What to say to a fundy-lite friend?

[princessmahina]

22 hours ago, manda b said:

I was doing good to get dressed and be at school on time...

No joke. Then again, I still feel the same way and I'm a 23 year old graduate student...

[carebaer]

On 12/27/2015 at 2:25 PM, QuittersTry said:

Pope Francis is actually working quite diligently to help divorced Catholics stay in good standing with the church. Most divorces do not qualify for annulments, divorcees lusting or having a sexual relationship out of marriage is a sin, you can't take communion if you are sinning, not taking communion/not honoring the Sabbath every Sunday is a sin. So you can see how potentially good Catholics get stuck in "sin limbo" upon divorce.

Not attending Sunday mass is a sin. However, there is nothing sinful about attending mass and not taking communion.  Outside of the US, it's actually quite common to see several people at mass not go forward for communion.  A Catholic priest would most likely tell such a divorcee to go to confession, refrain from sinful behavior, and then take communion.  But not taking communion because one has committed a sin does not add to the list of ones sins.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Quick thought:

Is it possible that the daughter was so anxious to get married not because of fundy religious reasons, but because she's desperate for a way out of a toxic home environment?

If the friend's marriage is that bad, the boyfriend may be the daughter's escape route (in her mind).

[2xx1xy1JD]

Try focusing on the fact that she's NOT a hypocrite, and that she's actually shown great commitment to her particular values of responsibility and commitment, in the face of some pretty tough challenges, without using age as an excuse.

Sample conversation:

"You know, I don't think you are a hypocrite at all.  Getting married young isn't a core value for you.  Taking full responsibility for your actions and your commitments, though, has always been really important for you.  You were really young and scared, but you still went through with the pregnancy and raised your daughter.  You were only 17 when you got married and you did it under duress because of the pregnancy, but you decided to keep your commitment even though it's been really hard and other people - including me - would have left.  I've never seen you use "I was young and stupid" as an excuse to get out of an obligation.  You take your family responsibilities very, very seriously.

Your daughter sees that.  You can talk to her about what a huge step marriage is in your faith.  Some people might allow kids to make mistakes in their relationships and then move on, but that's not what marriage is about for you.  In your faith, it's about commitment for life, for better or for worse, and it's also about being open to the possibility of having children.  I think that you'd be absolutely consistent with your most deeply held beliefs if you stress to her that this is a HUGE step, with a really big commitment to a husband and potentially children, and you want her to be absolutely prepared to make that commitment.  It's not just about saying yes or not to her, but about helping her to think through the big issues - religion, finances, future goals, respect, etc."

That might be both supportive and honest.

[Jingerbread]

On 12/30/2015 at 3:27 AM, Mama Mia said:

You seem to have REALLY strong opinions about this. Given how vehmenently oppose you are to teen/ young marriage and parenting I'm really surprised you've been able to keep your feelings from your friend. 

Im curious as to why you are so upset at the idea that parents would help support their young   Adult children and their kids - if it is desired by all involved? Childcare , in particular, is often provided by extended family, or switched off between spouses. In my area it is not all that uncommon for multiple generations to live together - on purpose! Or for the middle aged grandparents to provide the extras,  grand and great grands to provide childcare ---and know their kids will Help them with what they need . As long as the young parents are working towards something, and not just partying, what is wrong with that?  

This is kind of hypocritical.  I'm so opposed to this for one of the same reasons a lot of people on this forum are against other fundy teens getting married, and that's supporting the babies.  Even if the Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar are willing to support their married kids and grandkids, is that really a good thing?  They will probably die before their kids.  Then what?  You've got a lot of kids born to people who don't know how to support them, and a lot of hungry children.

I guess you didn't read all my posts.  For the sake of this marriage, her daughter has decided not to go to medical school.  She's given up on what she's worked toward for a few years now, busted her ass off to take accelerated science classes, and that's gone.  She's not working toward anything but punching out babies.  She and her parents had a fight yesterday because she wants to quit school without even graduating.  Is that what you think is working toward something?  The boy doesn't have career goals either.  My friend is very worried she'll have to provide complete financial support for her daughter and the other kids and be raising their babies.  

I think it's very stupid to not be against that marriage. They're kids with no ambitions anymore, no jobs, at least the daughter fighting whether or not she should finish high school, no way to support themselves or provide for a baby, and they're wanting to race to start having babies they can't support, and at least one extended family can't afford to be paying the rent and bills for these kids and I don't if his family is able and willing.

