The Right Kind of Christian

[iweartanktops]

I brought this up in FJ Shelter a couple of months ago, but I'd like to discuss it here, because I think it's an interesting conversation. 

What do fundies say to other fundies to indicate that they are real Christians? Do they have a concise way of stating this? Do they have to be standing with their family in a floor length skirt with eleventy children? 

For example, when the Maxwell* family is out "soul winning," how do they decide who is "saved" and who's not? 

*they might not be the best example but you get the point 

[OodOnTheLoo]

I remember in the first special they were interviewing Jill about all the questions the family gets asked and she listed, "Are you Pentecostal?" as one of them.  I got the impression they weren't but I wonder what that is code for?

i think they are all thinking they are not just the right, but best kind of kind of Christians.  Actually, all religions do this, right?  Clothes, headwear, lingo, haircuts....using purpose as a verb.

 

[adidas]

I think someone went toe to toe Steve Anderson with this? The other guy came out on top, of course. I'm relying on my memory but I think PP was out soul winning and the other guy introduced himself. PP was the challenger, asking the other guy questions to 'test' him.

 

I found the link - I'm on my iPad and tried to break the link, please let me know if I need to fix anything.

vocabmalone.blogspot.com.au/2011/12/my-run-in-with-pastor-steven-anderson.html

[PennySycamore]

My husband knew this guy back in the 70s at college whose home church in Mississippi thought it was the only True Church in the whole world.  Only members of that congregation were Christians, in their view.  That's Steve Maxwell crazy.

[Archer]

I was going to say a secret handshake, but it's probably more of a secret side hug.

Definitely has to be the combination of clothes, demeanor, and verbiage. And I guess for the quiverfull, you'll want to see a baker's dozen or so kids to know they're truly the right kind because God has blessed them with so many arrows.

[Gimme a Free RV]

My guess is that fundies feel those who need saving are all those people who aren't like them.

i.e., They just might feel I am not saved because I wear pants, am divorced (almost), have short hair, work outside the home, go to movies (rarely because $$), don't read the King James Bible,  don't have a headship,  etc...  In other words, all the outward, legalistic signs that I don't mess with. 

(I even say "crap" once in a while.)

(When I pray aloud with one or more people, I address God in...

...are you sitting down? 

...Contemporary English!  And what's more,  I think He understands me! 

[iweartanktops]

26 minutes ago, adidas said:

I think someone went toe to toe Steve Anderson with this? The other guy came out on top, of course. I'm relying on my memory but I think PP was out soul winning and the other guy introduced himself. PP was the challenger, asking the other guy questions to 'test' him.

 

I found the link - I'm on my iPad and tried to break the link, please let me know if I need to fix anything.

vocabmalone.blogspot.com.au/2011/12/my-run-in-with-pastor-steven-anderson.html

I started reading this but I don't have the attention span right now. I'm looking forward to it though! Thanks for sharing! 

2 minutes ago, Gimme a Free RV said:

My guess is that fundies feel those who need saving are all those people who aren't like them.

i.e., They just might feel I am not saved because I wear pants, am divorced (almost), have short hair, work outside the home, go to movies (rarely because $$), don't read the King James Bible,  don't have a headship,  etc...  In other words, all the outward, legalistic signs that I don't mess with. 

(I even say "crap" once in a while.)

(When I pray aloud with one or more people, I address God in...

...are you sitting down? 

...Contemporary English!  And what's more,  I think He understands me! 

I think this is a good start! 

[Anonymousguest]

4 hours ago, OodOnTheLoo said:

I remember in the first special they were interviewing Jill about all the questions the family gets asked and she listed, "Are you Pentecostal?" as one of them.  I got the impression they weren't but I wonder what that is code for?

i think they are all thinking they are not just the right, but best kind of kind of Christians.  Actually, all religions do this, right?  Clothes, headwear, lingo, haircuts....using purpose as a verb.

 

If someone is Pentecostal they speak in tongues. But there is a particular denomination, the Pentecostal Holiness , where the women wear long skirts and have uncut hair, and I would guess that's why the Duggars get asked that.

[Palimpsest]

7 hours ago, iweartanktops6 said:

I brought this up in FJ Shelter a couple of months ago, but I'd like to discuss it here, because I think it's an interesting conversation. 

