JinJer 28: Guns & Roses

[Destiny]

Previously, JinJer went to dinner. There were flowers, and much was made of them. 

 

[Greendoor]

Was hoping for Jinger & Jeremy - Guns & Roses;  but this will have to do.

 

[Destiny]

4 minutes ago, Greendoor said:

Was hoping for Jinger & Jeremy - Guns & Roses;  but this will have to do.

 

I like it. The motion passes. 

[SapphireSlytherin]

@Jinder Roles said from the previous thread:

Quote

Honest question: why do you live in a diverse neighborhood with a high population of refugees if you believe every "illegal" (ugh, I hate that term") should be sent back? 

Our refugee neighbors are LEGALLY HERE. Huge difference. I'm not a racist, and I'm not prejudiced against anyone (other than assholes). I don't care one iota what color someone's skin is - which is awesome because my family is also diverse in its makeup. It's not about where they're from or how they look. It's about BREAKING THE LAW.

 

 

[Coconut Flan]

Folks, it's probably time to take the duel elsewhere.  Politics is the area I believe you're trying to find. 

[justoneoftwo]

12 minutes ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

@Jinder Roles said from the previous thread:

Our refugee neighbors are LEGALLY HERE. Huge difference. I'm not a racist, and I'm not prejudiced against anyone (other than assholes). I don't care one iota what color someone's skin is - which is awesome because my family is also diverse in its makeup. It's not about where they're from or how they look. It's about BREAKING THE LAW.

 

 

Its also interesting that when people are forced (or chose) to live outside the law other problems can result.  Both for them and others they interact with.  

Just a thought to add complexity to a topic that didn't need more complexity. 

[Jinder Roles]

@Coconut Flan Don't worry. I have neither time nor patience to argue this.

In other news; DFO posted a pic of Babe and Baaaabe at the aforementioned  mystery wedding. 

Babe wore a sleeveless cocktail dress. 

 

[Irishy]

https://youtu.be/0rR9IaXH1M0

Jim Jeffries on guns. Part 1, I know I'm late, but..... The funniest thing you'll ever watch. 

[FundieFarmer]

A Duggar girl without sleeves? Truly apocalyptic. For those of us who don't actively follow the Duggars...what is this world coming to!? Jill R would be horrified! Now how can she justify telling her girls to wear shirts under their shirts!?

[Four is Enough]

Sleeveless cocktail dress? With a SLIT!! She looks gorgeous!

 

@amandaaries said, pages ago:

'

Quote

m not sure I'm following your line of thought on the names. especially about our media changing names to be flashier.  My point was that many people select names for their children based on their family or cultural heritage.  If we can celebrate being Polish-American, can't we use a Polish-based name? If not, why not? People can learn to pronounce new names, and it's beneficial to continue to learn about others as we get older. So why do we need to Anglicize names?

My point wasn't that we need to Anglicize names, by any means. My point was that for some reason, it was done at American entries by American immigrations workers arbitrarily, or so it seemed, or even by immigrants themselves. 

Possible reasons were that "american" names were more anonymous, more "american", more glamorous? 

I find the loss of family names to be near tragic in scope. People can't find their ancestors or their real history

I just know that the changing of names seems to have happened on a fairly large scale.

[Destiny]

Jinger, I want your dress!

She looks fucking amazing. 

[singsingsing]

Please humour me while I put on my genealogist and historian hats for a minute to address something from the previous thread, and then I swear I'll get back on topic.

No one can document their entire family back to the 1300s. No one. To be able to confidently document even one single line back that far is incredibly difficult. To document every line is literally impossible. I don't care if you have a professional genealogist relative who swears up and down that he did it, if grandma swears it's true, or if you're the Queen of England. It's 100% impossible. Even having all your family lines documented completely back to the early 1700s is next to impossible. I'm not confident about much in life, but of this I am absolutely certain. If someone assured you it was possible, they were either lying or misguided themselves.