When my friend and her husband got married, her husband was working, and that was back when minimum wage went farther, and he was able to support them.  Starting when they got married, they lived in an apartment he paid for.  They were proud to do it themselves.  These kids wanting to get married are going about it like it's a game of playing house, only with real babies, and the bills going to their parents.

There's a snowball's chance in hell of me thinking that this marriage is a good idea, and I care so much because this is a kid who, except a couple years, I've watched grow up.  This is a kid I love.  So I'm going to be upset that she's throwing away her ambitions and everything to be a baby-machine for babies those kids can't support.

There's a good thing to come out of this.  My friend and her husband have become united on something for once.  

[Anonymousguest]

Imho, signing for an underage child to get married is not supporting their child, is shirking parental responsibility. It's our job as parents to help our children make wise decisions. I personally can't think of any circumstance that would make me think a marriage for a teen not yet graduated from high school is a good idea. It becomes a different issue once the kids are adults and high school graduates, and while I would still suggest they wait a bit, I would support them  ( not financially) if they married. I know my parents in law were opposed to dh and I being married when we did, but we were already living on our own and supporting ourselves, what could they do? 

[Peas n carrots]

@Jingerbread you noted the daughter had once wanted to go to medical school and had ambitions, but she now doesn't even want to graduate high school. Granted I am only going on what you have said, but from my armchair I'm wondering if she is depressed and sees marrying her bf and starting a family so young as a ticket to happiness? It's such a radical change for someone to go through I can't help but to wonder why she is giving up on her dream?

I'm with others who have noted this could be a situation that resolves itself. How does the priest feel or the BF's and pastor feel about marrying such a young couple? Will they even allow it? If they do a Catholic wedding the pre-Cana is usually a requisite to getting married in the church. My home diocese has a required weekend retreat, where my BFF stated she personally saw two engagements fall apart in the group sessions - that could very well happen to this young couple!

[Jingerbread]

Her mom said she thinks her daughter is having fantasies of happily ever after with a husband, white picket fence, and a bunch of perfect kids, but isn't thinking about the work it takes.  Her daughter didn't think she'd ever find someone who wants to marry her because of a resolved medical issue (leukemia as a child, and "I had cancer as a kid" can drive potential suitors away fast).  She's not sure if her daughter's jumping at the chance to get married that she didn't think she'd get or what.  Her daughter and husband are actually close.  It's the rest of the family he's awful to.  Daughter doesn't like hearing the fights, but she's not the recipient.  She's the only kid whose education he even cares about.  She's the kid he bothered having hopes for.

They wouldn't get married in the Catholic church.  He boy told her she needs to convert to his denomination.  So they'd have a good ol' Southern Baptist wedding, and his wants to have it at his grandparents' house in the bible belt.  But there are still no plans for where to live.  I did find out his parents, who favor the wedding, won't let them live there since they don't have room, and the think my friend and her husband should allow the kids to live there since the daughter has her own bedroom already.  It's becoming a bigger mess, and the daughter is re-resolved to marry him, even though she was uncomfortable about converting and leaving her own church.

I don't know what her priest thinks about this yet, or what her relationship is with him.

[Peas n carrots]

Her mom said she thinks her daughter is having fantasies of happily ever after with a husband, white picket fence, and a bunch of perfect kids, but isn't thinking about the work it takes.  Her daughter didn't think she'd ever find someone who wants to marry her because of a resolved medical issue (leukemia as a child, and "I had cancer as a kid" can drive potential suitors away fast).  She's not sure if her daughter's jumping at the chance to get married that she didn't think she'd get or what.  Her daughter and husband are actually close.  It's the rest of the family he's awful to.  Daughter doesn't like hearing the fights, but she's not the recipient.  She's the only kid whose education he even cares about.  She's the kid he bothered having hopes for.

They wouldn't get married in the Catholic church.  He boy told her she needs to convert to his denomination.  So they'd have a good ol' Southern Baptist wedding, and his wants to have it at his grandparents' house in the bible belt.  But there are still no plans for where to live.  I did find out his parents, who favor the wedding, won't let them live there since they don't have room, and the think my friend and her husband should allow the kids to live there since the daughter has her own bedroom already.  It's becoming a bigger mess, and the daughter is re-resolved to marry him, even though she was uncomfortable about converting and leaving her own church.

I don't know what her priest thinks about this yet, or what her relationship is with him.

I wonder if the BF's parents are really just looking to unload a child? It seems like your friend and her husband will likely have to pick up the slack in the financial department for the young couple - has there been a meeting of the parents where they discussed how this is all supposed to work?

