Lisa Metzger says its not the the extra children...

[Love]

that cause financial burden, its the person who spends unwisely.

grrrrr, :x i absolutely despise this type of thinking. Its so arrogant!!!!

And it sends the message out to women to keep on having kids, even if you can't afford to feed them. And if you even think of not surrendering your uterus to god due to the ability to financially care for them, then you automatically must be

a2ndgenerationofhomeschooling.com/2011/09/family-planning-surrendering-to-god.html

[SamuraiKatz]

I checked this site out....This lady has had NINE miscarriages. She's certifiable....

[NurseNell]

And it sends the message out to women to keep on having kids, even if you can't afford to feed them. And if you even think of not surrendering your uterus to god due to the ability to financially care for them, then you automatically must be

Not uterus, womb.

Even though I had an apparent “solutionâ€, I was told that there was still a high chance with my disorder of having preeclampsia (especially due to my chronic hypertension), fetal growth restriction, placental abruptions or even stillbirths. Heparin would help, but it was no “sure-thingâ€. I was told that I would always run a high risk of losing babies either through miscarriage or stillbirth but that the heparin would lower those risks. Despite the possible losses I (and Mark, of course) still choose to give God control of my womb!

They already had several children, both by birth and adopted. Why continue to risk your health with more pregnancies? But what do I know, I never was able to get pregnant. Guess I should have given control of my womb to God. :shock:

Nell

[emmiedahl]

To be overly TMI, these people piss me off. I have had five children and five miscarriages. The miscarriages all happened between the fourth and fifth children, and they almost destroyed me. I can't even explain how distraught I was or why they made me so crazy. My fifth was a miracle and my dh got a vasectomy so we could, as he put it, conclude my reproductive years on a happy note.

Can you imagine what a fucked-up mess I would be if I were trying to have baby after baby now, instead having miscarriage after miscarriage? Sheesh. It's ridiculous to ask that of a person. I know so many women in the same situation, just relieved to have the kids we have and not really willing to risk all to get a few more.

[NurseNell]

Can you imagine what a fucked-up mess I would be if I were trying to have baby after baby now, instead having miscarriage after miscarriage? Sheesh. It's ridiculous to ask that of a person. I know so many women in the same situation, just relieved to have the kids we have and not really willing to risk all to get a few more.

I totally agree. 5 miscarriages, that had to be so difficult. I think never being able to get pregnant was easier than having miscarriages, and that wasn't easy so I can just imagine.

I wonder if I was a kid in that kind of situation if I'd ask myself why aren't we enough, why the continual hope for more babies? Enjoy the kids you have.

I saw some entries she wrote about the witnessing they do at an abortion clinic. I will say that they are there for woman who change their mind, providing food, 2 years of baby supplies and furniture, etc. But they have their young children holding up huge posters with really awful photos of aborted babies. I just think those kind of shock photos don't help the cause.

Nell

[doggie]

well the way fundies raise their children she is right. no medical no school no real clothes crap food.

[Effie]

well the way fundies raise their children she is right. no medical no school no real clothes crap food.

God will provide! No worries there! Keep on breeding like rabbits.

[Rosa]

I can't even explain how distraught I was or why they made me so crazy...

Can you imagine what a fucked-up mess I would be if I were trying to have baby after baby now, instead having miscarriage after miscarriage?

This. Seriously, I'm sure women in the past who went through the constant fear/hope of pregnancy or miscarriage got used to it and weren't constantly deranged, just like people got used to moving to a new continent and never seeing their family again, or losing 10% of the population to a horrible epidemic every 20 or 30 years. But people who do it now, on purpose, with no end in sight but menopause? More and more I think this "theology" is either a result of mental illness or causes it in most of the people who practice it (and the others just aren't that fertile and don't get pregnant much.)

[snarkykitty]

Can someone explain "dying to flesh" and what it means in modern-day life?

[emeraldskull]

This is so dumb. My older sister has only one child. During her pregnancy she got pre-eclampsia, had high blood pressure, and now has constant back problems. Should she risk her health for the sake of another child that does not exist yet? No, she's perfectly happy with one child, and she well should be. Not everyone is built for having 10 kids. Some women can (like my mother... she's 50 and still hasn't hit menopause o.O), and remain as healthy as ever. Other women could die from having or attempting to have too many kids. Some people are just stupid. They say "feminism" puts women in boxes, when really, THEY are the ones putting women in boxes!

[lilwriter85]

I have seen fundies make this argument before. I have read blogs in which the bloggers have said that people with fancy items or brand name clothing are the ones causing financial burden and that people with more kids budget money wisely. I wouldn't be surprised if this blogger we are discussing accept donations of items from people but she keeps that to herself.

Fundies do sometimes lack resources that can lead to problems if there is disruption in finances. I'm not sure this blogger has ever worked before or has an education, but if her husband died or was unable to work, I could see hardships for her and kids, but again she would find ways to get help from people.

[emeraldskull]

Can someone explain "dying to flesh" and what it means in modern-day life?

Here is how I believe and understand it:

There are two parts of a Christian "Flesh" (worldly desires) and "Spirit" (heavenly desires). The flesh naturally wants things that, as a Christian, I believe are wrong. So, I must "die to the flesh", and deny myself what is wrong. Such as: not being prideful, not lying, not having premarital sex etc.

HOWEVER. Kelly has twisted it beyond its real meaning, even in light of the Bible (which I do believe and follow). Nowhere in the Bible does God give a commandment to "have as many children as is physically feasible" or "do not limit your family size else fear the wrath of God!". He does command parents to provide for their families.