[Coconut Flan]

I can say I'm impressed with Jinger's dress also.  That's several years more sophisticated than anything available at her old home.  Plus it was posted on the DFO facebook!  They are accepting her new style it seems. 

[Destiny]

That@singsingsing. My family is really into that stuff, and while it’s true that there is one specific line we can trace to sometime in the 1400s, it’s by no means all of them. The amount of work it takes to do that is staggering and definitely not something that would be done for all lines.

[apandaaries]

52 minutes ago, Four is Enough said:

My point wasn't that we need to Anglicize names, by any means. My point was that for some reason, it was done at American entries by American immigrations workers arbitrarily, or so it seemed, or even by immigrants themselves. 

Possible reasons were that "american" names were more anonymous, more "american", more glamorous? 

I find the loss of family names to be near tragic in scope. People can't find their ancestors or their real history

I just know that the changing of names seems to have happened on a fairly large scale.

I just wanted to be clear about the original words to which I responded, so I'm dragging your original quote from the previous thread over here: "Many immigrants did strive to fit in, changing their names and learning English, or making their children learn English. I'm not saying that was completely right or completely wrong, it just happened.  Now, it does seem that more immigrants expect to be treated as if they are still in the home country."

The original wording seems to imply that name changing was beneficial for social assimilation, and that "it just happened," without social pressure. Immigration workers didn't change names "arbitrarily;" they Anglicized the names they saw intentionally. People were expected to completely assimilate without hanging on to their old world because most Americans were racist (reading anything from those eras makes it appallingly clear just how accepted casual, "everyday" racism was).  It does appear to be the case that some names were intentionally changed under odd circumstances (as in The Godfather), but that's still changing someone's name.

My personal stance is that renaming people without their consent is cruel, disconnecting them from their past and their culture because Americans act affronted by unfamiliar names and/or sound patterns.  Behaving as though English-speaking Americans can't learn new names is ridiculous; Americans can refuse to learn "ethnic" names (usually due to prejudice, unconscious or otherwise), but that's a rather close-minded approach to other people. I keep referring to that Munoz* piece, and here's a quick quote, "My stepfather's experience with the Anglicization of his name - Antonio to Tony - ties into something bigger than learning English. For him, the erasure of his name was about deference and subservience. Becoming Tony gave him a measure of access as he struggled to learn English and get more fieldwork." [bolding mine]

Munoz's piece is about the undercurrents of racism in demanding that someone change their name or its pronunciation to accommodate those in power in the dominant culture. It's not that these renamings have occurred randomly; they are a response to the prejudice and racism so prevalent in American society.  People deal with the external stress differently, and for some, taking an "American" name is an easier way to navigate society. If that's their choice, sure, but if it's because Americans are too racist and prejudiced to learn something new, then that's an abysmal statement about our society. 

*I know this should be spelled with a different "n" but my keyboard doesn't know Spanish and I don't know how to change that. 

[singsingsing]

12 minutes ago, Destiny said:

That@singsingsing. My family is really into that stuff, and while it’s true that there is one specific line we can trace to sometime in the 1400s, it’s by no means all of them. The amount of work it takes to do that is staggering and definitely not something that would be done for all lines.

Absolutely! That, plus the lack of records. Many records are lost, or simply never existed in the first place. That's a hurdle that unfortunately can't be overcome.

[onekidanddone]

55 minutes ago, Jinder Roles said:

In other news; DFO posted a pic of Babe and Baaaabe at the aforementioned  mystery wedding. 

Babe wore a sleeveless cocktail dress. 

Eye trap!   Nike.  But really the dress looks nice.

[singsingsing]

I still really want to know whose wedding this was!

[Dugg@rTime]

AmandaAries, regarding the changing of immigrants' names to more American or Anglicised names, this was unlikely to be part of some great mission to get rid of their heritage.*

When researching our family tree my aunt had some trouble at around the time period where many were emigrating to Canada,  late 1700's/early. 1800's iirc) and the individual family members illiteracy seems to be the main part of the problem. Sometimes in the records the name is spelled phonetically, sometimes it's correct, but often it's  recorded as another, very similar and more common, local name. In many cases the same person is recorded with several spellings (and therefore different names) in the course of their life. Genealogy seems like a bit of a nightmare, and I'm glad my aunt has done it all , so I don't have to.