What do fundies say to other fundies to indicate that they are real Christians? Do they have a concise way of stating this? Do they have to be standing with their family in a floor length skirt with eleventy children? 

For example, when the Maxwell* family is out "soul winning," how do they decide who is "saved" and who's not? 

*they might not be the best example but you get the point 

For the extreme Fundies the only true Christian is the one who thinks exactly like them.  It is a lot more complicated than just assessing how people are dressed.  There is a long, long, screening process that goes into doctrine, convictions, and especially female submission before you get accepted as a True Christian.  KJV Only and which Doctrine of Faith you subscribe to are just the tip of the iceberg.  

Accepting Jesus into your heart probably makes you OK to socialize with for the purpose of conversion to the True Faith.  However, tests must be passed to be fully part of the flock.

Check out courtship questionnaires to get an idea of how complicated all this is.  Here is a good one. (Warning: do not open link while eating or drinking and scroll down the page):

http://yoursacredcalling.com/blog/courtship-questions-for-potential-suitors/

 

 

[DomWackTroll]

3 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

 Accepting Jesus into your heart...

 

As soon as the Reformed hear this phrase, they know you're a heretic at worst and "misguided" at best. The good news is that unlike Arminians, they won't even bother to try to convert you. You're already Elect or non-Elect, and they've got hipster beards to grow and artisanal beers to drink. Have fun rotting in hell. 

[Eternalbluepearl]

It's a question I've always had about christians such as the ones we discuss here. With so many differing opinions on what exactly a correct and proper christian is, why even bother? It's too much work, in my opinion, to try to out-holy others with every single thing you say, wear, do, and think. Like, who cares? Life has to be about more than following (made-up) rules that will get you to heaven.

[Palimpsest]

33 minutes ago, DomWackTroll said:

As soon as the Reformed hear this phrase, they know you're a heretic at worst and "misguided" at best. The good news is that unlike Arminians, they won't even bother to try to convert you. You're already Elect or non-Elect, and they've got hipster beards to grow and artisanal beers to drink. Have fun rotting in hell. 

A perfect example of how complicated all this is!

[docmom]

4 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

Check out courtship questionnaires to get an idea of how complicated all this is.  Here is a good one. (Warning: do not open link while eating or drinking and scroll down the page):

http://yoursacredcalling.com/blog/courtship-questions-for-potential-suitors/

The question about abortion in the case of rape is, of course, a trick.  There is no such thing as pregnancy as a result of rape.

Wow, that questionnaire!  Any half-way normal guy would run, fast, in the opposite direction.  Actually, I could use it as a way to screen out potential suitors.  Anyone willing to engage in the questionnaire for more than a minute would be out.

[Palimpsest]

11 minutes ago, docmom said:

The question about abortion in the case of rape is, of course, a trick.  There is no such thing as pregnancy as a result of rape.

Wow, that questionnaire!  Any half-way normal guy would run, fast, in the opposite direction.  Actually, I could use it as a way to screen out potential suitors.  Anyone willing to engage in the questionnaire for more than a minute would be out.

Yes, it is loaded with trick questions and written in restricted code.  One of my favorites is "How do you relate to authority in your life? If so, what adjectives would your employers use to describe you?"

Sounds like a non sequitur but Authority apparently = paid work for someone other than your father!

There are a couple of threads discussing this and other courtship questionnaires here if anyone needs another rabbit hole to fall down.  We can ready the rescue ferrets on request.

[Florita]

The first question might be, "What church does your family attend?" That will likely tell them all they need to know.

[Gimme a Free RV]

53 minutes ago, Eternalbluepearl said:

It's a question I've always had about christians such as the ones we discuss here. With so many differing opinions on what exactly a correct and proper christian is, why even bother? It's too much work, in my opinion, to try to out-holy others with every single thing you say, wear, do, and think. Like, who cares? Life has to be about more than following (made-up) rules that will get you to heaven.

