterRuletheWorld]

Current behavior and attitude of the left? Freethinking individual? LOLOLOL
Guess what, I was raised trumper style. I became a liberal because of being a freethinking individual, you arrogant ass.
I do actually agree with you about taking kids to protests they don’t understand, especially if they are carrying gross signs with bullshit about aborted babies though, so there’s that.

Obviously it can go both ways. I was going off the example above. I am not sure how that makes me an ignorant ass, but okay. You are further proving my point. You were raised "Trumper Style" and it didn't work. I am assuming you found cracks, questioned what you were told and kept moving away from how you were raised.

I always find it best to approach things like religion and politics with kids without expressing my opinion and really feel it is important to teach kids to ask questions.

[formergothardite]

I am going to tell my kids patriarchy is wrong, racists laws are wrong, police brutality is wrong, allowing stores to discriminate against groups of people is wrong, allowing companies to use "religion" as an excuse to make sure their company insurance doesn't cover certain medical things is wrong. 

Are you saying you wouldn't tell your children that religions that oppress people are wrong?

Edited October 28, 2017 by formergothardite

[OtterRuletheWorld]

To add: The above poster mentioned her aunt was pretty liberal and her children ended up being Trump supporters. I pointed out I have seen the same type of scenario multiple times recently. There is no denying that anytime you question "liberal" ideas and got shouted at or shut down really quickly. That is enough to to make some people turn away. It cannot course go both ways, but I do notice the left seems to have a set of ideals, whereas the right (currently) seems more eclectic. For what it is worth, I can understand where hoping to get all on the same page is an attempt to unite the party, but it isn't realistic to assume all liberals (or conservatives) are going to agree on all issues. It becomes a "party over issue" situation and hardly fosters free thinking.

[Ali]

1 hour ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

If you are raised to be liberal, rather than to be a freethinking individual, but you don't feel 100 percent in, it is possible you are going to flee.

So liberals are not free thinkers and Conservatives are? I am guessing Universities are liberal indoctrination centers.

My parents have almost always voted Republican and they saw right through Trump.

I agree somewhat with you about children and protests. I would not consider taking one of my children to a protest until they were old enough to understand. They would also need to ask me to go and explain why they want to go.

From around the time I was a teenager, my mom wouldn't tell me what she thought about something like politics without me first telling her what I thought. She made an effort to not force her beliefs on my and I appreciate it now. I plan to do the same with my children.

13 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I am going to tell my kids patriarchy is wrong, racists laws are wrong, police brutality is wrong, allowing stores to discriminate against groups of people is wrong, allowing companies to use "religion" as an excuse to make sure their company insurance doesn't cover certain medical things is wrong. 

Are you saying you wouldn't tell your children that religions that oppress people are wrong?

This! Many political beliefs could be debated by intelligent people. Racism and taking away health care from people are unacceptable.

[Destiny]

So liberals are not free thinkers and Conservatives are? I am guessing Universities are liberal indoctrination centers.

Right? So fucking offensive. Of course no freethinking person could be a liberal.

[formergothardite]

14 minutes ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

but I do notice the left seems to have a set of ideals, whereas the right (currently) seems more eclectic

Having been raised in the right and living surrounded by mostly republicans, I would say that the right has a pretty damn set of ideals.

~the ebil gays, stores should be able to discriminate against them

~ Oppress the ebil anyone who isn't a Christian, they should be second hand citizens. Muslim holiday displays on public property would destroy America. Christian displays should be stuck all over everything. Anyone who says anything different hates America.

~Muslims are bad.

~black folks who protest police brutality, even if peacefully are bad.

~police worship

~tax breaks on the rich

~Christians are persecuted in America

Are there some politicians and some people who aren't into all that? Yes, but most of the people I grew up with and I know all agree that these are conservative ideals. They look down on the more "liberal" conservatives who think gays shouldn't be discriminated against or that dare to bring up the idea that the police aren't perfect and might be murdering black people. 

 

[OtterRuletheWorld]

8 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I am going to tell my kids patriarchy is wrong, racists laws are wrong, police brutality is wrong, allowing stores to discriminate against groups of people is wrong, allowing companies to use "religion" as an excuse to make sure their company insurance doesn't cover certain medical things is wrong. 

Are you saying you wouldn't tell your children that religions that oppress people are wrong?

I would discuss these things with my children, encourage questions, etc. I have conversations, encourage them to think about these issues and ask questions. 

I want them to understand why oppression is wrong, I want them to question what is wrong. I want my kids to be critical thinkers. I don't say "Being mean to _____ kids makes you suck at life" but to have them have a deeper understanding of issues. If a kid is told they SHOULD be jerks to ___ kids, I would want my kids to question WHY those kids feel it is okay to be jerks. What made them think that way, how it makes people feel and how it could impact their lives. You don't know what conversations I have had with my children about religion or oppression of people, so it isn't so much a "wouldn't" as discussions I have already had. The conclusion my kids have come to is a bit deeper than a simple "religious oppression is wrong", but that is part of it. I want them to think about why some people may think this is the right thing to do. 

