All Things Anna Duggar

[debrand]

Because I thought some of the discussion about her was interesting until the subject veered off, I thought it would be nice to start a new thread.

 

Just some questions to get the conversation started.

 

How difficult would it be for her to leave Josh?

 

Would her education enable her to work and earn a living?

 

Do you think that the marriage will last?

 

Would her parents provide her with emotional support if she left her husband or would they disown her?

[debrand]

Oh and I should add-although it should be obvious- you can snark all you want on this thread. No handslappers allowed.

[Piper]

I get the feeling that Josh is bored with Anna, and she knows it.

[MamaJunebug]

Even though I'm not a Duggar watcher by any means, I'm giving my opinion on the following questions because I think they excellent, as they apply pretty evenly across the board to anybody in a patriarse-al family setting.

Just some questions to get the conversation started.

How difficult would it be for her to leave Josh?

Speaking of Anna Duggar, danged difficult. She'd besmirch the TLC medium-warm (no longer hot) property that is 19K&C. The network would not - JMHO - be able to switch to a serious mode like they did with the Josie trauma. So not only would her parents, his parents, and himself be pounding on her mentally/emotionally, the network suits would, too.

Would her education enable her to work and earn a living?

Not being a fan, I don't know what her education is. For most of the families we follow, the answer is yes and no: No, if by "earn a living" you mean buy a house, etc. Yes, if you mean "find employment as a nanny or day-care worker or factory worker [good luck with that last one in North America]." TTBOMK she (and most of her peers) have only basic skills in any craft that's desirable in the 2011 economy.

Do you think that the marriage will last?

In Anna's case, at least until the cameras go away. In the case of other taken-for-granted women, it's a case-by-case prognostication.

Would her parents provide her with emotional support if she left her husband or would they disown her?

How did they react to the child who with his/her spouse left the ATI life? I really don't remember; I just remember reading that it had happened. There's probably a middle ground. They would not disown her, but she would be, as it were, under some kind of disciplinary status. Possibly: "You are still our daughter, but you are not welcome except by our express invitation, as we do not want you corrupting your younger siblings."

Will it be next season, when the shows featuring her trudging off a schoolbus at 8.5 months pregnant, and lugging an infant around a Scottish countryside are shown? I may start watching, then. Or if they're on, now, I may look for repeats.

Finally! Something about 19K&C that would be interesting to observe!!!!

[3 is enough]

IIRC, Anna has a degree in Christian Education from a non-accredited online Christian diploma mill. I sincerely doubt she would be able to find any job other than as a nanny, or in a daycare center.

I think she may be feeling a bit frazzled and disillusioned these days, but I doubt she would ever leave Josh. In their world, where marriage is the ultimate goal, there seems to be an abundance of young women stuck in their parents' homes, waiting for Prince Charming. While Anna's Prince Charming is a bit of a frog, she only has to look at her sisters-in-law, stuck raising all of their siblings for the foreseeable future, to feel "blessed" to have her own babies, home, and husband.

I also think that the small glimpses of independent thinking we have seen ( the tv, pants on Mack, etc) bode well for the future. At some point, when the cameras stop rolling, I can definitely see them quietly deciding to stop pumping out the babies. Anna comes from a much smaller family, and quite honestly, I don't think Josh really enjoyed growing up with so many siblings. I think they follow the party line just for the cameras, and once they stop rolling, they may quietly shut down the baby factory.

I don't know how Anna's parents would react if the marriage ended, but I'm sure her non-ATI siblings would be supportive.

[tabitha2]

That's not being independant...It's just choosing VF forum over ATI.And if they choose to go exclusively with VF in future that won't affect the family size because both groups endorse letting God plan the family and no BC.

[Witsec1]

Wait, what? Pants and TV are Vision Forum influence? I didn't think VF condoned those things.