It is more.  Much more and only God sees the heart.  My mother is the most saintly person on earth I know.  She professes to be a Christian and her daily life attests to that.  However, only God truly knows her heart.  It would be wrong for me, as a Christian, to determine who is and isn't going to hell based on a list of actions or humanly-appointed thoughts and behaviors.  I can't imagine, for example, that God is at all pleased with people like John Shrader, PP and Zsu, and the like telling Christians that they are going to hell.

While I agree with the argument that if you are a saved, follower of Christ, it will show in your daily life, I also remember the thief on the cross beside Jesus who didn't have time to prove his faith in Jesus.  With his life running out, he asked Jesus to remember him when He got to heaven.  Jesus assured him that he would be with Him in paradise.  (Holy moley!  The thief didn't have time to recite the Apostle's Creed, get baptized, walk down a church aisle, go shopping for the right kind of modest clothing, or even witness to the lost!  Yet, Jesus assured him of his salvation.)

[Mrsaztx]

Omg that questionnaire "outside the bible, what are your favorite books?" Because of course the bible must be your favorite book. It can't be "yes I enjoy studying the bible and living by the principals laid out within it, but to unwind after a long day I really like a good mystery". Nope, bible, for all your reading needs. 

"Do you have a weight problem? Are you a vegetarian?" It seems like this comes up literally on any first date for normal people, and it goes something like this "what are you having? The burger looks good." "I'm probably going to have the pesto, I'm a vegetarian" done. See how useful dating can be? For most people it's really not used solely as an orgy of the flesh. Ugh! You people and your insanity!

[iweartanktops]

5 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

For the extreme Fundies the only true Christian is the one who thinks exactly like them.  It is a lot more complicated than just assessing how people are dressed.  There is a long, long, screening process that goes into doctrine, convictions, and especially female submission before you get accepted as a True Christian.  KJV Only and which Doctrine of Faith you subscribe to are just the tip of the iceberg.  

Accepting Jesus into your heart probably makes you OK to socialize with for the purpose of conversion to the True Faith.  However, tests must be passed to be fully part of the flock.

Check out courtship questionnaires to get an idea of how complicated all this is.  Here is a good one. (Warning: do not open link while eating or drinking and scroll down the page):

http://yoursacredcalling.com/blog/courtship-questions-for-potential-suitors/

 

 

Wow.  OR people could just get to know one another. That was absurd. I'll add more thoughts later. 

[FundiesInParis]

5 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

Check out courtship questionnaires to get an idea of how complicated all this is.  Here is a good one. (Warning: do not open link while eating or drinking and scroll down the page):

http://yoursacredcalling.com/blog/courtship-questions-for-potential-suitors/

 

 

Wow, what a list. I don't even know the answers to all of these things for my fiance and we've been together for almost 4 years now.

[quiversR4hunting]

32 minutes ago, Gimme a Free RV said:

It is more.  Much more and only God sees the heart.  My mother is the most saintly person on earth I know.  She professes to be a Christian and her daily life attests to that.  However, only God truly knows her heart.  It would be wrong for me, as a Christian, to determine who is and isn't going to hell based on a list of actions or humanly-appointed thoughts and behaviors.  I can't imagine, for example, that God is at all pleased with people like John Shrader, PP and Zsu, and the like telling Christians that they are going to hell.

While I agree with the argument that if you are a saved, follower of Christ, it will show in your daily life, I also remember the thief on the cross beside Jesus who didn't have time to prove his faith in Jesus.  With his life running out, he asked Jesus to remember him when He got to heaven.  Jesus assured him that he would be with Him in paradise.  (Holy moley!  The thief didn't have time to recite the Apostle's Creed, get baptized, walk down a church aisle, go shopping for the right kind of modest clothing, or even witness to the lost!  Yet, Jesus assured him of his salvation.)

No matter anyone's religion or non-religion you show you are a good human by your daily actions. I agree with you on so many points. I also don't think God is pleased with so-called Christians telling other Christians or religions they are all wrong and horrible and going to hell.

To the bold, this is why I believe that God could decide to interview at heaven's gate and maybe you can still get in. The key is, we don't know what will happen when we die.

Have you (general sense) seen the guy on the train take his shirt off and put it on a shirtless homeless man and give the man his hat, too. We will never know if that one act of mercy and compassion is what puts that giving man in heaven. That guy did exactly what the good Samaritan did in the Bible. And Jesus talks about the feeding the hungry and clothing the naked (Matthew 25:31-46).