I feel for your friend's daughter - I remember being that age and thinking I would be forever alone. You just don't have enough life experience to have any perspective, and not everyone gets that as they age either! But I see your friend, daughter and family keep on having to make compromises and it seems they are giving little ground (or at least it hasn't been brought up if they have).

@jingerbread fingers crossed this situation will resolve itself soon!

[Howl]

Echoing many of the posts above.  The main thing here is that boy does not have any means of supporting the family (nor presumably does the girl) and doesn't seem to have a strategy in that regard. It isn't an issue of age or religion or parent's age of marriage.  It is a practical issue that they shouldn't marry until they know how to support themselves.  For a start, yes, Where will they live?   If (when) the girl starts having babies, that means no college for either kid. 

Sadly, it boils down to these kids getting married to have sex, because fundies. 

The best option is likely to be the neutral supportive friend, but a friend that says, this isn't about you marrying young, it's a practical issue of what lies ahead for a couple the marries so very young but has no strategic plan for say, the next 5 years, to support themselves and their (likely) babies. 

I know your friend is hurting, but she needs to be strong.  By signing off on the marriage, she's making a huge decision that will affect her daughter for the rest of her life.  It's OK to say, You must wait until you graduate high school, because that's the reasonable thing to do.  You must wait until you graduate high school, because you're asking me to support and shelter you and your husband and I'm unwilling to do that.  It's mandatory to sit down with the daughter and future SiL, require them to come up with a budget with transportation, food, housing, health insurance, expenses and ask for details on how both plan to support themselves and a timeline on how that will play out. Because one of the key elements in communication in marriage is how to handle money.  

Jeeeze, so many red flags waving over this marriage idea that it's painful to even contemplate.  

[Peas n carrots]

Echoing many of the posts above.  The main thing here is that boy does not have any means of supporting the family (nor presumably does the girl) and doesn't seem to have a strategy in that regard. It isn't an issue of age or religion or parent's age of marriage.  It is a practical issue that they shouldn't marry until they know how to support themselves.  For a start, yes, Where will they live?   If (when) the girl starts having babies, that means no college for either kid. 

Sadly, it boils down to these kids getting married to have sex, because fundies. 

The best option is likely to be the neutral supportive friend, but a friend that says, this isn't about you marrying young, it's a practical issue of what lies ahead for a couple the marries so very young but has no strategic plan for say, the next 5 years, to support themselves and their (likely) babies. 

I know your friend is hurting, but she needs to be strong.  By signing off on the marriage, she's making a huge decision that will affect her daughter for the rest of her life.  It's OK to say, You must wait until you graduate high school, because that's the reasonable thing to do.  You must wait until you graduate high school, because you're asking me to support and shelter you and your husband and I'm unwilling to do that.  It's mandatory to sit down with the daughter and future SiL, require them to come up with a budget with transportation, food, housing, health insurance, expenses and ask for details on how both plan to support themselves and a timeline on how that will play out. Because one of the key elements in communication in marriage is how to handle money.  

Jeeeze, so many red flags waving over this marriage idea that it's painful to even contemplate.  

Agreed, someone needs to be the asshole and just say no to the marriage for now. I don't think it is asking too much of the daughter to wait until she graduates. We had a similar situation in my school, where a really young couple wanted to marry but the mom made a deal with her that she had to wait until she graduated and she could get married the summer after she was done. She in fact did that, and over 15 years later the couple is still together. It's possible for these relationships to work out, but I know the gal I went to school with didn't immediately have kids and went to community college - the SIL and daughter need to lay the groundwork for a successful marriage before they get married.

Plus, I'm still convinced the SIL's parents are only looking for a way to get off the hook for supporting a kid rather than supporting a marriage. That attitude alone speaks volumes.

[Howl]

1 hour ago, Peas n carrots said:

the SIL and daughter need to lay the groundwork for a successful marriage before they get married.

THIS times eleventy. 

Also, doing some math, the fundy friend is only 32 (married at 16, daughter is 16).  She is still relatively young in her own life.  As a friend you could offer her some different ways of looking at the situation, while being supportive and non-judgemental. 

[2xx1xy1JD]

As far as advice for your friend in handling this with her daughter, I'd suggest she act like my folks and use Relentless Logic^TM.

