Counting On (everyone being civil in...) - part 2

[FundieFarmer]

The strict courtship rules followed by the Duggars and Batesssssessss never existed in the Western world. They seem to be a idealized version of aristocratic Georgian or Victorian customs, although neither of those were so strict as to restrict private conversations between people who were courting. I also read that these aristocratic courtships involved a certain amount of flexibility, particularly when families were enjoying house parties (which lasted for weeks) at various country houses. The main goal of families seemed to avoid having young women placed in overtly compromising situations, so there were generally chaperones or other people within sight or in adjacent rooms with doors open between...

This sort of rigidity didn't exist in the middle or lower classes. They had to work and function in the real world, and didn't have time or resources to adhere to such formality.

Ironically, with the exception of the Puritans, early American courtship practices were quite liberal, even compared to middle or lower class Europe. This probably had a lot to do with the more egalitarian society, larger distances between farms or settlements and the lesser importance of the church in many communities.

A good example is the use of bundling boards. These boards would have been placed down the middle of a bed, and secured to the headboard and footboard, thus creating the effect of two beds. Courting couples, or anyone else, for that matter, could then spend the night in the same bed in complete respectability. This was regarded as a good way for couples who may be functioning in crowded conditions to get to know each other somewhat privately.

There were a variety of loud opinions as to how high bundling boards should be, however motivated people could simply loosen the cords holding the mattress, and create a dip under the bundling board, which would allow for some touching or cuddling. I suspect that sleep was not priority one for most of these couples.

As America became more socially stratified in the 1800s and Christianity became dominant, courting became somewhat more rule intensive, particularly for the wealthy. Most people, however did not have the time or resources to worry too much about formality and idealized virtue, so for the most part, it was pretty informal and looked a lot like dating appeared to be in the 1950s...

I love you. You're my new BFF. I'm a history junkie and while I knew these things, reading it got me like [emoji7][emoji7][emoji7][emoji7]!

[Kittikatz]

3 hours ago, FundieFarmer said:

I love you. You're my new BFF. I'm a history junkie and while I knew these things, reading it got me like !

Thank-you, new Bestie!

I'm a tiny bit of a history geek, and when history meets sex and sexuality, I'm a happy Kittikatz

[OyToTheVey]

On 3/24/2016 at 4:57 PM, NeverAFundie said:

I am a pretty avid watcher of My 600 LB Life, too.  I watch it, though, because I feel like it gives me special insight to what my own mother went through.  She died 4 years ago at age 63 of a MRSA infection, complicated by countless obesity-related illnesses.  She was 5' 4", and at the time of her death weighed about 500 pounds.  It's a sad, double-edged sword when a reality show can give someone like me some peace and perspective about something a loved one faced, but is admittedly also a source of voyeurism for people who I'm sure make fun of people on those shows.

I love that show. I watch it cuz it's a feel good. I root so hard for them. Well honestly it depends. Completely individual. There were a few I wanted to punch in the neck tbh. It's also inspiration because if they can go thru all that in a year, I can drop a few pounds too.

[goldfishgoddess]

 So I (tried to) watch the show last night and after all the 19 Kids shows, this is apparent:

1.  The appeal of the show was the crazy circus of 19 kids and two wacko religious parents.  Take that away and you have a few rather vapid shows with a new dad, OMG, changing a diaper.

2.  Without Michelle and Boob, you've got Jana and John David as surrogate heads of the family.  Jana and John David  have subdued personalities and can't carry the show.  At least seeing Michelle and Boob, you could feel some emotion.. like disgust.

3.  I see a big push to promote Jinger and Joy as the new stars.  Although they are only mildly entertaining, it's apparent all Jinger has going for her is learning to be a used car salesman (with her brother doing all the manly negotiating and Jinger having to accept what he gets).  Joy getting her car detailing certificate was extremely underwhelming.  Poor thing, is that as big as her dream is at 18?  And is it possible Jinger is wearing even more makeup....and is that even possible?

4. The JOSHLEY in the room.... Anna's segments seemed really awkward as she's discussing bring up her kids and everyone knowing her spouse is a rat in rehab.  She looks great and that has to be sweet revenge.

5.  The Jill-Derick-Choochoo segment also seemed awkward, with Derick looking like he'd just stepped off the set of "Robinson Crusoe" and Jill bouncing around her big white baby. 

Sorry but basically this show is a turd and there's no amount of treehouse big enough to make it a success.

 

[SassyPants]

Of course 2, young, unemployed couples, each with 1 kid, plus a bunch of grown, unemployed, unedcuated kidults does not make for entertaining or informative TV. 

DUH!

How the eff this ever happened is beyond any sense of logic or reasoning.