We all have to have faith in something (there is a god, isn't a god, etc) and most people try and be the best person you can be and to do that you do it through works. as the preacher that confronted PP said, we do it through mercy, justice, etc.

I don't agree with PP about being saved once and then you go murder someone and then you can still get into heaven. If that is true, then why would we need to follow all of PP's (man made) rules? If he thinks we say the magic word, we are saved and when we die we will be in heaven, then why does he care if someone says the magic words and then has an abortion or does NFP or uses the pill or is Catholic or converts to Islam?

How can any of these people read Matthew 25:31-46 or Luke 10:25-37 (the good Samaritan) and still say you don't have to be a good human being to make it into heaven? (I also believe non-believers will be in heaven because I believe we are all God's children but I have rambled long enough and probably not making any sense.)

 

[QuiverDance]

Quote

The question about abortion in the case of rape is, of course, a trick.  There is no such thing as pregnancy as a result of rape.

Because women's bodies have ways of "shutting that down."  Eyeroll.  What limp brained politician said that?  I've forgotten.

NVM.  It was Todd Akin.  

[Gimme a Free RV]

1 hour ago, QuiverDance said:

Because women's bodies have ways of "shutting that down."  Eyeroll.  What limp brained politician said that?  I've forgotten.

NVM.  It was Todd Akin.  

SERIOUSLY?  Someone thinks rape can't result in pregnancy?  Interesting, since I've heard interviews with children who were the products of rape and mothers who, in spite of getting pregnant from rape, decided to keep their babies.

Tell me I'm understanding this wrong.

[quiversR4hunting]

11 minutes ago, Gimme a Free RV said:

SERIOUSLY?  Someone thinks rape can't result in pregnancy?  Interesting, since I've heard interviews with children who were the products of rape and mothers who, in spite of getting pregnant from rape, decided to keep their babies.

Tell me I'm understanding this wrong.

Here is a summary, by the NY Times, of Todd Akin's take on rape and conception from rape.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/21/us/politics/rep-todd-akin-legitimate-rape-statement-and-reaction.html

[GenerationCedarchip]

3 hours ago, DomWackTroll said:

As soon as the Reformed hear this phrase, they know you're a heretic at worst and "misguided" at best. The good news is that unlike Arminians, they won't even bother to try to convert you. You're already Elect or non-Elect, and they've got hipster beards to grow and artisanal beers to drink. Have fun rotting in hell. 

Having grown up uber-Reformed, I had to smile. Reformed won't try to convert you, but the good ones will pray for you. The unkind ones will just smirk.

Seriously, though, there's a whole host of code words. Someone mentioned the "Where do you go to church?" question and that definitely is part of it. And then there are the words and phrases that just pop up over and over again, and that differs in different parts of fundie. Cloak n Dagger and a few others on here could probably chime in with more, but I know that in VF/Reformed circles, you could often spot a fellow traveler by things they did or said. Most folks I knew dressed on the conservative side of normal, though there were some denim frumper types among us (the 90s/early 2000s were a hard fashion time in my corner of fundie.)

However, you would hear words and phrases such as "providence", "courtship" (or better yet, "godly courtship"), "sweet fellowship", "like-minded believers", and "saved by grace" thrown around often. And if you were in someone's home, expect to see books such as So Much More, When You Rise Up, The Excellent Wife, Beautiful Girlhood, Calvin's Institutes, or pretty much anything by Elisabeth Elliot, R.C. Sproul (Sr.), Bahnsen and John Piper sitting around.  There are more "tells", but those were the first that sprang to mind.  I'd consider some of those typical of reformed folks in general and not just the fundie extreme. 
 

 

[OodOnTheLoo]

2 hours ago, docmom said:

The question about abortion in the case of rape is, of course, a trick.  There is no such thing as pregnancy as a result of rape.

Wow, that questionnaire!  Any half-way normal guy would run, fast, in the opposite direction.  Actually, I could use it as a way to screen out potential suitors.  Anyone willing to engage in the questionnaire for more than a minute would be out.

I wonder if this is the questionairre Jill used on Derick before she gave away pieces of her heart to him.