Avoid any raised voices, ultimatums, etc. and don't fight.  If the daughter raises her voice, don't respond but simply say, "you seem to be upset.  What's really bothering you?"  [Yes, this is arguably tone policing, and it can be annoying, but it's also really effective.]  Instead of just saying "no", ask the daughter practical questions.  Can they prepare a budget?  Do they have a 5 year plan? 

As for you - if you are close with this girl, can you take her for lunch and have a heart-to-heart with her, simply asking about her feelings and why she is set on marrying so quickly?  Again, no raised voices or judgment.  Since you aren't her mother, could you quietly and gently ask how she feels about her home environment?  Kids can love their parents and not be the direct target of abuse, and still be harmed by exposure to conflict.    Home should be a comfortable safe haven, but hearing the fights might be profoundly unpleasant and tie her in knots emotionally.  Is she longing to be in a place where she is loved and where there is a home filled with love instead of conflict?  She may not be able to have that conversation with her mother, but maybe she would be comfortable enough to admit it to you.  If so, maybe you can talk about how going away to college can be a great opportunity to get away AND to get the skills to support herself and stand on her own.

[Peas n carrots]

Oh wow that's write @jingerbread's friend is really young. Younger than me young! Life is certainly not over for her and her crappy marriage.

Agree with 2xx1xyy1JD you may have an opportunity as a close outsider to have an open, honest discussion with her about home and the nuptials.

[sockinshoe]

Why is your friend's husband so into this? Doesn't he have the "no man is good enough for my little girl" instinct (I know my dad has it, and he's secular)? Why is he suddenly giving up his dreams for his daughter? Imo, he seems like the pin holding this planned marriage together, for his daughter's side. The groom's parents also seem to be an issue. Maybe your friend could try to get through to them by talking about the expenses this match will incur, her daughter's prior ambition, and their son's lack of ability to support a growing family. They can't argue with the facts.r

[Howl]

On 12/31/2015 at 8:40 AM, 2xx1xy1JD said:

Quick thought:

Is it possible that the daughter was so anxious to get married not because of fundy religious reasons, but because she's desperate for a way out of a toxic home environment?

If the friend's marriage is that bad, the boyfriend may be the daughter's escape route (in her mind).

Just keep coming back to this as a likely motivation for the daughter. 

[Mama Mia]

On December 31, 2015 at 0:19 PM, Jingerbread said:

This is kind of hypocritical.  I'm so opposed to this for one of the same reasons a lot of people on this forum are against other fundy teens getting married, and that's supporting the babies.  Even if the Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar are willing to support their married kids and grandkids, is that really a good thing?  They will probably die before their kids.  Then what?  You've got a lot of kids born to people who don't know how to support them, and a lot of hungry children.

I guess you didn't read all my posts.  For the sake of this marriage, her daughter has decided not to go to medical school.  She's given up on what she's worked toward for a few years now, busted her ass off to take accelerated science classes, and that's gone.  She's not working toward anything but punching out babies.  She and her parents had a fight yesterday because she wants to quit school without even graduating.  Is that what you think is working toward something?  The boy doesn't have career goals either.  My friend is very worried she'll have to provide complete financial support for her daughter and the other kids and be raising their babies.  

I think it's very stupid to not be against that marriage. They're kids with no ambitions anymore, no jobs, at least the daughter fighting whether or not she should finish high school, no way to support themselves or provide for a baby, and they're wanting to race to start having babies they can't support, and at least one extended family can't afford to be paying the rent and bills for these kids and I don't if his family is able and willing.

When my friend and her husband got married, her husband was working, and that was back when minimum wage went farther, and he was able to support them.  Starting when they got married, they lived in an apartment he paid for.  They were proud to do it themselves.  These kids wanting to get married are going about it like it's a game of playing house, only with real babies, and the bills going to their parents.

There's a snowball's chance in hell of me thinking that this marriage is a good idea, and I care so much because this is a kid who, except a couple years, I've watched grow up.  This is a kid I love.  So I'm going to be upset that she's throwing away her ambitions and everything to be a baby-machine for babies those kids can't support.

There's a good thing to come out of this.  My friend and her husband have become united on something for once.  

I absolutely agree that this particular marriage seems like an absolutely horrible idea. For a large variety of reasons - top of the list for me would be the complete 180 on life dreams for the girl. A close second would be the incredibly weird religious fundamentalism - but of two different beliefs. It seems, to me, that there is something very serious going on with that girl if she is changing every deep belief and goal she's ever had so quickly. I know teens are prone to sudden identity shifts - but this, taken all together-  seems concerning . Even for a horny, in- love teen. If it  is all due to being caught in the throes of first love - all the more reason to wait a year or two  (  hey, it's the real life  Sound of Music  " sixteen  going  on  seventeen" song!)   So things can settle  down .  If all the philosophical changes are  due to something  else, hopefully that will become  clear during that wait  as well.  As  usual, 2xx1y1jd    Advice  on how to approach the topic is amazingly  excellent. 