[tabitha2]

Yup.They don't particularly care as long as you follow the core precepts-LIAS is the Queen of VF and they do ware pants and watch TV,as well as watch movies in gasp! theater,have pierced ears,cut hair,ETC.What I am trying to say is,if Anna does those things it is not all that rebellious or special.They still believe in gender roles,patriarchy,dominionism and the whole Fundie way.

[buttercup]

I can also see Anna/Josh getting slightly more mainstream - by which I mean some TV, some wearing of pants when playing outside/working outside (in the yard, not OUTSIDE OF THE HOME), maybe not having 20 kids. I think it would be very, very difficult for her to leave her current environment especially while the show is on. She'd face enormous pressure from both her family and the Duggars (I'm fifty-fifty as to whether TLC would care. It might be a Very Dramatic Episode so I could see where they might be OK with it). I'd also guess that, if she insisted on going through with it, there would be a lot of nasty court arguments and things said about her character and her ability to mother her children - and the Duggars would probably have way more money to hire lawyers and make Anna look bad. So, I think it'd be very difficult for her to leave, and, if she tried, I think the Duggar family wouldn't hesitate to do everything they could to prevent her from having custody.

If she rejects the Duggar family by leaving Josh, I think she's also marginally employable at best. Her degree is only probably going to be looked upon as credible in fundie circles, none of whom will want to be associated with a divorced woman, much less one who divorced fundie royalty. As far as secular employment, she'd be a woman in her early 20s with no experience and dubious educational credentials, looking to make it in a job market that's rough at best. I don't see that going so well. Maybe she could support herself by working in a daycare or nursery school or maybe she could go back to school.. but it'd be a very uphill battle.

For those reasons, I can't really see her marriage dissolving, ever. I think it will last unless Josh does something absolutely unforgivable because I think the consequences of it not lasting are too severe for Anna to realistically contemplate. She would have to be much braver and stronger than she seems to stand up against her family, her in laws, her church & most of her social circle and risk a nasty, nasty court battle where she may possibly lose primary custody of her children. It'd be tougher for her to get out than a lot of other fundie wives because she's so in the spotlight. It'd be worse than if Anna Sophia Botkin decided to give up submission and intern for Planned Parenthood, because the mainstream media cares about the Duggars, and any action on their part will reflect poorly on the movement as a whole to the general population. I can see tabloids eating up a story like Anna leaving Josh, even if the show's been off the air for a while.

[bananacat]

I predict that they will end up divorced eventually, but they'll both tough it out for a long time, maybe 10 or 20 years. I wouldn't be surprised if selfish Josh cheated eventually. After the TLC gravy train ends, they will struggle financially because Josh is lazy and incompetent and Anna won't be allowed to work. She might find some way to earn money anyway and hopefully that will help her when the divorce eventually comes. They'll struggle because of money but also because of Josh's selfishness. After numerous fundie marriage books and seminars, Anna will realize that no amount of submission will turn Josh into a good provider.

Her parents will disown her the way have done to two of their other children. Anna will probably end up working at a minimum-wage job. Her siblings who escaped might help her, and I hope she'll have a change of heart and accept government assistance for her children. I think she is under-educated but of average or higher intelligence, and she might go to a real school and get a real degree, or maybe learn a trade.

[3 is enough]

After the TLC gravy train ends, they will struggle financially because Josh is lazy and incompetent and Anna won't be allowed to work.

Oh, yes. I can absolutely see this happening. And this is why I think they will have a smaller family. Because Josh seems to enjoy his little luxuries, and I can't see him giving up his fast food habit in order to provide for babies 3, 4, 5, 6, and so on.

And unless he starts stocking a better inventory, there is not much chance of his business ever really taking off. The vast majority of the cars on his lot have over 100,000 miles on them. If you really want/need/can only afford an old clunker, you can buy it directly from the previous owner, at a much lower price. Honestly, I'm surprised he makes any money at all.

[tabitha2]

I think they won't be wealthy but they won't life in poverty either.Josh was raised by Jim Bob after all,Who probably taught him about saving,investing and living frugally from a very young age.