In fact, the entire "quiverfull" idea is based off of one verse in Proverbs, which was NOT meant as any sort of command. So the phrase "dying to flesh", can't be applied biblically to how many children one has, at all.

[Austin]

Can someone explain "dying to flesh" and what it means in modern-day life?

In my experience, that phrase means thrusting aside your wants and desires, laying them down and invalidating them ("dying to"), as they are of your carnal self, "your flesh". Mankind is carnal because of original sin so the goal is to become as un-carnal as possible by denying yourself the things that your flesh wants. Often these are things like respect, compassion, and love. You deserve nothing and anything you get at all from anyone is sheerly by God's grace.

That's the theology of it based on my understanding from my fundie-lite upbringing, anyway.

[maybeizfundie]

On a purely technical note, the blog linked is Lisa Metzger's, not Generation Ceder.

Obviously not going to change the general opinion of what was written. But maybe worthwhile to keep the names straight. :)

[GenerationCedarchip]

On a purely technical note, the blog linked is Lisa Metzger's, not Generation Ceder.

Obviously not going to change the general opinion of what was written. But maybe worthwhile to keep the names straight. :)

True - Kelly is her own brand of crazy and even manages to inspire FJ handles, but this isn't her speaking.

Even so, this thinking is very similar to Kelly's and it just makes me crazy. I've known fundies who lost one or the other of the spouses. IN general, these were families living on a shoestring budget before, so upsetting the boat sent things completely out of control. I don't know if these people don't realize that they're totally living on the edge of poverty or what the disconnect is. I'll agree that I see a lot of waste in many people's lives, but even if I only consume what I need, that's not going to pay for 10 children.

[jenny_islander]

As a mainstream Christian (confirmed Lutheran, currently attending an Anglican church), I was taught that "the flesh" is shorthand for "our impulses, unexamined habits, and desires that we allow to trump other people's needs." The things that we don't think about, IOW. "Dying to the flesh" means stopping and thinking, "Wait a second--why am I doing this? Is the short-term pleasure worth the long-term consequences? What or who am I neglecting or actively harming in order to fulfill this desire? Am I violating the Two Greatest Commandments?"

[AnnoDomini]

God will provide! No worries there! Keep on breeding like rabbits.

That's what my family said. 10 children now, none moved out and not a one with a college fund. Not a one. I don't think they thought about our futures in any practical, planning type way. Possibly because they never thought we'd have futures, that the world would end before we got old enough.

[starfish]

Kim from LiaS has a "classic" or "best of " where she astututely addresses the silly problem of ectopic pregnancies and why they should not be terminated. One of her loyal followers tells a tale about how she refused to artificially abort her ectopic pregnancy, determined to let nature take it's course. She stated something to the effect of, "and everything turned out fine! Of course, I nearly bled to death on my bathroom floor before my husband could rush me to the hospital, and have lingering health problems to this day, but by God, I did not have an abortion!! Now where's my prize for blindly following Doug Phillips???"

(I totally made up that last part about Dougie).

I know this is slightly ot to the op, but I get so frustrated at the cavalier way these people treat woman's health. I mean, there's a reason why doctors want to terminate an ectopic pregnancy, and it has nothing to do with undermining Doug Phillips' morality.

[hapamama]

I can see both sides of the argument here.

Kids don't necessarily NEED things like name brand clothes, expensive shoes, braces, ballet lessons, organized sports, martial arts classes, to go to prom, letterman jackets, yearbooks, video game systems, cable television, etc. Those are all luxuries, even here in the US.

However, for a child to go without adequate medical care, a weather-tight home, nourshing food, clothing that fits and is season appropriate, a decent education and properly fitting shoes here in the US? That is a travesty.

[Love]

On a purely technical note, the blog linked is Lisa Metzger's, not Generation Ceder.

Obviously not going to change the general opinion of what was written. But maybe worthwhile to keep the names straight. :)

ACK! oopsie! I fixed the title. Purely for technicality's sake.

I think the link has the word generation in it, and the awful, curly font that Lisa uses always gets me mixed up.

Yea, i'm gonna blame the font for this one. :?

[Love]

and, ummm... wow. this thread has over 1000 views. Is that odd? Or am i just missing something?

[Effie]

and, ummm... wow. this thread has over 1000 views. Is that odd? Or am i just missing something?

I think that whenever someone writes "generation cedar" people start clicking frequently. We don't want to miss that kind of crazy (or maybe I'm just speaking for myself hehe).

[Love]

Yea, you are probably right. She got pretty popular after the tornado.

[GeoBQn]

So frustrating. Even being pregnant with all those blessings can be a financial burden. When my friend's cousin got pregnant for the first time, it ended in an extremely premature birth at 5 months, after which the baby only lived several hours. Her second pregnancy ended happily with the birth of her healthy son, but getting to that point required multiple doctors visits per week and weekly progesterone shots. When she got pregnant a third time, she thought that she was in the clear since she had successfully carried a pregnancy to term, but her doctor informed her that she was always going to be high risk--always needing the progesterone shots and intensive doctors visits. When she ended up miscarrying at 10 weeks, she wrote on her blog that she realized it was all for the best. The cost and effort to maintain another high-risk pregnancy was something her family just couldn't deal with right now. Not only would it have meant time off of work and paying for things insurance couldn't cover, but it would have meant devoting less attention to her toddler son who needed her. They decided to wait to get pregnant again until he was in school.

[Terrie]

Looking at the story of the adoption of their oldest child, it looks like "God will provide" means "Someone will give us the money we need." So another family who relies on handouts, which are okay, in their eyes, as long as they come directly from other people and the government is not the middle man.