Where I was questioning you is in the vehement disagreement with parents ever supporting / helping out young married couples and their children. I can see the issue if there is no plan for the younger generation to find work and/ or complete their education. That can easily lead to a very overburdened middle aged grandparent situation. But if it's that the younger couple and kids live with the parents, or the grandparents or extended family  provide childcare , or  they help out some financially, if they are able, why is that a bad thing? In my world that's seen more as having a close family.  Not  everyone does it, certainly, but most parents of young children , in my experience , benefit from some help with those things. At  least for awhile.  Even not so young parents.  For reference , I live in an  insanely expensive area of the country, which I'm sure has a lot to do with it.  The area is also strongly Latino based, culturally,  and it is my understanding that  there is is more of an interdependence  vs  independence bias in extended family  structure. 

That doesn't mean the younger couple shouldn't be working towards something, of course they should. Just this whole " do it 100% on their own- or they are doing it wrong" idea is completely foreign to me. In the current child raising generation of my extended family - all the parents work. Only one has never lived with extended family or relied on them for primary childcare.  Another lived with parents throughout pregnancy and first  year  of child's life and then got their own place. One has her mother and younger sibling living with her family - providing childcare. One has great grandparent caring for child. Another lives on property of kids grandparent ( paying rent) , and grandparent provides childcare half time.  All of those are seen  as good situations, and they are seen as fortunate to have family available to help.  If parents can help out financially, and it's needed , that happens too. On the other side of that- that younger generation helps care for elderly relatives, or runs errands, or does the physical  fix- it type jobs. 

I became severely disabled a few years ago.One of the hardest things for me is that I can't help my kids by providing childcare. I was really looking forward to that, and only got to help a little with the oldest couple of grandkids. And can't help financially. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jingerbread]

MamaMia, what I'm against, when it comes to parents helping out their kids, is when kids are having kids with no means of supporting themselves to any degree at all.  It's when kids have kids, and their entire plan is to have their parents pay the bills, even if the parents aren't wanting to.  We snark on the Jessa and Ben for having kids while being financially dependent on her dad.  Why is it okay to snark that, but not be against kids who are planning to start having kids for their already-struggling parents to support?

There's also a difference between help when needed and planning on total reliance by choice.  What the kids in this situation are planning to do is total reliance without the willing participation of any of their parents at this point.  This isn't occasional help with a bill, or babysitting help to go to work.  The 100% total plan is to have babies and live with their parents, neither set who is willing or able to support a kid's spouse and the expenses of babies.

Only a fool wouldn't see the problems here.

The shit hit the fan a couple days ago.  My friend's husband's cousin (I didn't know they were cousins, and the woman is now no longer a friend of mine over what happened here) has decided her unschooled 11-year-old should have total say over her "educational plan," and where this came from is the girl went to her mom and said she thinks school (UNschool) is holding her back, and she wants to stop and spend more time watching anime and drawing (she likes to do anime-style doodles), and her mom thinks this is her daughter showing drive, and so she's literally stopping all education (however much UNschool can be considered education at all) and is so proud of her daughter's insight.  We're ex-friends because I told her in that letting a tween quit school is stunting their future and it's even illegal where she is.  She swears I just don't understand that a basic education (some reading, addition, and subtraction) is all that's needed to navigate the adult world.  Big fight because she wanted me to acknowledge that her kid really does have the skills needed and is making an intelligent decision, and I wouldn't.  She ended a few friendships over this.

Anyway, the bride-to-be's dad's cousin letting her daughter quit school altogether inspired her, and if her dad won't sign the license permission, they won't be able to make her go back to school, and the boy's following her.  So if their parents don't sign, they're going to not go to school at all.  So now a wedding date has been set for next month, and no one knows what to do about the living situation of a couple kids who have no employment plans and are only going to school at all now as part of a deal, and who are openly planning to start having babies right away.  My friend's freaking out because she and her husband really can't afford to support more people, and the boy's parents won't let them stay there because of the sleeping arrangement.  This isn't my friend "helping" her daughter.  It's her being forced, against her will, into supporting some kids and their future kid when there isn't the income for it.