[Visionoyahweh]

I wouldn't be surprised if selfish Josh cheated eventually

I agree, and it'll be all Anna and the defrauding temptress' fault. Joshie has needs! I could see him become more slick/sociopathic like his daddy after the cameras go away.

[CanticleoftheTurning]

I agree, and it'll be all Anna and the defrauding temptress' fault. Joshie has needs! I cold see him become more slick/sociopathic like his daddy after the cameras go away.

Whoa, you think JimBoob is sociopathic? I haven't been keeping up with their show (no TV--I swears, I'm not fundie--just prefer books). I've always wondered if he was manipulative/sociopathic/etc...could you fill me in?

Just out of curiosity...

[Visionoyahweh]

Whoa, you think JimBoob is sociopathic? I haven't been keeping up with their show (no TV--I swears, I'm not fundie--just prefer books). I've always wondered if he was manipulative/sociopathic/etc...could you fill me in?

Bad choice of words. I think JB is more of an extreme narcissist, who's pretty darn good at manipulation. He does have that creepy stare and love of power/attention. I think that's what drew him into gothardism, not the belief that it's the one true faith.

I didn't mean sociopathic as in an ax crazy way. Josh is probably closer to the sociopathic side, since the only person we've ever seen that matters to Josh, is Josh. Anna is just a handy extension/servant of him, and the kids are fertility accessories. I have some sympathy for Josh, as it's not totally his fault. JB&M don't realize that the way they raised him turned him into a total asshole manchild. The only kinds of personalities they seem to produce are assholes (boys) or meek, beaten down servants (Girls). What a crappy life.

[annalena]

I actually think a job at a daycare would be a good perspective for someone with basically no higher education. And I think she'd be pretty qualified by basically nannying her siblings (right?), Duggar kids, and her own kids.

Other than that... no.

If she wanted to, she could get a degree in like, elementary education? BUT that's not going to happen. She'll be told to pray about submitting and accepting the life God has chosen for her, and to rejoice in her role as a wife and homemaker. By whoever she confides in (mother? sister? sister-in-law??!!?)

I also think anyone would be on the edge after travelling with their in-laws and their brood for a longer while.

[gustava]

I think Anna will end up being the backbone in the used car business, so they'll stay afloat financially. Didn't she get things organized there after they married?

[ThisOlGirl]

I agree with others that say Anna is reasonably intelligent, and I think that between her & Smuggar, she's the brains of the operation. So if she wanted and was able to go to a real college and get a real degree, I think she'd do well.

As for her leaving, do you guys really think that she'd have to fight that hard to keep custody of her kids? It seems to me that most of the time, the mother is the one with primary custody, unless both parents agree to other arrangements, or the court decides that the mother isn't fit. What could they possibly say to make Anna look like a bad parent (although I wouldn't put it past any of them to lie in order to get what they want)?

[debrand]

Am I remembering this correctly? Didn't the Duggar sisters invade Anna's privacy about her first pregnancy. I remember her saying that they began very early in her marriage to ask if she was pregnant.

[buttercup]

As for her leaving, do you guys really think that she'd have to fight that hard to keep custody of her kids? It seems to me that most of the time, the mother is the one with primary custody, unless both parents agree to other arrangements, or the court decides that the mother isn't fit. What could they possibly say to make Anna look like a bad parent (although I wouldn't put it past any of them to lie in order to get what they want)?

I honestly think the Duggars would use their greater resources to make it difficult for her - I think they could say that she'd have no way to support the children, and that they'd be better off with the father who is stable and comes from the poster children for raising big families. I'm not saying it's a sure thing, just I get the feeling that they'd try pretty hard. Unless Anna had some more sophisticated thinkers with deep pockets in her corner, I think they could make things VERY difficult. Especially if the Kellers don't have Anna's back (which I feel like they may if Josh was abusive or unfaithful, but probably would not if Anna just up and left).