Without the entire tribe, matching outfits, Jesus juice, screeching violins...this is just the losers living around the block.

[SassyPants]

While channel surfing last night, I saw a clip of Jana talking about her ideal mate. I notice she mentioned that the person needed to be mature and come with life experiences...a dig at Bin, perhaps? It seems she wants more out of a man. Good for her.

[AnnaRuk09]

20 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

While channel surfing last night, I saw a clip of Jana talking about her ideal mate. I notice she mentioned that the person needed to be mature and come with life experiences...a dig at Bin, perhaps? It seems she wants more out of a man. Good for her.

Was it part of the show or just a sneak peak?

[SassyPants]

36 minutes ago, AnnaRuk09 said:

Was it part of the show or just a sneak peak?

Not sure- was the show on last night?

IDK, every time I peruse the channels, the same clips are being shown- the episode where Jana is "installing can lights,"(wink, wink). How many times have they shown THAT episode?

[choralcrusader8613]

Yeah, they did a repeat of last week (the can lights episode), and then the new one at 9 EST.

[Jucifer]

On March 29, 2016 at 7:22 AM, foreign fundie said:

My grandparents, super conservative religious in the thirties (fundies didn't exist back then), managed to get pregnant before they married (and then of course promptly married). This tells me that even back then in extremely controlled circles, young people were allowed alone time and enough privacy to do things that could result in babies (although that last thing was not approved of and had consequences). 

I cannot think of any example in Europe or America in real life or in literature,  in any century where a couple was not allowed to converse in private for fear of them loosing their 'purity'. It is a notion you see in Islam rather then in Christianity. In conservative Islam women are pictured as temptresses and men as lacking self control. Thus they have to be kept apart to prevent immoral behavior and women have to cover up. 

In the Bible it is clear that sex is meant for a married couple. But there are no rules at all about keeping men and women seperate or not allowing them to have private conversations. Not even in the Old Testament. 

Men and women are expected to behave responsible and are taken as capable of doing so. There is no blaming the conditions for 'accidental' immorality. 

The Duggars' courtship rules are not about being old-fashioned, conservative or wanting to follow the Bible. They are about misguided control of youngsters who should, and can, control themselves if they want. And if they don't want to control themselves, courtship rules only postpone immorality until after marriage.

The different religions throughout history seemed to cherry-pick their dating/courtship rules according to what sounded ok to their leaders at the time. 

The puritans and others in earlier times had 'courting' customs that would set the gothardites' hair on fire, that is if they actually bothered to study history.

Google 'puritans bundling' if you really want to.

[CreationMuseumSeasonPass]

2 hours ago, Jucifer said:

Google 'puritans bundling' if you really want to.

I just did. Fascinating.

[what the heck]

On March 12, 2016 at 5:10 PM, LawsonBatesEgo said:

Yikes.

I don't have children and even I know buying a used carseat is a huge no no. 

You'd think someone who has popped out 19 kids would know that. 

I can't believe it's not against the law to sell used car seats? It's against the law to purchase used crib mattress. I worked in a second hand children's store and we said that at least one a day. Mainly when parents came in looking for them! To me that's just gross trying to buy your infant a used mattress!

[quiverofdoubt]

22 minutes ago, what the heck said:

I can't believe it's not against the law to sell used car seats? It's against the law to purchase used crib mattress. I worked in a second hand children's store and we said that at least one a day. Mainly when parents came in looking for them! To me that's just gross trying to buy your infant a used mattress!

It is if the seat is expired. Probably is if it's been recalled - same goes for any recalled toy item. Though i'm not sure about that last part.

I love used- but there are some places i just won't go. Used mattresses is on that list. Same with undies. Not unusual to see used tidy whitey's hanging in good will, and I can't help but feel you've hit rock bottom when you're buying used underwear.... especially since they probably are not much cheaper than new undies at walmart.

[Maggie Mae]

Speaking of bundling... 

 

14 minutes ago, quiverofdoubt said:

I can't help but feel you've hit rock bottom when you're buying used underwear

The Goodwill that i've always gone to doesn't take used undies. They do accept donations from stores though, and they sell new undies at a very low cost. 

[quiverofdoubt]

1 minute ago, Maggie Mae said:

Speaking of bundling... 

 

The Goodwill that i've always gone to doesn't take used undies. They do accept donations from stores though, and they sell new undies at a very low cost. 

I was surprised to see them. I'm not sure if it's allowed, or if they just ignore the rules. But they were used, very obviously. Even hanging on a pants hanger, with the clips, all lined up. men's to be specific. not super fresh white, saggy waist bands, no tags or packaging. I didn't examine further, but I have seen this several times at good wills near us. The people working there may just have not been aware of the rule.