If MamaMia wants to have a problem with me being in vehement disagreement with this situation, I'm not going to care.  The parents involved are in stronger disagreement.  They aren't offering help.  They're being forced, against their will, to provide total support.

[Mrsaztx]

i guess the party is over and done with, but I have a suggestion for your friend (who is not a hypocrite for using her life to learn life lessons, smh), suggest that she sit down with the daughter and "fiancé" and discuss how, purely from a practica standpoint, you would like to know exactly how he plans to support his new family which will apparently be a wife and child within a year of the wedding. Sit down and make a realistic budget, and decide how much money he will need to be bringing in in order to pay for them, making sure health insurance is also on the list because she can't have her grandchildren not being able to go to the doctor. Then let them both know that she will be willing to sign for this marriage when he has 6 months of employment under his belt that will fit within those monetary goals, and also that he has an acceptable home in order for them with all the fees and down payments that come with turning on utilities, first and last month's rent, etc. Say you expect in those six months for him to be putting aside what money he would be spending on her and the child into a savings account and living on his portion only. If he can do that, and show her the progress, she will agree to the marriage. If not then he is obviously not ready for a wife and child.

[Mrsaztx]

and hopefully both sets of parents will explain that once these children are married they will be tossed out of the house, because they have decided they are adults and they will be treated as such, and in the meantime, to help them prepare, parents aren't going to pay for anything but food and shelter as is required by the state as parents to minor children. They will hand over their phones, keys to any vehicles, and will begin paying their portion of the cable and Internet bills to the parents. Perhaps they should both work on getting jobs because with no credit to pay for an apartment they'll need first and last month's rent, and typically 2 months of all utilities upfront, which will easily run around $3k in a moderately priced area. Point out they should also start checking craigslist for furniture because sleeping on the floor is unpleasant, especially in the winter.

[Anonymousguest]

What? The girl threatens to drop out of school if her parents didn't sign for her to get married, and the parents thought that being married, pregnant and most likely still a high school drop out was a better option? And have agreed to support then financially?

If they agree for her to get married than they deserve to take care of her, the child groom and any of offspring. Just say no! No I won't sign, even if you throw a big fit and make threats. If someone is going to act like a toddler I sure as heck wouldn't let them get married. 

 

[Jingerbread]

I haven't talked to her in a couple days.  She was bawling her eyes and freaking like I've never heard from her over the phone.  I don't think six months of work and then signing will work when the kids are both threatening to leave school now because the girl's dad's stupid as hell cousin's letting her 11-year-old do it (they're atheists, so it's not even a religious stay-at-home-baby-brooder thing).  I don't even know what she's going to do now.  She and I both thought her husband signing later on, after a year or whatever it was, and the girl not being comfortable about the religious change was going to maybe make this thing peter out.

The only positive in this mess is she and her husband are still united.  This is the longest they've gone without him being an ass.  Maybe getting a taste of someone else mentally whipping you around's given him a taste of it?

I don't know yet if they're going to sign or the the boy's parents, of what.  I think there'd be less harm in letting them quit school, throw their fits, hopefully not have a baby, get it our of their systems, and maybe lose a semester or two of high school, then go back to school.  I'm just giving her space and letting her call me with updates.  No one saw any of this coming.

[Mrsaztx]

Since all these people act like religion is important can someone point out that there's a whole commandment about not being a twit to your parents? And aren't the commandments like the top, hard and fast rules?

[Tim-Tom Biblethumper]

These kids are controlling the parents, when the parents are the ones holding all the cards.  The kids will keep manipulating the parents until the parents start playing their hand.  jmo

[2xx1xy1JD]

Honestly, signing the form is basically TEACHING the kids that the best and only way to get what you want is to throw a tantrum.

It is works this time, she'll keep using it.  Why wouldn't she?  No need to develop any adult living skills - just throw a fit to get your parents to provide housing, to get them to pay for all expenses if you have a baby, threaten to without access to future baby if they don't buy the right stuff or place any demands on them, etc.

If your friend wants to truly help her daughter, she needs to encourage adult habits.  Sit her down.  Give her the tools to make a budget.  Have her go through all categories, research realistic prices for expenses, and plan for what a realistic income might be.  If they would need some support - figure out how much, for how long, and what the plan would be to achieve financial independence.

I do know people who got help from parents.  The difference is that the help was voluntary, and it was given to help the children finish school, get established in their career or get a house (I'm in a high COL area).  The help was like training wheels - designed to be removed so that the child can go off on their own.