[Daenerys]

I think if she does leave, it will probably be when Kynzie is of an age to start courting, or at least seriously thinking about marriage abstractly - so mid teens onwards. If Anna has had a totally miserable time with Josh she will not want to put her child through the same thing. I think in quite a lot of cases the prospect of putting their own child through the same thing is what has caused doubting fundie women to leave.

[Trynn]

I agree with others that say Anna is reasonably intelligent, and I think that between her & Smuggar, she's the brains of the operation. So if she wanted and was able to go to a real college and get a real degree, I think she'd do well.

As for her leaving, do you guys really think that she'd have to fight that hard to keep custody of her kids? It seems to me that most of the time, the mother is the one with primary custody, unless both parents agree to other arrangements, or the court decides that the mother isn't fit. What could they possibly say to make Anna look like a bad parent (although I wouldn't put it past any of them to lie in order to get what they want)?

The fact that Anna would have a hard time finding employment might be enough for them to decide to give Josh primary custody, especially if the Duggars have good lawyers, which they could afford, and Anna likely could not.

I do not think Anna would leave, though, unless Josh got downright abusive, which so far we don't know. I say this because I think even if she left the fundy lifestyle she might still be a Christian and adhere to the commandments regarding marriage.

[bananacat]

I think if she does leave, it will probably be when Kynzie is of an age to start courting, or at least seriously thinking about marriage abstractly - so mid teens onwards. If Anna has had a totally miserable time with Josh she will not want to put her child through the same thing. I think in quite a lot of cases the prospect of putting their own child through the same thing is what has caused doubting fundie women to leave.

Yes, I completely agree with this. I think that Anna will have serious doubts in just a few years (and is maybe already having them), but will need something major like this to actually push her over the edge.

[Markie]

How difficult would it be for her to leave Josh?

I think it was be very difficult for her to leave Josh. She may be tired and emotionally drained right now, but I don't see her leaving her husband and the life she has chosen. She has chosen this life and Josh.

Would her education enable her to work and earn a living?

She has some pseudo early childhood education/Christian degree. It is unaccredited and she earned it before she was 20. She could get work in a daycare, as a nanny, cleaner, retail, restaurant... Her degreee would not be accepted by any school boards to teach in public schools, however, she might be able to pick up some part-time work or supply work in smaller very Christian schools.

Do you think that the marriage will last?

Yes, I think their marriage will last. She is most likely in for the long haul and I don't see her leaving while any of the kids are young, if at all. Anna may be unhappy with Josh (she might not be -she could love him) but she seems to be a very traditional woman and will do everything she can to keep the marriage from falling apart. Josh is also traditional. They could eventually live together, but separately and stay together for the kids.

Would her parents provide her with emotional support if she left her husband or would they disown her?

It depends. I think, and hope, they would provide emotional support if Josh continually beat Anna, became an alcoholic and injured the children, murdered someone... I don't think they'd be there for Anna if she left Josh because he was so damn smug, inconsiderate and stupid. "you made your bed, so lie in it" would be their mantra, IMO

[Lillian]

I always got the impression that Josh and Anna suited each other, they both have a slightly arrogant, 'i'm-always-right' attitude (evidence: on Suzanna's facebook, she complained that 'Anna was telling everybody what to do, as usual!', evidence for Josh is obvious as soon as he opens his mouth). I think Anna might have trouble submitting to Josh wholly, but I don't know, I don't get the feeling that they totally loathe each other and cannot stand each others company. So, I don't think they will get divorced, at least anytime soon.

I don't think Anna wants to work. She seems fine staying at home, and with the workload she has looking after Kynzie, Michael, and man-baby Josh (as well as the rest of the Duggars, and not to mention the kids that she and Josh will no doubt keep having), I think employment is the last thing on her mind. Of course, Josh may want extra money when the TLC show stops, but if he asked Anna to work that would emasculate him (in their fundie version of the world), so I think he would sooner mooch of JimBob (even more than he already does), then ask Anna to work.