The duggars claim they always buy used (including shoes for kids, which i recently found out is a no no- broken in to another kid's gait).  I wonder what levels of used they have sunk to, before the tlc pay day came in.

[FundieFarmer]

What is the recent obsession with Duggar undergarments around here?

[quiverofdoubt]

12 minutes ago, FundieFarmer said:

What is the recent obsession with Duggar undergarments around here?

Oh dear, I didn't even  make that connection! I didn't mean to go there. I was just thinking of the gross used things i've seen at thrift stores.  

I also don't believe the older duggars shop at thrift stores anymore, not since they have money. Maybe for the cameras, but even then it's usually higher end resale type shops.

[FundieFarmer]

Oh dear, I didn't even  make that connection! I didn't mean to go there. I was just thinking of the gross used things i've seen at thrift stores.  

I also don't believe the older duggars shop at thrift stores anymore, not since they have money. Maybe for the cameras, but even then it's usually higher end resale type shops.

Gotcha! I read it and was like ohhhh no, we just had a whole conversation somewhere about boobs and bras, please can this not go into undies too [emoji23] sorry! My bad for ASSuming!

Thrift stores- even goodwills- vary so much, it's crazy. The Junior League here runs a really nice one (antiques, oil paintings, pottery & silver) and the goodwill two seconds up the street is a disaster like what you described- smelly and all. It's a really interesting dichotomy. I live in an urban area now so there's a lot to chose from and you can be picky, it's almost a sport or a game in some ways. When I lived in rural TN, you had one megastore option and it wasn't that great. From one episode I remember, it seemed like their option was somewhere in the middle of those.

But I'd agree the thrift shopping days are probably over for them...at least while they're still on the gravy train.

[eclairaupistache]

It is so frustrating to see Jana talking about being in an "in-between-state". Girl!!!! You are a full blown 26 year old adult. She said she envies her siblings who are married and can go on dates. It drives me up the wall to think that she is not allowed to go on a date unchaperoned at 26! Does she think it is punishable by law or something?

 

I just wanted to add:

This system is not stable. I predict that the second one of the siblings starts dating in a more conventional way lots of other siblings will follow. the system is only held in place because JB and Michelle guilt trip every single one of them. Once the first one realizes that it all breaks down like house of cards.

[OrchidBlossom]

On 3/29/2016 at 7:22 AM, foreign fundie said:

My grandparents, super conservative religious in the thirties (fundies didn't exist back then), managed to get pregnant before they married (and then of course promptly married). This tells me that even back then in extremely controlled circles, young people were allowed alone time and enough privacy to do things that could result in babies (although that last thing was not approved of and had consequences). 

I cannot think of any example in Europe or America in real life or in literature,  in any century where a couple was not allowed to converse in private for fear of them loosing their 'purity'. It is a notion you see in Islam rather then in Christianity. In conservative Islam women are pictured as temptresses and men as lacking self control. Thus they have to be kept apart to prevent immoral behavior and women have to cover up. 

In the Bible it is clear that sex is meant for a married couple. But there are no rules at all about keeping men and women seperate or not allowing them to have private conversations. Not even in the Old Testament. 

Men and women are expected to behave responsible and are taken as capable of doing so. There is no blaming the conditions for 'accidental' immorality. 

The Duggars' courtship rules are not about being old-fashioned, conservative or wanting to follow the Bible. They are about misguided control of youngsters who should, and can, control themselves if they want. And if they don't want to control themselves, courtship rules only postpone immorality until after marriage.

I don't think this is true. Orthodox Jewish people have yichud and negiah, the law forbidding seclusion and the law forbidding touch. And fundies aren't really a new thing, they're just newly popular. But they've been around a long time and I am sure their weird views on touching have been too, even if they've just been quieter til lately. I would guess that there ARE examples of men and women being discouraged from spending time alone together before marriage (Puritans come to mind, as I believe that they had some cultural norms that discouraged physical touching before marriage) in Christianity. Calvinists are as old as dirt and they've been proponents of a similar "courtship" model of relationships since like, forever, where the couple doesn't really spend much time together except in public. I think that the rules which exist in Islam on these topics are being focused on because of our current political and social climate as it relates to Islam, but I definitely don't think it is a notion which is remotely distinct to Islam.
However, I do 100% agree with you that for the Duggars and for any legalist of any religion, this is an issue of control of young adults. It is one thing to make a choice to follow these rules for yourself, but when you brainwash and force it onto your kids from a young age and you never give them a *viable* option to choose or reject it, it isn't about your religion it is about controlling the people around you. 