 

[formergothardite]

If they discussed it and came to the conclusion that religious oppression is acceptable, would tell them you think it is wrong?

[OtterRuletheWorld]

1 minute ago, formergothardite said:

If they discussed it and came to the conclusion that religious oppression is acceptable, would tell them you think it is wrong?

I would absolutely tell them my opinion is very different.

[Ali]

I feel like I should clarify my above statement about not trying to influence my children's political beliefs. I plan on raising children who don't care about skin color, don't want to discriminate against other religions, etc.

11 minutes ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

I want them to think about why some people may think this is the right thing to do. 

We had a poster who was pregnant and a porn star who wanted to discriminate against Muslims. How would you handle this with your children?

Edited October 28, 2017 by Ali

[formergothardite]

5 minutes ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

I would absolutely tell them my opinion is very different.

But would you tell her it is wrong to use religion to oppress people? 

[OtterRuletheWorld]

12 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

Having been raised in the right and living surrounded by mostly republicans, I would say that the right has a pretty damn set of ideals.

~the ebil gays, stores should be able to discriminate against them

~ Oppress the ebil anyone who isn't a Christian, they should be second hand citizens. Muslim holiday displays on public property would destroy America. Christian displays should be stuck all over everything. Anyone who says anything different hates America.

~Muslims are bad.

~black folks who protest police brutality, even if peacefully are bad.

~police worship

~tax breaks on the rich

~Christians are persecuted in America

Are there some politicians and some people who aren't into all that? Yes, but most of the people I grew up with and I know all agree that these are conservative ideals. They look down on the more "liberal" conservatives who think gays shouldn't be discriminated against or that dare to bring up the idea that the police aren't perfect and might be murdering black people. 

 

I am not disagreeing with you here at all. The left is just as guilty of this though and to the right leaning person who, say, supports LGBTQ issues, but disagrees with single payer healthcare...or wants to see tax reform and are shouted out for feeling differently, it is unlikely to make them more liberal. It can go both ways. I was basing this off the liberal aunt with trump supporting kids. 

22 minutes ago, Destiny said:

Right? So fucking offensive. Of course no freethinking person could be a liberal.

That is not what I said. I think anyone who subscribes to all things conservative or all things liberal may not be an incredibly freethinking individual. I think blind support of a party or politician OR religion is problematic. 

[formergothardite]

9 minutes ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

I think blind support of a party or politician OR religion is problematic. 

Says the person who wouldn't say mocking a war hero is disrespectful.  You don't exactly come off as open minded, especially when it comes to Trump and Kelly. 

[Ali]

16 minutes ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

I am not disagreeing with you here at all. The left is just as guilty of this though and to the right leaning person who, say, supports LGBTQ issues, but disagrees with single payer healthcare...or wants to see tax reform and are shouted out for feeling differently, it is unlikely to make them more liberal. It can go both ways. I was basing this off the liberal aunt with trump supporting kids. 

I need to have a certain cancer screening every one to three years. I have had precancerous growths removed twice. I also have high blood pressure. If I don't have access to affordable health care, I might die much earlier than I would have had with health care.

My one and a half year old either has asthma or just needs time for his lungs to recover from RSV. Without insurance, a 90 day supply of his breathing treatment costs almost $2000. Watching him struggle to breath is not an experience I would wish on any parent.

Our high deductible insurance has messed us financially. Without the medical costs, we would be in decent shape financially. Instead we are struggling to get out of debt.

Those who pat themselves on the back for being pro life while working towards cutting taxes for the rich and making health care less accessible for me and my family makes my blood boil.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Ali

[OtterRuletheWorld]

I feel like I should clarify my above statement about not trying to influence my children's political beliefs. I plan on raising children who don't care about skin color, don't want to discriminate against other religions, etc.
We had a poster who was pregnant and a porn star who wanted to discriminate against Muslims. How would you handle this with your children?

I come from this a bit differently. Discriminating against skin color is wrong. I can't stop there though. It likely does matter to people of different races or faiths than my own. Race and religion is often part of who people are and I want to respect that. Claiming "I don't see color" seems dismissive.

I need to have a certain cancer screening every one to three years. I have had precancerous growths removed twice. I also have high blood pressure. If I don't have access to affordable health care, I might die much earlier than I would have had with health care.
My one and a half year old either has asthma or just needs time for his lungs to recover from RSV. Without insurance, a 90 day supply of his breathing treatment costs almost $2000. Watching him struggle to breath is not an experience I would wish on any parent.
Our high deductible insurance has messed us financially. Without the medical costs, we would be in decent shape financially. Instead we are struggling to get out of debt.
Those who pat themselves on the back for being pro life while working towards cutting taxes for the rich and making health care less accessible for me and my family makes my blood boil.

None of that was a statement about how I lean when it comes to these issues. They were examples.

I am also doubtful all liberals or conservatives absolutely agree on how healthcare should be approached.