For people getting off the boat with names sounding entirely foreign to the immigration clerks, what's the clerk to do if the person is illiterate, or doesn't have the English language skills to pass on the spelling of their name? The clerk records what he knows and is familiar with. Remember that the infrastructure of the day was not geared up for equal opportunities, and I don't imagine the working conditions or time constraints helped matters either.

 

*im not saying individual cases didn't occur, just that if my own family tree is anything to go by most name changes are not deliberate. Hanlon's razor and all that.

[karen77]

49 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

Please humour me while I put on my genealogist and historian hats for a minute to address something from the previous thread, and then I swear I'll get back on topic.

No one can document their entire family back to the 1300s. No one. To be able to confidently document even one single line back that far is incredibly difficult. To document every line is literally impossible. I don't care if you have a professional genealogist relative who swears up and down that he did it, if grandma swears it's true, or if you're the Queen of England. It's 100% impossible. Even having all your family lines documented completely back to the early 1700s is next to impossible. I'm not confident about much in life, but of this I am absolutely certain. If someone assured you it was possible, they were either lying or misguided themselves.

Sometimes you can...if they lived in castles!! (or manors, really)

[jerkit]

People on FB are certain Jinge is knocked up from that picture. I can't see anything.

[Dugg@rTime]

1 minute ago, jerkit said:

People on FB are certain Jinge is knocked up from that picture. I can't see anything.

I can't either. The dress isn't figure hugging,  that's evident from the way the hem sits, so I reckon it's just not as fitted as you'd expect a, gasp!Nike girl to wear, and therefore hangs further from her body, therefore baby bump, obvs 

[JermajestyDuggar]

4 minutes ago, jerkit said:

People on FB are certain Jinge is knocked up from that picture. I can't see anything.

There's no way anyone can see a bump in that picture. She's wearing a black dress and he's wearing a black suit. You can barely tell where his black material begins and hers ends. It's a black hole! 

[Four is Enough]

@amandaaries, for the record, I agree with you about the deliberate changing of names being cruel. However, I do believe that most of it was done by rushed clerks with "eclectic" spelling skills, rather than a deliberate decision to dehumanize a new population. I know it happened. I feel that sometimes, new immigrants permitted it OR changed their names to something more "american" themselves. That's what I'm saying.

as @Dugg@rTimesaid, it wasn't specifically meant... Look at old census records. sloppy handwriting, creative spelling, or abbreviated words. These all mislead.

 

Anyway, my original post didn't mean to say "It just happened", although it did happen. I meant to say people did it, not necessarily to wipe anything out, but because they didn't understand, couldn't be bothered, couldn't spell, didn't care, what have you. I'm not saying it's right or correct to have done so.

I'm also saying that some immigrants deliberately changed their names. That, too, happened.

I will further agree that Americans are basically inherently racist. I am an American, and I have had my eyes opened by some things that have gone on.. have learned things from my children.. have tried very hard to change my behaviors and thinking by being aware of it, and have tried to challenge others to do the same.

I still maintain my stance that America is an English speaking country, and that the business of America should be done in English. However, given the immense diversity of the population, there should also be provision for interpreters in all major areas of need in this country.

[Gobsmacked]

1 hour ago, Irishy said:

https://youtu.be/0rR9IaXH1M0

Jim Jeffries on guns. Part 1, I know I'm late, but..... The funniest thing you'll ever watch. 

Thankyou a million times Irishy for introducing me (us) to Jim Jeffries. He is just pure dead brilliant. I've just spent the last hour watching all the clips that followed on from your link! Where has that man been hiding!! 

. I'm off to google his next British tour. Hope it's soon, not light years away.