ETA: re: Puritans, with the exception of bundling. Which is truly weird practice. But my larger point is that Christianity also has examples of people picking and choosing what touch or social interaction between genders is acceptable. 

[SassyPants]

37 minutes ago, eclairaupistache said:

It is so frustrating to see Jana talking about being in an "in-between-state". Girl!!!! You are a full blown 26 year old adult. She said she envies her siblings who are married and can go on dates. It drives me up the wall to think that she is not allowed to go on a date unchaperoned at 26! Does she think it is punishable by law or something?

 

I just wanted to add:

This system is not stable. I predict that the second one of the siblings starts dating in a more conventional way lots of other siblings will follow. the system is only held in place because JB and Michelle guilt trip every single one of them. Once the first one realizes that it all breaks down like house of cards.

Classic brainwashing

[NeverAFundie]

39 minutes ago, eclairaupistache said:

This system is not stable. I predict that the second one of the siblings starts dating in a more conventional way lots of other siblings will follow. the system is only held in place because JB and Michelle guilt trip every single one of them. Once the first one realizes that it all breaks down like house of cards.

Agree 100%.  I have often wondered if one of the reasons the Bates family has ever-so-slightly-less rigid courtship and engagement rules (frontal hugs, etc.) is because one or more of the kids basically said "I'm doing this" and so Gil and Kelly decided they would put on a face of "we give our children the freedom to choose, we just counsel them to keep Jesus in the center of all things."  You know, to keep the house of cards up for a little while longer, anyway...

[Timetostoplurking]

30 minutes ago, OrchidBlossom said:

I don't think this is true. Orthodox Jewish people have yichud and negiah, the law forbidding seclusion and the law forbidding touch. And fundies aren't really a new thing, they're just newly popular. But they've been around a long time and I am sure their weird views on touching have been too, even if they've just been quieter til lately. I would guess that there ARE examples of men and women being discouraged from spending time alone together before marriage (Puritans come to mind, as I believe that they had some cultural norms that discouraged physical touching before marriage) in Christianity. Calvinists are as old as dirt and they've been proponents of a similar "courtship" model of relationships since like, forever, where the couple doesn't really spend much time together except in public. I think that the rules which exist in Islam on these topics are being focused on because of our current political and social climate as it relates to Islam, but I definitely don't think it is a notion which is remotely distinct to Islam.
However, I do 100% agree with you that for the Duggars and for any legalist of any religion, this is an issue of control of young adults. It is one thing to make a choice to follow these rules for yourself, but when you brainwash and force it onto your kids from a young age and you never give them a *viable* option to choose or reject it, it isn't about your religion it is about controlling the people around you. 

ETA: re: Puritans, with the exception of bundling. Which is truly weird practice. But my larger point is that Christianity also has examples of people picking and choosing what touch or social interaction between genders is acceptable. 

Your right!  Those super ridged courtship rules have been around for a while.  However,  it's never really been mainstream in a modern community.   It only seems to work in isolation.  With the Duggar brand of fundie the parents have an added burden of wicked societal influences.  Modern American society has many many ways of dating/courtiing and the Duggar kids will be seeing it.  The "Duggar courtship rules" will be hard to enforce as those kids get older and start opening their eyes to the world around them.  Especially as the younger ones see big gapping holes in their older siblings' marriages.   Pandora's box has been opened and cannot be easily closed.  (At least I hope so!!!   Please wake up duggerlings!!)  

[OrchidBlossom]

2 minutes ago, Timetostoplurking said:

Your right!  Those super ridged courtship rules have been around for a while.  However,  it's never really been mainstream in a modern community.   It only seems to work in isolation.  With the Duggar brand of fundie the parents have an added burden of wicked societal influences.  Modern American society has many many ways of dating/courtiing and the Duggar kids will be seeing it.  The "Duggar courtship rules" will be hard to enforce as those kids get older and start opening their eyes to the world around them.  Especially as the younger ones see big gapping holes in their older siblings' marriages.   Pandora's box has been opened and cannot be easily closed.  (At least I hope so!!!   Please wake up duggerlings!!)  

I think the best argument against courtship for the howlers will be watching it fail for all the older ones. If that doesn't convince em, nothing will. 

[ClaraOswin]

Okay, I seriously do want to make an underwear post in relation to the Duggars.

There was an episode (cannot remember which) when they were in their storage unit or whatever and there was a big box labeled Mens Underwear. I was watching with my husband and we were trying to figure out if they were saving old underwear or if they had bought a bunch of new in bulk and just put them into storage. 

Where I come from....you throw old underwear away. It does not get donated. It does not become hand-me-downs.

So I hope it was just a box of brand new stuff.